Is Dragon Ball cynical at its core?

[Cure Dragon 255]

I love how my post was ignored. And people do call out Goku's bullshit. You just go and ignore it. Why dont you ignore the whiny fans that think that DB is too cynical? THEY are the cynical ones. More than DB ever was.

[WittyUsername]

I love how my post was ignored. And people do call out Goku's bullshit. You just go and ignore it. Why dont you ignore the whiny fans that think that DB is too cynical? THEY are the cynical ones. More than DB ever was.

I didn’t ignore your post. I got what you said. The problem is that in light of Super, I’ve become more inclined to think that these fans might have a point.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

It is. Super amplified it with the Tournament of Power being the most blatant example, but it was there for the most part in the original run as well. Tavarano made a great point about it somewhere in this forum and while I feel some of it is exaggerated, I mostly agree with that take. I guess that is Toriyama's charm lol.

[ABED]

If Freeza tried to destroy the Earth from space, Goku wouldn’t have had anyway of stopping him, because unlike Freeza, Goku needs oxygen to survive.

Doesn't matter. What matters is HE believes it in that moment.

If there are heroes and villains in Dragon Ball, then why would I want the supposed heroes to be a bunch of sociopaths who are only in it for themselves?

Why do you watch them now? Absolutely nothing has changed. The stakes are higher so it sticks out more but they haven't changed.

[WittyUsername]

Doesn't matter. What matters is HE believes it in that moment.

Freeza already told Goku that he can survive in space, and Goku is fully aware that Freeza is capable of destroying planets.

Why do you watch them now? Absolutely nothing has changed. The stakes are higher so it sticks out more but they haven't changed.

Why do you keep asking me this? I don’t know why I need to keep mentioning this, but I made this thread for the sake of asking a simple question, not because I wanted to rant about how much Dragon Ball sucks. Why are you being so confrontational?

[ABED]

Freeza already told Goku that he can survive in space, and Goku is fully aware that Freeza is capable of destroying planets.

How does this help prove your thesis?

I keep asking because you avoid the question. What are you getting by asking this question? What if we did believe the series to be cynical? Would you care less for it? Are you looking for validation? If you are more and more confident the protagonists are sociopaths or reckless or whatever you want to call them, does that change the way you look at the story? Are you less interested in Dragon Ball because of that?

If I sound like I'm irritated it's because you lost the forest from the trees and arguing minutia with me instead of getting the very simple point that the characters weren't acting out of character and have been putting the world at risk forever. Do the characters act sometimes contradictory to that? Sure, but the fundamental facts ring true regardless. Asking questions like "what if character x raped..." isn't you asking in good faith.

You asked the thread question but to what end?

[MasenkoHA]

]

If there are heroes and villains in Dragon Ball, then why would I want the supposed heroes to be a bunch of sociopaths who are only in it for themselves?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

The good characters are not sociopaths. Sociopaths wouldn’t be upset at lives being lost. If Goku was a sociopath Kurilin’s murder wouldn’t have triggered his transformation to Super Saiyan. If the gang at large were sociopaths they wouldn’t use a wish granting dragon to bring casualities back to life.

They tend to have way too much hubris and are prone to being short sighted. But your insistence that they’re sociopaths is just plain incorrect use of the term.

, but that doesn’t mean that I want the protagonists to be objectively vile people who never get called out for their shittyness.

They’re not objectively vile people.

And honestly there are works of fiction that can make objectively awful vile humans interesting. Dragon Ball isn’t one of them but its also not expecting you to root for vile people.

[WittyUsername]

Freeza already told Goku that he can survive in space, and Goku is fully aware that Freeza is capable of destroying planets.

How does this help prove your thesis?

I keep asking because you avoid the question. What are you getting by asking this question? What if we did believe the series to be cynical? Would you care less for it? Are you looking for validation? If you are more and more confident the protagonists are sociopaths or reckless or whatever you want to call them, does that change the way you look at the story? Are you less interested in Dragon Ball because of that?

If I sound like I'm irritated it's because you lost the forest from the trees and arguing minutia with me instead of getting the very simple point that the characters weren't acting out of character and have been putting the world at risk forever. Do the characters act sometimes contradictory to that? Sure, but the fundamental facts ring true regardless. Asking questions like "what if character x raped..." isn't you asking in good faith.

You asked the thread question but to what end?

