Something I thought of regarding the SS2 Gohan scene in Japanese

[90sDBZ]

Yes, Gohan fears it and I agree on that front...but his reluctance gets everyone brutally beaten until 16 has to tell him that it's okay and he needs to do what's right regardless of his reservations. So yes, when Gohan transforms, given all of the circumstances leading to it, it IS a moment of triumph and heroism...

Which makes it all the more effective when, whoops, turns out Gohan was right and he actually does become a bloodthirsty sadist .

Everything you said here also applies to Goku on Namek. Frieza was going to kill them and something needed to happen, anything to save their skin.

[Tavarano]

That part came later as he was obviously getting desperate. Earlier on he made it clear to Cell that he didn't want to transform.

He said the exact same thing, he doesn't know how to use it, doesn't look like extreme reluctance to me.

[jjgp1112]

Yes, Gohan fears it and I agree on that front...but his reluctance gets everyone brutally beaten until 16 has to tell him that it's okay and he needs to do what's right regardless of his reservations. So yes, when Gohan transforms, given all of the circumstances leading to it, it IS a moment of triumph and heroism...

Which makes it all the more effective when, whoops, turns out Gohan was right and he actually does become a bloodthirsty sadist .

Everything you said here also applies to Goku on Namek. Frieza was going to kill them and something needed to happen, anything to save their skin.

But look at the actual presentation. It was the absolute darkest hour that emphatically drops on everything completely out of nowhere, like a tornado rampage. Frieza back, Piccolo presumably dead, Krillin absolutely dead, and here's Goku absolutely snapping while thunder and lightning are going raging through the dark clouds. Yes, I think we all know what's probably happening here, and Goku isn't gonna turn into a Broly like psycho, but it's building up the Super Saiyan as a cataclysmic force of rage, not simply an awesome power up.

Super Saiyan 2 was something that Gohan feared to the detriment of everyone else. We were rooting for Gohan to get over his anxiety about his anger issues and save the day.

[jjgp1112]

That part came later as he was obviously getting desperate. Earlier on he made it clear to Cell that he didn't want to transform.

He said the exact same thing, he doesn't know how to use it, doesn't look like extreme reluctance to me.

Yes, Gohan was trying, but his heart clearly wasn't in it because of his reluctance. Even Cell chastised him for it - when he tried to attack him after that very same snippet, Cell shut him down and told him "If you're gonna get mad, do it FOR REAL!" And then 16 has to tell him to let it go.

[Captain-Sora]

I think you've got it backwards. The SS2 scene comes across as positive because of the music, not the other way around ie. being given triumphant music because the moment was triumphant to begin with.

The intent behind his transformation sequence in the anime was to stir feelings of hope, hence the music being uplifting and why fans are fine with it there.

Regarding the SS1 scene again, you can justify the reactions of the characters in-universe, but the music is something that's supposed to be directed at us the audience. If everyone and there mother can predict that good will come from the transformation like you said, then what's the point in the music trying to scare us to begin with? It feels like artificial drama.

And again I know this happened after the fact, but Gohan quickly realised what had happened and smiled as he flew away with Piccolo. If he's no longer worried then this makes King Kai's later line about Goku "not being himself" feel artificial too.

Whether it feels artificial to you or not is irrelevant. That was the intention behind the scene, so the mood should be retained in the dub, not altered.

[Tavarano]

Yes, Gohan was trying, but his heart clearly wasn't in it because of his reluctance. Even Cell chastised him for it - when he tried to attack him after that very same snippet, Cell shut him down and told him "If you're gonna get mad, do it FOR REAL!" And then 16 has to tell him to let it go.

You're misinterpreting it, super saiyan 2 is a cynical and subversive gag typical for Toriyama, not only that Gohan wanted to fight but he also completely ignored the whole protect the animals thing, and never thought about android 16 ever again. The joke is that he didn't need an inspiration but just to become more angry.

[jjgp1112]

Yes, Gohan was trying, but his heart clearly wasn't in it because of his reluctance. Even Cell chastised him for it - when he tried to attack him after that very same snippet, Cell shut him down and told him "If you're gonna get mad, do it FOR REAL!" And then 16 has to tell him to let it go.

