I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:35 am

Not really. Tournaments are one of the best things in Dragon Ball.

Well, honestly speaking Goku becoming a child was unnecessary IMO. I didn't see any benefits with this, and the only real change was "I can't teleport anymore, just because".

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:47 am

GT tried to utilize the wonderment of adventure from DB but didn't take along a young-minded Goku, a low power ceiling, and the brilliantly designed set pieces. It also tried to bring along the grit of DBZ's combat but failed to bring the animation and choreography that made those fights interesting.
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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by emperior » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:46 am

I wouldn’t have minded Goku becoming a child again if the story was actually executed well.
Instead I remember that as a kid I was bored out of my mind during the hunt for the Black Star DBs arc, and I cringed really hard at how nerfed Goku was.

I give GT the merit for trying something new and risky, but that is all overshadowed by the lacklustre execution of it all, to the point that the show didn’t even feel like Dragon Ball.

The first two episodes and the ending are nice though. Everything else, not so much. Especially the fights, as there’s not a single memorable one.
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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Rubens » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:06 am

As someone with neutral feelings towards GT, I admit inicially I enjoyed the idea of seeing Goku being turned back into a kid. It reminds about that early era of Dragon Ball and that is furthermore reinforced with the adventure of looking for the dragon balls throughout the universe. Unfortunately the adventure itself is very underwhelming to me and I find most characters and sub-plots rather bland.

Later on I believe thate the kid Goku gimmick loses purpose and instead becoming an adult once again, he does that via turning ss4 which in my opinion is silly. That's the point where I dislike him as a kid.
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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Timetraveller » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:37 pm

ruler9871 wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:39 pm
1. "Goku being an adult adds nothing to his character".

And what actually does Goku turning into a kid again add to his character? Adult Goku in Z (especially in the anime version) displayed more range and gravity in his personality and actions than he ever did any of the other 3 series. And making him a kid again in GT took away much of what made Z Goku appealing (unless he's in SSJ4).

2. "People like to pretend that having Goku as an adult somehow adds nuances to his character when it's been shown time and time again that Toriyama intended for him to be a one-dimensional idiot who likes to fight strong people."

How in the world is this a good argument? This doesn't at all make GT kid Goku nor even Early DB kid Goku look good at all if you have to resort to the "Goku's mean't to be a dumb character anyway" argument.

3. "At least with kid Goku, you get the interesting and funny relationships he develops with his granddaughter and the rest of the Z family"

This could have actually been a thing, were it not for GT putting most of the cast out of the spotlight for 95% of the series (except Pan). And there was hardly anymore, nor any unique funny & interesting relationships that we didn't see in the other 3 shows.

4. "I liked the way they portrayed Pan"

You liked how GT made her a useless sidekick who only exists to get into trouble, steal attention away from the rest of the cast, get no character development and (as the writers themselves admitted) be a damsel in distress (which was why she never became a SSJ)?
1. GT Goku showed plenty of that like when Goku notices something is wrong with a Baby possessed Gohan and Goten and steps in, saying something to the effect of "I never raised you that way" (might be a dub only line). As you mentioned, his persona in his SSJ4 state is very serious which is a nice contrast to his regular goofy, fight-loving self.

2. It's not an argument. It's the way his character has always been intended, at least from what I keep being told. Over the course of 300 episodes, Goku's had the least character development of all the characters in the show

3. Goku's a man in a kid's body. The funny relationships stem from his interactions with a granddaughter his age, sons old enough to be his father and his friends who are now in their 50s and 60s. That's a unique spin to his interactions with the secondary characters in Z which was minimal unless he was training with them.

