Thoughts on Vegeta post-Namek Earth filler

[ABED]

THat was Goku's vision, which would be out of character for Vegeta, no matter what point he is in his development.

Vegeta isn't two faced? He agreed to fight with Goku against Ginyu and Jeice and then fled to go after the DB's. He turned on his comrade, Nappa.

Vegeta dies crying and begging Goku to kill Frieza, then repays him by laughing about his death and beating up and nearly killing his son. That rubs me up the wrong way as it's too much even for him.

Vegeta is on his deathbed! Of course when he's alive and well he's going to behave differently.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Having just watched those episodes again to reply to this, if anything the filler scuffle just further highlights how sudden Toriyama's placement of Vegeta after the Freeza arc is. Vegeta spends the entire Freeza arc and, on the surface, the entire Android/Cell arc thinking he is just one transformation or power-up and a few dead villains away from getting back to the Saiyan arc status quo- it is not until the years leading up to Buu that it really dawns on him that those days are not coming back. His being one stubborn Gohan away from smashing his recent short-term allies (which to him amounts to "I wasn't going to smack you because you're a kid, but if you want to start something.") sounds exactly like what a Vegeta without anything else to worry about would do. It doesn't work with what comes after, but what comes after was never smooth on its own terms.

[90sDBZ]

THat was Goku's vision, which would be out of character for Vegeta, no matter what point he is in his development.

Vegeta isn't two faced? He agreed to fight with Goku against Ginyu and Jeice and then fled to go after the DB's. He turned on his comrade, Nappa.

Vegeta dies crying and begging Goku to kill Frieza, then repays him by laughing about his death and beating up and nearly killing his son. That rubs me up the wrong way as it's too much even for him.

Vegeta is on his deathbed! Of course when he's alive and well he's going to behave differently.

I think Goku's vision has room for interpretation whether or not it was real or in his head. He'd never seen Bardock or King Vegeta, so how did he have a hallucination of them?

Ok Vegeta was two faced when he ditched Goku, but he was kind of a dick to Nappa all the time anyway so I'm not sure that counts. For example he made it clear all along that strength was all that mattered to him in allies, refusing to wish back Raditz and killing a Saibamen for losing. He was an unapologetic dick early on and made no pretense about valuing his allies as friends, so I wouldn't call him killing Nappa two faced.

My main issue with him beating up Gohan is it seems outright cowardly for him. Like he wouldn't dare do it in front of Goku at that point because he knows he'd get destroyed. Also you've mentioned how you don't like him being passive waiting for Goku, but I remember a line from Bulma in the Trunks arc were she says he trains all the time, so at least he's doing that much before Trunks even shows up.

Having just watched those episodes again to reply to this, if anything the filler scuffle just further highlights how sudden Toriyama's placement of Vegeta after the Freeza arc is. Vegeta spends the entire Freeza arc and, on the surface, the entire Android/Cell arc thinking he is just one transformation or power-up and a few dead villains away from getting back to the Saiyan arc status quo- it is not until the years leading up to Buu that it really dawns on him that those days are not coming back. His being one stubborn Gohan away from smashing his recent short-term allies (which to him amounts to "I wasn't going to smack you because you're a kid, but if you want to start something.") sounds exactly like what a Vegeta without anything else to worry about would do. It doesn't work with what comes after, but what comes after was never smooth on its own terms.

But the filler doesn't just have Gohan be stubborn for no reason. Vegeta spent a good few episodes taunting him beforehand. Even if you ignore what comes later, he did save Gohan's life from Frieza for no apparent reason earlier on, so why be a dick to him now?

I think how you feel about this particular filler really depends on whether or not you think Vegeta should have turned good at all. If you're someone who thinks he should have stayed evil then this filler will appeal to you.

With the power of hindsight from having seen the whole story, it feels out of place. As it stands it's simply a glimpse into what might have been had Toriyama decided not to redeem him.

[Lord Beerus]

Thank God somebody else brought up the bullshit filler where Vegeta taunts Gohan about Goku being dead, and then beats the crap out of Gohan and flies away, only to come back and be with the rest of the cast in the very next episode like nothing happened.

Hell, in the next episode, Vegeta is excited about seeing Goku again and later filler shows Vegeta searching in space for Goku. Vegeta was so out of character in Episode 106 (the episode he mocks Goku death and beats up Gohan for standing up for him), that it also feel that episode took place in an alternate dimension.