You're misinterpreting it, super saiyan 2 is a cynical and subversive gag typical for Toriyama, not only that Gohan wanted to fight but he also completely ignored the whole protect the animals thing, and never thought about android 16 ever again. The joke is that he didn't need an inspiration but just to become more angry.

Um...yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say the only one reading too much into things is you.

[ABED]

But Goku didn't have any sadistic traits to begin with, he just loved the thrill of a good fight, you can't enhance traits that aren't there to begin with. You make a good point about the ape form though, although it had been so long since he'd transformed into that that it was pretty far back in my mind by the time he fought Frieza.

If there was zero reason to be worried for Gohan then why was he so worried himself? Why did he allow his friends to take a beating for so long and potentially get killed? And since we're discussing the anime you have to remember the filler scene where he first goes SS1 and initially struggles to gain control.

It's fictional! We don't know how Super Saiyan works when we first see it. And the time since Goku turned Great Ape has ZERO relevance to the situation.

Also, the builds are different to build expectations. We expect Gohan to be the savior because of his power only to have him give in to his negative emotions.

[WittyUsername]

For some reason I have trouble imagining that Toei Animation would think far enough ahead to have Gohan’s SSJ2 transformation serve as a bait and switch with the use of Spirit vs. Spirit. I guess it’s possible that was their intention, but I have an easier time believing that they went with the song for that scene because they thought it was cool.

[ABED]

For some reason I have trouble imagining that Toei Animation would think far enough ahead to have Gohan’s SSJ2 transformation serve as a bait and switch with the use of Spirit vs. Spirit. I guess it’s possible that was their intention, but I have an easier time believing that they went with the song for that scene because they thought it was cool.

There's a huge difference between a bait & switch and a subversion of expectations. The former is done with ill intention, the other is to surprise the audience and not let them get ahead of the story.

[90sDBZ]

Yes, Gohan fears it and I agree on that front...but his reluctance gets everyone brutally beaten until 16 has to tell him that it's okay and he needs to do what's right regardless of his reservations. So yes, when Gohan transforms, given all of the circumstances leading to it, it IS a moment of triumph and heroism...

Which makes it all the more effective when, whoops, turns out Gohan was right and he actually does become a bloodthirsty sadist .

Everything you said here also applies to Goku on Namek. Frieza was going to kill them and something needed to happen, anything to save their skin.

But look at the actual presentation. It was the absolute darkest hour that emphatically drops on everything completely out of nowhere, like a tornado rampage. Frieza back, Piccolo presumably dead, Krillin absolutely dead, and here's Goku absolutely snapping while thunder and lightning are going raging through the dark clouds. Yes, I think we all know what's probably happening here, and Goku isn't gonna turn into a Broly like psycho, but it's building up the Super Saiyan as a cataclysmic force of rage, not simply an awesome power up.

Super Saiyan 2 was something that Gohan feared to the detriment of everyone else. We were rooting for Gohan to get over his anxiety about his anger issues and save the day.

It was also the darkest hour when Gohan went SS2. Goku's plan had backfired, everyone was on the verge of getting beaten to death, Cell had the senzu beans, And Gohan was scared and conflicted as hell.

I think you've got it backwards. The SS2 scene comes across as positive because of the music, not the other way around ie. being given triumphant music because the moment was triumphant to begin with.

The intent behind his transformation sequence in the anime was to stir feelings of hope, hence the music being uplifting and why fans are fine with it there.

Regarding the SS1 scene again, you can justify the reactions of the characters in-universe, but the music is something that's supposed to be directed at us the audience. If everyone and there mother can predict that good will come from the transformation like you said, then what's the point in the music trying to scare us to begin with? It feels like artificial drama.

And again I know this happened after the fact, but Gohan quickly realised what had happened and smiled as he flew away with Piccolo. If he's no longer worried then this makes King Kai's later line about Goku "not being himself" feel artificial too.