4. I liked that they didn't force her into the spotlight for the sake of fanservice like randomly giving her an undeserved legendary super saiyan form from something as dumb as back tingles or insults. She's just a regular kid who has her own issues and is not a clone of Goku or Vegeta. She was still plenty strong enough to stand up against opponents stronger than Frieza and Cell. She also had plenty of character development. You only need to compare how she treats Goku at the beginning of GT to the end of GT.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Xeogran » Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:31 pm

SSJgogeto wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:35 am I didn't see any benefits with this, and the only real change was "I can't teleport anymore, just because".
For one, they can add his Kid-self into games where they wouldn't be able to otherwise (see FighterZ) 8)

I personally agree with the OP, but the reasons were more or less stated in this thread already. I would also add that the GT Opening would look completely different were Goku to remain as an adult. Maybe it wouldn't even be the same tone. People often overlook the aspect, despite liking the Intro themselves. Same with the endings.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:06 pm

I think Goku becoming a child initially served it's purposed to being a crutch (to varying degrees) for Goku's capabilities in battle and serve as a nice nostalgia trip to the early days of Dragon Ball -- especially with the first arc tried to tapped into the whimsical and charming days of the first Dragon Ball hunt.

But I felt once Goku attained SSJ4, and became one the strongest characters in the show in process, and could transform into an adult, the purpose of Goku becoming a child had pretty much been rendered moot.

I mean, if Goku has a form that allows him to gain back his adult body for the duration he uses SSJ4, he may as well have regained his adult form permanently. Goku still being a child at that point serves no purpose for the story thematically or to serve as drama when he's got an incredible powerful SSJ form that negates the consequences of him being an child.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by ABED » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:53 pm

SSJgogeto wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:35 am Not really. Tournaments are one of the best things in Dragon Ball.

Well, honestly speaking Goku becoming a child was unnecessary IMO. I didn't see any benefits with this, and the only real change was "I can't teleport anymore, just because".
Why "just because"? What more are you looking for than his body doesn't have the endurance it did as an adult?
Goku still being a child at that point serves no purpose for the story thematically or to serve as drama when he's got an incredible powerful SSJ form that negates the consequences of him being an child.
When he teleports much of the world's population onto Baby's planet, his power runs out, hence why Piccolo ends up dying. While your argument isn't completely without merit, the writers mined Goku's limitations one more time for drama.
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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:46 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:53 pm
Goku still being a child at that point serves no purpose for the story thematically or to serve as drama when he's got an incredible powerful SSJ form that negates the consequences of him being an child.
When he teleports much of the world's population onto Baby's planet, his power runs out, hence why Piccolo ends up dying. While your argument isn't completely without merit, the writers mined Goku's limitations one more time for drama.
Goku running out of power had nothing to with him being a child. Goku was a SSJ4 when he was teleporting all the people of Earth. He just simply burned out all of Ki from using Instant Transmission so much. Leading him to reverting back to his childlike base form.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by ruler9871 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:08 pm

Timetraveller wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:37 pm
4. I liked that they didn't force her into the spotlight for the sake of fanservice like randomly giving her an undeserved legendary super saiyan form from something as dumb as back tingles or insults. She's just a regular kid who has her own issues and is not a clone of Goku or Vegeta. She was still plenty strong enough to stand up against opponents stronger than Frieza and Cell. She also had plenty of character development. You only need to compare how she treats Goku at the beginning of GT to the end of GT.
Pan was forced into the spotlight throughout all of GT. The fact the she did nothing useful (in terms of combat) nor substantial (in terms of story or character development) with all that spotlight she got actually makes her case much worse. She's literally DB's equivalent to Sakura from the Naruto franchise. They have much of the same writing problems.

And you don't have to be a copy of Goku or Vegeta to be a useful character in a series like DB. Just look at Gohan throughout Z, Piccolo from his debut to the Cell Games or Future Trunks in all of his appearances for example. None of these characters are personally like Goku or Vegeta, yet they're all handled way better than GT Pan.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by funrush » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:04 pm

Kid Goku's fun in the Black Star DB arc but they should've changed him back at the Baby arc or just afterward.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by ABED » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:55 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:46 pm
ABED wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:53 pm
Goku still being a child at that point serves no purpose for the story thematically or to serve as drama when he's got an incredible powerful SSJ form that negates the consequences of him being an child.
When he teleports much of the world's population onto Baby's planet, his power runs out, hence why Piccolo ends up dying. While your argument isn't completely without merit, the writers mined Goku's limitations one more time for drama.
Goku running out of power had nothing to with him being a child. Goku was a SSJ4 when he was teleporting all the people of Earth. He just simply burned out all of Ki from using Instant Transmission so much. Leading him to reverting back to his childlike base form.
It has to do with him being a child. Yes, SSJ4 burned out of power, but as a kid, which as we've established can't teleport.
Pan was forced into the spotlight throughout all of GT.
What does it mean to be forced into the spotlight? Pan was actually quite powerful, she just didn't reach her full potential. For the record, she did kill one of the Evil Dragons.
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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Xeogran » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:35 am