Why do I have to be getting anything out of this question? This is a forum dedicated to general Dragon Ball discussions. Why should me asking what the consensus is on whether or not Dragon Ball is a cynical series, be crossing the line? I never said jackshit about validation or anything like that. This is a Dragon Ball forum, and I asked a question related to Dragon Ball in order to see what other people thought on the matter, because I thought it would be an interesting question to ask. I certainly don’t want to think of these characters as being bad people.

Also, the reason I asked “what if character x raped” was because you told me that I should have no problem rooting for Dragon Ball characters even if they were sociopaths (which I didn’t definitively claim that they were), which was a baffling thing to say, so I brought up an extreme hypothetical example in order to show how flawed your line of thinking is.

[WittyUsername]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

The good characters are not sociopaths. Sociopaths wouldn’t be upset at lives being lost. If Goku was a sociopath Kurilin’s murder wouldn’t have triggered his transformation to Super Saiyan. If the gang at large were sociopaths they wouldn’t use a wish granting dragon to bring casualities back to life.

They tend to have way too much hubris and are prone to being short sighted. But your insistence that they’re sociopaths is just plain incorrect use of the term.

I never said that I think they’re sociopaths. I said that’s what other people make them out to be, and I wanted to see if that was the popular consensus around here. I certainly don’t want that to be the case.

Also, just so you know, a sociopath can get angry over the death of a friend. I’m not saying Goku is a sociopath, but him being mad that Freeza killed his friend wouldn’t really disprove the notion that he is one.

[ABED]

I also never asked “what if character x raped”.

Yes you damn well did. "Also, are you saying that if Goku was a child rapist, I should be fine with that" and "By your logic, it should be perfectly okay to portray Luke Skywalker as a child rapist. After all, Star Wars is over the top fiction." If you are going to say you didn't say something when you verifiably did, why should I continue talking to you as though you are honest and looking for a sincere discussion? Did you forget you asked me those questions?

[WittyUsername]

I also never asked “what if character x raped”.

Yes you damn well did. "Also, are you saying that if Goku was a child rapist, I should be fine with that" and "By your logic, it should be perfectly okay to portray Luke Skywalker as a child rapist. After all, Star Wars is over the top fiction." If you are going to say you didn't say something when you verifiably did, why should I continue talking to you as though you are honest and looking for a sincere discussion?

That was damn well not the point of those questions. I asked them because you made the baffling suggestion that I should have no problem rooting for terrible people. I edited the post anyway so that what I said would be more clear, and even in the original version of the post, I explained why I brought that stuff up. Why do you need to cherrypick what I say?

Also, why are you even responding to me to begin with, if you believe that we can’t have a sincere discussion? Why did you even comment on this thread to begin with, other than to pick a fight?

[ABED]

I also never asked “what if character x raped”.

Yes you damn well did. "Also, are you saying that if Goku was a child rapist, I should be fine with that" and "By your logic, it should be perfectly okay to portray Luke Skywalker as a child rapist. After all, Star Wars is over the top fiction." If you are going to say you didn't say something when you verifiably did, why should I continue talking to you as though you are honest and looking for a sincere discussion?

That was damn well not the point of those questions. I asked them because you made the baffling suggestion that I should have no problem rooting for terrible people. Also, why are you even responding to me to begin with, if you believe that we can’t have a sincere discussion? Why did you even comment on this thread to begin with, other than to pick a fight?

I didn't begin to pick a fight. I found it baffling that you would ask why you should care about shitty people doing shitty things. Even if I agreed, we don't need characters to do heroic things to find them interesting. You agreed and brought up Breaking Bad because it was on front street, but I've pointed out that DB is very up front about what it is and what the characters goals are. They haven't changed. I tried to understand where you were coming from but the more and more we go on and going back to the DCAU stuff, I'm more and more convinced we shouldn't talk altogether. I'm hoping you might change my mind because I honestly can't understand why if you know the story and the world why you would have a problem with caring about the characters whose fundamental goals haven't changed. You've gotten this far into the series and joined a fan forum, but your phrasing makes it seem like a big issue for you.

I wanted to see if that was the popular consensus around here. I certainly don’t want that to be the case.

But what if he is?

[WittyUsername]

Yes you damn well did. "Also, are you saying that if Goku was a child rapist, I should be fine with that" and "By your logic, it should be perfectly okay to portray Luke Skywalker as a child rapist. After all, Star Wars is over the top fiction." If you are going to say you didn't say something when you verifiably did, why should I continue talking to you as though you are honest and looking for a sincere discussion?