It's bad writing. Plain and simple.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Thank God somebody else brought up the bullshit filler where Vegeta taunts Gohan about Goku being dead, and then beats the crap out of Gohan and flies away, only to come back and be with the rest of the cast in the very next episode like nothing happened.

Hell, in the next episode, Vegeta is excited about seeing Goku again and later filler shows Vegeta searching in space for Goku. Vegeta was so out of character in Episode 106 (the episode he mocks Goku death and beats up Gohan for standing up for him), that it also feel that episode took place in an alternate dimension.

It's bad writing. Plain and simple.

I'm quite honestly glad that those bits especially that particular afoermentioned episode where Vegeta mercilessly pounds Gohan and almost flat out kills him were among the filler material that got removed from Kai, because they no doubt just feel so inconsistent with his character before and after in the parts actually aligning to the manga.

[MyVisionity]

I think how you feel about this particular filler really depends on whether or not you think Vegeta should have turned good at all. If you're someone who thinks he should have stayed evil then this filler will appeal to you.

I don't think Vegeta should have stayed evil at all, and I love this filler.

I just don't get what's so irredeemable about Vegeta's actions in this. He didn't actually carry out any of his threats. Gohan took a beating, so what? And all of this was when Vegeta was still evil. He hadn't reformed yet.

Hell, in the next episode, Vegeta is excited about seeing Goku again and later filler shows Vegeta searching in space for Goku.

He's excited because he now knows Goku is alive. Up until that point he thought he was dead, so of course his attitude is going to change.

[Cursed Lemon]

I don't think Vegeta should have stayed evil at all, and I love this filler.

I just don't get what's so irredeemable about Vegeta's actions in this. He didn't actually carry out any of his threats. Gohan took a beating, so what? And all of this was when Vegeta was still evil. He hadn't reformed yet.

It's not that his actions were irredeemable, it's that they were hamfisted.

[ABED]

I think Goku's vision has room for interpretation whether or not it was real or in his head. He'd never seen Bardock or King Vegeta, so how did he have a hallucination of them?

Ok Vegeta was two faced when he ditched Goku, but he was kind of a dick to Nappa all the time anyway so I'm not sure that counts. For example he made it clear all along that strength was all that mattered to him in allies, refusing to wish back Raditz and killing a Saibamen for losing. He was an unapologetic dick early on and made no pretense about valuing his allies as friends, so I wouldn't call him killing Nappa two faced.

My main issue with him beating up Gohan is it seems outright cowardly for him. Like he wouldn't dare do it in front of Goku at that point because he knows he'd get destroyed. Also you've mentioned how you don't like him being passive waiting for Goku, but I remember a line from Bulma in the Trunks arc were she says he trains all the time, so at least he's doing that much before Trunks even shows up.

Isn't the vision filler?

Even if the Nappa example doesn't hold, though I don't think he was a dick to Nappa at all until the end. Him ditching Goku is two faced enough to prove my point that he has that in him.

Of course he's not going to start shit with Goku there unless he believes he has a chance of winning the fight. The only reason he didn't step out from Freeza's army before is because he was afraid. It's only after he hears about the DB's that he openly rebels. You make it seem like Vegeta is a more principled character than he truly is. Vegeta is brave when he has power over people. Even if his chance to face and defeat either Freeza or a Super Saiyan were taken from him, he would absolutely gloat over being the strongest. I might understand passively staying on Earth where he knows Goku will come home to, but what's keeping him from hurting anyone?

I find it incredibly problematic that a guy who was driven to defy the strongest being in the universe and try to become immortal, who killed even children without remorse, and even tried to destroy the very planet he's standing on would be reduced to a passive person who's little more than surly to the people he has no attachment to. Why? All because he was beaten and killed?

I think how you feel about this particular filler really depends on whether or not you think Vegeta should have turned good at all. If you're someone who thinks he should have stayed evil then this filler will appeal to you.

That is more than reductive, it's flat out wrong. What about anything we've been saying leads you to think he should've stayed evil? I'm fine with his long road to becoming a good guy, but that story needs to be told in stages. Going from reluctantly teaming up with his enemies who screwed him over by summoning Porunga to being merely surly is too big a pill to swallow.