ruler9871 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:08 pm Pan was forced into the spotlight throughout all of GT. The fact the she did nothing useful (in terms of combat) nor substantial (in terms of story or character development) with all that spotlight she got actually makes her case much worse. She's literally DB's equivalent to Sakura from the Naruto franchise. They have much of the same writing problems.
Ok, and remind me again, Goku became SS4 because of who? :roll:

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:45 am

ABED wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:53 pmWhy "just because"? What more are you looking for than his body doesn't have the endurance it did as an adult?
Essentialy, I'm looking for a better explanation.

I mean, endurance? This "kid" have enough power in his base form to beat the "Z" Goku at his peak, without effort. So his body can endure this kind of power but at the same time he can't teleport? Yeah, right.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Timetraveller » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:24 am

ruler9871 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:08 pm
Timetraveller wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:37 pm
4. I liked that they didn't force her into the spotlight for the sake of fanservice like randomly giving her an undeserved legendary super saiyan form from something as dumb as back tingles or insults. She's just a regular kid who has her own issues and is not a clone of Goku or Vegeta. She was still plenty strong enough to stand up against opponents stronger than Frieza and Cell. She also had plenty of character development. You only need to compare how she treats Goku at the beginning of GT to the end of GT.
Pan was forced into the spotlight throughout all of GT. The fact the she did nothing useful (in terms of combat) nor substantial (in terms of story or character development) with all that spotlight she got actually makes her case much worse. She's literally DB's equivalent to Sakura from the Naruto franchise. They have much of the same writing problems.

And you don't have to be a copy of Goku or Vegeta to be a useful character in a series like DB. Just look at Gohan throughout Z, Piccolo from his debut to the Cell Games or Future Trunks in all of his appearances for example. None of these characters are personally like Goku or Vegeta, yet they're all handled way better than GT Pan.
She wasn't forced into the spotlight. The show was and has always been about Goku. She became a supporting character to Goku. Goku and Vegeta are leagues ahead of anyone else in power, literally God status. Everyone else can do one of two things: 1) Fight fodder characters like the humans did in ToP or 2) get massive illogical power-ups to make them relevant ala Golden Freeza or Kale or Future Trunks who got an unexplained powerup and became god tier. Gohan's a bit different as he was forced to train and keep up but even he had his "latent power" unlocked from a dancing Kai.

Is that really want you want to see happen to Pan? Piccolo, Yamcha, Krillin, Roshi were all left in the dust in DBZ.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:27 am

SSJgogeto wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:45 am
ABED wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:53 pmWhy "just because"? What more are you looking for than his body doesn't have the endurance it did as an adult?
Essentialy, I'm looking for a better explanation.

I mean, endurance? This "kid" have enough power in his base form to beat the "Z" Goku at his peak, without effort. So his body can endure this kind of power but at the same time he can't teleport? Yeah, right.
Yes, his adult form is stronger than he was at the end of DBZ. Strength and endurance aren't the same thing.
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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:52 am

I know that, but they are related. Goku in his child form is also way stronger than his "Zself", so I can't see how he can endure this amount of power in his little body but he can't do the IT.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:12 pm

SSJgogeto wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:52 am I know that, but they are related. Goku in his child form is also way stronger than his "Zself", so I can't see how he can endure this amount of power in his little body but he can't do the IT.
When he starts out as a child, he's no stronger than when he was when he was just about to be turned into a kid. Any extra power he gains is from his training in the time after that.
Naturally, he's a bit off balance; he can't teleport anymore, but he's Goku, he can learn to adapt to most things, IT is just probably something that takes a lot of time they don't have, so he spent the rest of the time balancing in other ways so he can fight. Remember, he can still go Super Saiyan, and 2, and 3, so as long as he spends some time acclimatising to being a kid again, he should be able to hold his own against whatever thugs are waiting out in the universe; he's already one of the strongest there is, after all.