Whether it feels artificial to you or not is irrelevant. That was the intention behind the scene, so the mood should be retained in the dub, not altered.

Well that's a matter of accuracy for the sake of accuracy which is a debate for another day. The point I've been trying to make is that there are great similarities between Goku going SS1 and Gohan going SS2 and yet they're both scored very differently. Here's a question; do you think Toriyama intended SS2 as a triumphant scene in the Manga?

But Goku didn't have any sadistic traits to begin with, he just loved the thrill of a good fight, you can't enhance traits that aren't there to begin with. You make a good point about the ape form though, although it had been so long since he'd transformed into that that it was pretty far back in my mind by the time he fought Frieza.

If there was zero reason to be worried for Gohan then why was he so worried himself? Why did he allow his friends to take a beating for so long and potentially get killed? And since we're discussing the anime you have to remember the filler scene where he first goes SS1 and initially struggles to gain control.

It's fictional! We don't know how Super Saiyan works when we first see it. And the time since Goku turned Great Ape has ZERO relevance to the situation.

Also, the builds are different to build expectations. We expect Gohan to be the savior because of his power only to have him give in to his negative emotions.

And we don't know how SS2 works because nobody has gone that high before, and on top of that we're given reason by Gohan himself to feel uncertain about what could happen.

And we're also built up to believe that Goku will be the one to save the universe from Frieza. Heroic music even plays in the original (movie 3 spirit bomb ost) when he gets out of the healing tank, further building the narrative that he will be the saviour of the universe.

[ABED]

But in essence we do. We've seen SSJ before and we've seen different forms. SSJ was completely new, SSJ2 was just another level of the same idea.

And we're also built up to believe that Goku will be the one to save the universe from Frieza. Heroic music even plays in the original (movie 3 spirit bomb ost) when he gets out of the healing tank, further building the narrative that he will be the saviour of the universe.

And you think it would've been a good idea to play that note (figuratively speaking) twice? Goku got out of the tank stronger, he didn't transform due to rage.

The point I've been trying to make is that there are great similarities between Goku going SS1 and Gohan going SS2 and yet they're both scored very differently.

Similarities, but not the same thing. Why would you want them to scenes to play the same way?

[jjgp1112]

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It was also the darkest hour when Gohan went SS2. Goku's plan had backfired, everyone was on the verge of getting beaten to death, Cell had the senzu beans, And Gohan was scared and conflicted as hell.

Again, these scenes are played very differently from each other. Cell, Goku. Gohan and everyone else are specifically counting on a transformation to happen in hopes of saving the day. The dire circumstances that play out before Gohan transforms are a result of...Gohan's inability to transform. All throughout this scenario we repeatedly cut to Gohan saying "if only...!" The "darkest hour" is EXACTLY what we expected to happen when Cell said he was gonna start attacking Gohan's friends to draw out his power. Every thing he does is a build up to hope.

Nothing of that sort happens in the Frieza fight. We have no concept of what the Super Saiyan transformation is, and the payoff for the hope spot already happened: Goku pulled off the spirit bomb and blew Frieza to smithereens. But then out of nowhere, the rug is completely pulled out and now have the crew is dead and Goku has no reserves left. It's a nightmare scenario dropped out of nowhere. You keep using meta narratives that are undoubtedly the result of watching the Frieza saga after the fact.

And we're also built up to believe that Goku will be the one to save the universe from Frieza. Heroic music even plays in the original (movie 3 spirit bomb ost) when he gets out of the healing tank, further building the narrative that he will be the saviour of the universe.

Like ABED said, these scenes and the circumstances are not comparable at all. You keep focusing on stuff outside of the specific scene's circumstances and not how the show wants you to feel in that exact moment.

[ABED]

Why would you want them to scenes to play the same way?

Whoops, good lord, my grammar is atrocious. It was meant to read "Why would you want the scenes to play the same way?" If they played a heroic theme when Goku gets out of the healing tank and when he's transforming, that wouldn't be twice, but a third time a heroic theme would play. One played when he arrived on Namek. It would read as "Hope has finally arrived! Once again, hope has arrived. No, NOW hope has arrived!"