You keep bringing up that he had no reason to save Gohan, but that's not true. He was his ally in that fight. Perhaps it was instinct to defend the enemy of his enemy even if he did think he had become a Super Saiyan. Maybe he was showing off. What's your point? He did it because he was a good guy?

[90sDBZ]

Isn't the vision filler?

Even if the Nappa example doesn't hold, though I don't think he was a dick to Nappa at all until the end. Him ditching Goku is two faced enough to prove my point that he has that in him.

Of course he's not going to start shit with Goku there unless he believes he has a chance of winning the fight. The only reason he didn't step out from Freeza's army before is because he was afraid. It's only after he hears about the DB's that he openly rebels. You make it seem like Vegeta is a more principled character than he truly is. Vegeta is brave when he has power over people. Even if his chance to face and defeat either Freeza or a Super Saiyan were taken from him, he would absolutely gloat over being the strongest. I might understand passively staying on Earth where he knows Goku will come home to, but what's keeping him from hurting anyone?

I find it incredibly problematic that a guy who was driven to defy the strongest being in the universe and try to become immortal, who killed even children without remorse, and even tried to destroy the very planet he's standing on would be reduced to a passive person who's little more than surly to the people he has no attachment to. Why? All because he was beaten and killed?

I think how you feel about this particular filler really depends on whether or not you think Vegeta should have turned good at all. If you're someone who thinks he should have stayed evil then this filler will appeal to you.

That is more than reductive, it's flat out wrong. What about anything we've been saying leads you to think he should've stayed evil? I'm fine with his long road to becoming a good guy, but that story needs to be told in stages. Going from reluctantly teaming up with his enemies who screwed him over by summoning Porunga to being merely surly is too big a pill to swallow.

You keep bringing up that he had no reason to save Gohan, but that's not true. He was his ally in that fight. Perhaps it was instinct to defend the enemy of his enemy even if he did think he had become a Super Saiyan. Maybe he was showing off. What's your point? He did it because he was a good guy?

The vision is filler, but just like the other filler it's part of the anime, so is part of Vegeta's characterisation in the anime.

You keep playing down the importance of his death. It wasn't just any defeat, but the complete destruction of his ego and stripping back of his tough guy identity. His entire sense of self had been thrown into question. The tough bastard who endured all that shit on earth was literally reduced to tears in front of his former enemies. For him to immediately go back to acting the way he did before like the whole thing never happened just isn't believable. After crying like that it makes much more sense for him to be ashamed of the whole incident and to keep his head down.

You say his development didn't have to happen all at once, and could have happened more believably later on. Name one moment before or during the Cell arc, that was more significant or painful than him being reduced to tears in front of his greatest enemy and former enemies. If that shame didn't cause him to go quiet and behave for awhile then what else could have? Even hypothetically speaking what else could you put him through to take him from murderous bastard to disgruntled jerk? His death on Namek is as good a bridge for that as can be.

And I don't buy him just saving Gohan to show off, as he could have done that anyway by defeating Frieza. If anything he was taking a risk saving Gohan, after seeing his rage moments. Right after saving him he insists on fighting alone anyway, so him wanting Gohan alive as an ally makes no sense. Honestly I think he valued him as a Saiyan in his own sort of way. He even let both him and Krillin live before they were allies, something Frieza wouldn't have done. I'm not saying he was even close to being a good guy at any point on Namek, but there were small signs that maybe, just maybe there was a better side to him.

[ABED]

It's not part of his characterization, it's simply filler.

I in no way downplayed his death. It's a watershed moment, but it's not enough to make him practically harmless. His self confidence has been broken, as fragile as it is, but do you not expect there to be pushback? In another thread you talked about Vegeta becoming Majin Vegeta as a midlife crisis. This would be the same thing. Beating the crap out of someone for daring to stand up to him is far more believable coming from him than becoming merely surly. He didn't go back to his old ways. He would've killed Gohan otherwise. A great deal many people don't like showing vulnerability. Combine that with the vicious bastard Vegeta still was and coming back after breaking down in front of his enemies is gonna come with consequences. This bully behavior. I've seen bullies get in fights after crying in school. It's a defense mechanism.