Problem is, however much he trains, he is just a kid. As you say, it's rather ridiculous that he'd endure that amount of power in his kid body. And that's a plot point; when he fights Baby Vegeta, probably his one equal in the universe at this stage, he holds his own at Super Saiyan 3, but his body can't take it, and he falls out of the transformation. He can fight at base, and at Super Saiyan, maybe even manage 2, but 3? He couldn't maintain 3 for all that long in adult form, so it makes sense going that far as a kid, he'd last minutes.
Given Gohan could handle Super Saiyan 1 and 2 pretty well -- hell, he was the first to go 2 -- I imagine they're well-balanced enough that even a kid should be able to maintain them, especially one as well-disciplined and experienced in the transformations as Goku is. But 3? Goku had to be dead to learn how to do it, it's ridiculous...

Obviously, the Elder Kaioshin realised the only way for him to be strong enough was for him to get an adult form that can handle Super Saiyan 3 levels of power, and with the way Super Saiyan 4 essentially puts his body into a perfect form, combining the power of the Oozaru with his human body, while it's silly, it does kind a make sense Super Saiyan 4 would give him an optimal body for its power (it's not quite adult human form, notice; he's all hairy, his hair on his head is weird, etc.), so the Elder Kaioshin interfered and got Goku to learn Super Saiyan 4 to kick Baby's ass.

So... From an in-universe standpoint, it makes total sense.

From a meta perspective, it's pretty clear making him a kid again was just to give them a wish the Ultimate Dragon Balls could grant to give an inciting incident, and making Goku a kid again was a sensible, highly marketable decision from the perspective of the Toei brass, particularly given the early run before they branched out and started doing unique stuff was basically just a Pilaf/Red Ribbon throwback.
Super Saiyan 4 giving Goku an adult form grabs the marketable fighty adult Goku, and kind of gives a solution to the central black-star arc problem of making Goku an adult again... Though from a story standpoint this really wasn't necessary; Goku was chill about being a kid again, and with the balls all around the universe... It was really only Chichi who really took much issue with it. It was only when the stakes of the earth blowing up came about -- which, thinking on it, was probably done because Goku being a kid again on its own probably would have not been an inciting incident strong enough to incite the arc -- that the protagonists would roam the universe looking for the balls. Though giving Goku a new transformation was probably the right decision, and the design was awesome... Ultimately, I think probably one big reason Goku becomes an adult again for Super Saiyan 4 is likely the design... It'd probably look a bit goofy if he was a kid (remember Super Saiyan 3 kid Goku? Looked goofy as hell...!!)

It's clearly a bit half-baked, but it all does make sense, it tracks fine... Doesn't seem like much worse a starting point than "two robots appear who want revenge for killing one of their son, and then they show up and... everyone's kinda just ready to beat them to a pulp... They've been training, Goku has the antidote, etc..." :lol:
And like the Cell arc, it does course-correct and find a more solid arc to tell, though it doesn't quite shift and flouder around as much as the Cell arc did. Cell arc shifted its central plot like four times before it finally made up its mind. :lol:

Like GT or not, criticising the logic of it will just end up coming back around to the flaws of Toriyama's writing that GT didn't have; notably, Toriyama's problems with internal consistency, logical progression, etc. He was good as smoothing over such problems, but those problems aren't present in GT to any noteworthy extent... In that regard, I think GT and the Toriyama era are on pretty even footing.
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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by Nokra » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Even though gt sucks the big one goku being a kid again is negligible. It was just a way for them to cash in on nostalgia and had no plot relevance.

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Re: I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:56 pm

Nokra wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:18 pm Even though gt sucks the big one goku being a kid again is negligible. It was just a way for them to cash in on nostalgia and had no plot relevance.
Why do you guys insist on saying that instead of reading Toei in their own words? Not only that, it does have plot relevance that is staring you right in the face - to place a limitation on Goku after he had become so powerful.

Nostalgia played a part, but not the only part.
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