That was damn well not the point of those questions. I asked them because you made the baffling suggestion that I should have no problem rooting for terrible people. Also, why are you even responding to me to begin with, if you believe that we can’t have a sincere discussion? Why did you even comment on this thread to begin with, other than to pick a fight?

I didn't begin to pick a fight. I found it baffling that you would ask why you should care about shitty people doing shitty things. Even if I agreed, we don't need characters to do heroic things to find them interesting. You agreed and brought up Breaking Bad because it was on front street, but I've pointed out that DB is very up front about what it is and what the characters goals are. They haven't changed. I tried to understand where you were coming from but the more and more we go on and going back to the DCAU stuff, I'm more and more convinced we shouldn't talk altogether. I'm hoping you might change my mind because I honestly can't understand why if you know the story and the world why you would have a problem with caring about the characters whose fundamental goals haven't changed. You've gotten this far into the series and joined a fan forum, but your phrasing makes it seem like a big issue for you.

What does the DCAU have to do with anything? I don’t like the DCAU, or Bruce Timm and Paul Dini, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Also, it sounds like you’re suggesting that I shouldn’t question any aspect of Dragon Ball, just because I joined a Dragon Ball fan forum.

My understanding of the characters in Dragon Ball has always been that I think they’re decent people who are willing to do heroic things if the need arises, even if that isn’t what they set out to do. With that said, I have seen fans who have suggested that they’re actually a bunch of selfish bastards who don’t give a shit about the rest of the world, so I wanted to see if that was a popular consensus. I wasn’t looking for validation. I wanted to see what other people’s understanding of these characters was. Why am I not allowed to do that?

But what if he is?

Then I would have to re-evaluate what I thought I knew about the franchise.

[ABED]

You are allowed to do that. I was just not clear about that being your goal.

It's clear from the series that they do care about the world. If their friends and families and even strangers are suffering right in front of them, they will intervene. It's when it's in the future and in the abstract that they don't have an issue being reckless. with the fate of the world. Did it bother you when Goku let Piccolo and Vegeta go?

Also, it sounds like you’re suggesting that I shouldn’t question any aspect of Dragon Ball, just because I joined a Dragon Ball fan forum.

I'm suggesting that anyone who joins a fan forum should know the series well enough that they know what they are a fan of. If you have a misconception about the kind of world it is then you probably should reevaluate.

Apparently it's not abundantly clear through context that the reason I brought up the DCAU discussion we had as an example of why I take issues with your logic and get a little frustrated. This discussion isn't an isolated incident. When you say patently absurd things like the DCAU's use of sexual innuendo as being perverse. I don't want to get off on a tangent so please just understand it was an example of a previous discussion we had.

[WittyUsername]

I always assumed that I knew Dragon Ball pretty well as a martial arts/adventure series about a simple minded but well meaning guy who loves fighting. If I was mistaken on that, and it’s actually a series about selfish people doing selfish things solely to satisfy their own urges, then I suppose I would have to re-evaluate what I thought I knew about the franchise.

In any case, my reason for making this thread wasn’t so that people would agree with me on something. I wanted to see if other people viewed the franchise differently than how I have always viewed it. The thing about works of fiction is that they’re often up to interpretation, even if it’s something as seemingly simple as Dragon Ball. I’d argue that’s part of what has helped the Dragon Ball fandom endure for so long.

Regarding what I previously said about the DCAU, I did acknowledge that I was probably overreacting in regards to how perverted that franchise was. I think I just mostly had a really bad taste in my mouth from The Killing Joke and Batman & Harley Quinn, but I am willing to admit that I was being silly in regards to those cartoons being perverse.

[Lord Beerus]

Considering this is a series where even the most despicable and evil pieces of shit can be guaranteed a spot in heaven, and get the super-special-awesome extra treatment of retaining a body in the afterlife, if they perform at least one incredibly noble deed in their life, and you're still retaining optimism of living a peaceful life even when you've lost everything , I think it's safe to say on that on the sliding scale of idealism against cynicism, Dragon Ball is deeply entrenched in the side of optimism and the "glass is half full" mentality.

[Michsi]

Considering this is a series where even the most despicable and evil pieces of shit can be guaranteed a spot in heaven, and get the super-special-awesome extra treatment of retaining a body in the afterlife, if they perform at least one incredibly noble deed in their life, and you're still retaining optimism of living a peaceful life even when you've lost everything , I think it's safe to say on that on the sliding scale of idealism against cynicism, Dragon Ball is deeply entrenched in the side of optimism and the "glass is half full" mentality.