Hell, I even buy that he might get some perverse satisfaction out of Goku and Freeza dying. He always wanted to become the strongest and now he would be by default without having to lift a finger. I get he would want to fight Goku as a Super Saiyan and defeat him, but an immediate emotional reaction that feels inconsistent with that goal isn't bad writing. Real life people have all sorts of weird seemingly inconsistent immediate emotional reactions.

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well or you're just not reading, but I never said his development could have happened later on. I'm saying going from crying to docile is not in line with who he is. Just being ashamed isn't enough. If anything, that would make him more dangerous and likely to lash out. If anything, him lashing out would be somewhat cathartic. A single loss turning him docile is kinda pathetic. I think getting some sort of goal and realizing it's not what he truly wants is a much more believable way of dramatizing his change than boohoo, I took a beating. Vegeta is the type to take an action to prove something to himself is much more in character than what was presented in the manga. In the Cell arc, Vegeta only decides to give everything up not because he was beaten but because the person he deemed his greatest enemy had died. He could no longer achieve his greatest desire - defeat Kakarrot.

How is he taking a risk? If he's arrogant enough to believe he can defeat Freeza, why would he think pushing Gohan our of the way be a risk? Arbitrarily letting people live whom he deems not a threat when he had not so long ago murdered a village that included children is not a sign Vegeta is a good guy.

[90sDBZ]

It's not part of his characterization, it's simply filler.

I in no way downplayed his death. It's a watershed moment, but it's not enough to make him practically harmless. His self confidence has been broken, as fragile as it is, but do you not expect there to be pushback? In another thread you talked about Vegeta becoming Majin Vegeta as a midlife crisis. This would be the same thing. Beating the crap out of someone for daring to stand up to him is far more believable coming from him than becoming merely surly. He didn't go back to his old ways. He would've killed Gohan otherwise. A great deal many people don't like showing vulnerability. Combine that with the vicious bastard Vegeta still was and coming back after breaking down in front of his enemies is gonna come with consequences. This bully behavior. I've seen bullies get in fights after crying in school. It's a defense mechanism.

Hell, I even buy that he might get some perverse satisfaction out of Goku and Freeza dying. He always wanted to become the strongest and now he would be by default without having to lift a finger. I get he would want to fight Goku as a Super Saiyan and defeat him, but an immediate emotional reaction that feels inconsistent with that goal isn't bad writing. Real life people have all sorts of weird seemingly inconsistent immediate emotional reactions.

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well or you're just not reading, but I never said his development could have happened later on. I'm saying going from crying to docile is not in line with who he is. Just being ashamed isn't enough. If anything, that would make him more dangerous and likely to lash out. If anything, him lashing out would be somewhat cathartic. A single loss turning him docile is kinda pathetic. I think getting some sort of goal and realizing it's not what he truly wants is a much more believable way of dramatizing his change than boohoo, I took a beating. Vegeta is the type to take an action to prove something to himself is much more in character than what was presented in the manga. In the Cell arc, Vegeta only decides to give everything up not because he was beaten but because the person he deemed his greatest enemy had died. He could no longer achieve his greatest desire - defeat Kakarrot.

How is he taking a risk? If he's arrogant enough to believe he can defeat Freeza, why would he think pushing Gohan our of the way be a risk? Arbitrarily letting people live whom he deems not a threat when he had not so long ago murdered a village that included children is not a sign Vegeta is a good guy.

The Majin Vegeta thing was different because Goku was only on earth for 1 day and Vegeta needed to capitalize on the chance at any cost. During the Namek filler his bullying actions served no long term purpose, even if it did blow off steam.

How would you have handled him going forward then? What would you have be his reason to change?

[ABED]

He's a villain, of course he's going to act range of the moment.

Nothing about his journey is fundamentally different from what I'm saying to what his journey was in the manga, it's just a smoother transition. It seems you think his impetus for change is that he was beaten to death one time. A very fitting reaction to a powerluster who just got shown what true power is would be to exert dominance over someone else. Vegeta is not a secure person. He constantly gets duped into fights that he ends up losing for that reason.

[90sDBZ]

He's a villain, of course he's going to act range of the moment.

Nothing about his journey is fundamentally different from what I'm saying to what his journey was in the manga, it's just a smoother transition. It seems you think his impetus for change is that he was beaten to death one time. A very fitting reaction to a powerluster who just got shown what true power is would be to exert dominance over someone else. Vegeta is not a secure person. He constantly gets duped into fights that he ends up losing for that reason.