[Tavarano]

Um...yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say the only one reading too much into things is you.

Well then explain why was it stated clearly like day that Gohan wanted to use his hidden power, why did he entirely ignore android's 16 last words and went to enjoy the fight, didn't think of trying to bring him back, and why was even android 16 chosen as a messenger though he was a nobody to Gohan? It's almost like it was written to be hollow on purpose, I wonder why. (laughs)

[jjgp1112]

Um...yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say the only one reading too much into things is you.

Well then explain why was it stated clearly like day that Gohan wanted to use his hidden power, why did he entirely ignore android's 16 last words and went to enjoy the fight, didn't think of trying to bring him back, and why was even android 16 chosen as a messenger though he was a nobody to Gohan? It's almost like it was written to be hollow on purpose, I wonder why. (laughs)

And what happens when Gohan gets carried away and enjoys the fight? Everything colossally screws up and Gohan is remorseful for his actions. Stop cherrypicking shit to cram the story into this cynical vision you're forcing on it.

[Tavarano]

Well then explain why was it stated clearly like day that Gohan wanted to use his hidden power, why did he entirely ignore android's 16 last words and went to enjoy the fight, didn't think of trying to bring him back, and why was even android 16 chosen as a messenger though he was a nobody to Gohan? It's almost like it was written to be hollow on purpose, I wonder why. (laughs)

And what happens when Gohan gets carried away and enjoys the fight? Everything colossally screws up and Gohan is remorseful for his actions. Stop cherrypicking shit to cram the story into this cynical vision you're forcing on it.

Gohan gets arrogant in front of Kibito, in the fight with Boo and lets Gotenks fight, arguably against Kefla too, actually he already acts like that when Cell returns when he says that he is glad because he will be able to avenge his father.
Is it me cherrypicking or you trying to headcanonize the details away? You said "Yes, Gohan was trying, but his heart clearly wasn't in it because of his reluctance" even though as shown in the story, Gohan actively wanted and tried to unleash his power and defeat Cell.

[ABED]

I don't think you understand cynicism or what a subversion or what a gag is for that matter. First the Dende thing and now this. Toriyama may not have done a great job of creating drama in the scene, but he was clearly being earnest when he wrote Gohan turning SSJ2.

[jjgp1112]

Well then explain why was it stated clearly like day that Gohan wanted to use his hidden power, why did he entirely ignore android's 16 last words and went to enjoy the fight, didn't think of trying to bring him back, and why was even android 16 chosen as a messenger though he was a nobody to Gohan? It's almost like it was written to be hollow on purpose, I wonder why. (laughs)

And what happens when Gohan gets carried away and enjoys the fight? Everything colossally screws up and Gohan is remorseful for his actions. Stop cherrypicking shit to cram the story into this cynical vision you're forcing on it.

Gohan gets arrogant in front of Kibito, in the fight with Boo and lets Gotenks fight, arguably against Kefla too, actually he already acts like that when Cell returns when he says that he is glad because he will be able to avenge his father.
Is it me cherrypicking or you trying to headcanonize the details away? You said "Yes, Gohan was trying, but his heart clearly wasn't in it because of his reluctance" even though as shown in the story, Gohan actively wanted and tried to unleash his power and defeat Cell.

Again, nobody is "hencanonizing" anything but YOU. You're choosing to twist every little detail about Dragon Ball to their "realistic" conclusions because you've decided to take an out of context Toriyama quote and apply it to the entire story.

Gohan's heart not being in it isn't headcanon. Cell calls him out for it. The entire crux of Android 16's speech is about telling Gohan to stop restraining himself. Goku has to tell Gohan to stop holding back during the final beam struggle. You continue to ignore this, and other details surrounding other scenarios you've decided are callous for...reasons.

[Tavarano]

To put it as simply as possible, would an author ever write something like this if he intended to show the character's reluctance to fight? "I want to beat Cell", to me the answer is no, and since it's written by Toriyama it makes a lot of sense, android 16's speech was deliberately made to be meaningless.