I think that has more to do with the idea that there's no divine justice in the world and the bad guy doesn't always get to pay for what he did or at least gets off easy. See Vegeta casually parking his butt at Capsule Corp. even after killing an entire village of Namekians and happily reminding everyone about it.

I always assumed that I knew Dragon Ball pretty well as a martial arts/adventure series about a simple minded but well meaning guy who loves fighting. If I was mistaken on that, and it’s actually a series about selfish people doing selfish things solely to satisfy their own urges, then I suppose I would have to re-evaluate what I thought I knew about the franchise.

It's still that for the most part, but what Toriyama has made clear time and time again is that he likes his characters flawed - problem is, once you involve conflict of global magnitude those character flaws get magnified as well. Goku's ardent desire to get stronger and find stronger opponents wouldn't be so bad if the consequences didn't involve the safety of other people.

[HeroR]

Really, the only time Dragon Ball can be remotely called cynical is History of Trunks, which deconstructs a lot of the trope associated with Dragon Ball, and Bardock: Father of Goku. And even those had light of hope endings.

I mean, Jiren in the anime is by far the most cynical heroic character we have seen series, and he was more or less called a broken loser for giving up on love and friendship and his entire character development was about becoming more idealistic. Even the Future Trunks Saga that had the most depression ending in the franchise along with the darkest tone never wavered from 'keep the hope again the odds' theme.

If you think Dragon Ball is cynical or even hidden cynical, you really need to watched more anime like Death Note, Attack on Titans, and Berserk.

[HeroR]

Considering this is a series where even the most despicable and evil pieces of shit can be guaranteed a spot in heaven, and get the super-special-awesome extra treatment of retaining a body in the afterlife, if they perform at least one incredibly noble deed in their life, and you're still retaining optimism of living a peaceful life even when you've lost everything , I think it's safe to say on that on the sliding scale of idealism against cynicism, Dragon Ball is deeply entrenched in the side of optimism and the "glass is half full" mentality.

That's not really true. Piccolo outright said Vegeta was going to hell since one good deed doesn't make up for a lifetime of evil.

[Lord Beerus]

Considering this is a series where even the most despicable and evil pieces of shit can be guaranteed a spot in heaven, and get the super-special-awesome extra treatment of retaining a body in the afterlife, if they perform at least one incredibly noble deed in their life, and you're still retaining optimism of living a peaceful life even when you've lost everything , I think it's safe to say on that on the sliding scale of idealism against cynicism, Dragon Ball is deeply entrenched in the side of optimism and the "glass is half full" mentality.

That's not really true. Piccolo outright said Vegeta was going to hell since one good deed doesn't make up for a lifetime of evil.

But he still got keep his body when he died. And when the wish was made for only the good people to be resurrected from Majin Boo's rampage on Earth, Vegeta was included.

Considering this is a series where even the most despicable and evil pieces of shit can be guaranteed a spot in heaven, and get the super-special-awesome extra treatment of retaining a body in the afterlife, if they perform at least one incredibly noble deed in their life, and you're still retaining optimism of living a peaceful life even when you've lost everything , I think it's safe to say on that on the sliding scale of idealism against cynicism, Dragon Ball is deeply entrenched in the side of optimism and the "glass is half full" mentality.

I think that has more to do with the idea that there's no divine justice in the world and the bad guy doesn't always get to pay for what he did or at least gets off easy. See Vegeta casually parking his butt at Capsule Corp. even after killing an entire village of Namekians and happily reminding everyone about it.

Oh, don't get me wrong. Vegeta just casually accustoming himself to Earth and the main cast practically sweeping all of the evil shit he did on Namek under the rug under the pretense of "Well... Vegeta kinda fights on our side now" has always rubbed up the wrong way.

And the Majin Boo arc doubles downs on this and acts as if Vegeta willingly murdering hundreds of innocent people just to provoke Goku into a pointless fight against him and acting as the major catalyst to the very near extinction of the mankind, was a minor misdemeanor that could be looked over when judging his soul and determining whether he was a good person.

I really think what constitutes as "good" and what constitutes as "bad" in the Dragon Ball cosmos should never be looked though our own real-world view lens. Because it's very obvious that the morality of Dragon Ball is very skewered into favoring the main cast and their personal affiliates out of convenience for the plot, rather than genuinely weighing up whether the morally ambiguous actions of the cast truly warrant them going to Heaven or going to Hell.