If getting beaten to death by the guy who made his life hell for years didn't serve as a catalyst to change, then what could? He'd already spent the best part of 2 arcs as a villain, so if he's still acting that way after being revived then he comes across as a hopeless case. You say you'd still have him turn good, but how? Can you be more specific about how you'd make it a smoother transition? I just find it hard to see how you can have it both ways, him still acting as bad as ever after Namek but somehow changing later on.

[IAmTheMilkMan]

I can kind of see it both ways.

On the one hand, the moment we see Vegeta on Earth along with the rest of the Planet Namek transplants is immediately preceded by his resurrection. And just before that, he was dead. Now, we have a loose understanding of what typical spirits may go through in the afterlife upon their deaths (though, honestly, I'm drawing a blank. I think it involves a line...?), but even taking that into consideration, not much in-universe time has passed since Vegeta died at the hands of Freeza. In fact, it's very likely that, to Vegeta, seemingly no time has passed since then. So what we have here is someone who has broken down for the first time in his life, in front of his greatest enemy and former/maybe still current(?) enemies, whose pride has taken a serious hit which, for Vegeta, is saying something, and then died. We, the audience, may be somewhat jaded when it comes to death in Dragon Ball at this point, but as far as Vegeta knew, that was the end of his life. Except... "Holy hell, am I alive again? And... was I just teleported to another planet? And, wait... you're telling me that Kararotto actually transformed into the legendary Super Saiyan, and he's kicking Freeza's ass? Freeza, my mortal enemy? And Kakarotto, that lower-class trash?" ...This all just happened as far Vegeta is concerned, and it's a lot to take in. I think we can forgive his somewhat passive attitude upon being teleported to Earth. The guy's got a lot on his mind.

And on the other hand, it's not like this is a permanent change of attitude for Vegeta. We find out quickly in the Android/Cell arc that Vegeta actually hasn't changed all that much. As I often do when discussing this topic, I will point to his remorseless murder of an innocent trucker during his fight with Android 18. Accident though it was, he didn't bat an eye. That does not strike me as someone who has learned the error of his ways.

The fact that Vegeta's transition from baddie to good guy is so clunky is what makes his character so compelling; up until the end of the original serialization, we're never quite sure how much Vegeta has really changed, and it's why he's such a blast to follow.

TL:DR - I think 90sDBZ is correct in that the filler doesn't make any sense when applied to the events immediately surrounding it, and I don't think Vegeta would do something like that at that particular moment. To be fair, though, I think ABED also mentioned something similar in that the filler is at odds with the material around it (correct me if I'm wrong). I also think ABED is correct in that Vegeta's death on Namek is not enough of a catalyst to immediately change who he is, and as reflected by the manga itself, I don't think it does.

It's no secret that filler material and I don't get along, but it's particularly bothersome to me when it seemingly seeks to assassinate the characters', erm... character. This happens a lot with Toei and their filler material--they zero in on one particular trait and dial it up to a hundred. For example: Kame Sen'nin is a pervert, Bulma is a conceited princess, Chi-Chi is an overbearing mother/wife, and Vegeta is a cocky jackass. It kills me that a lot of this filler has irredeemably tainted the perception of these characters among fans. I could count on one hand the amount of times that Chi-Chi maybe took things a little far in her role as a mother in the manga; the rest of the time she is a fairly harmless, if not downright sweet, person. Even the handful of times I'm referring to are largely forgivable because Chi-Chi just loves her son and husband very much and they admittedly put her through a lot of stress. Honestly, the woman deserves a goddamn break every once in a while. Sadly, though, the anime has made it so that people most often refer to Chi-Chi as a bitch. It frustrates me.

I think this filler you're talking about tries to do a similar thing to Vegeta. While it's true that Vegeta is definitely a cocky jackass, it's not the only personality trait that he has, which I feel is what the anime filler would have us believe. And while I'm not even sure that I've seen the material you're referring to, beating the snot out of Gohan sounds absurdly out of place for that portion of the story.

[ABED]

He's a villain, of course he's going to act range of the moment.

Nothing about his journey is fundamentally different from what I'm saying to what his journey was in the manga, it's just a smoother transition. It seems you think his impetus for change is that he was beaten to death one time. A very fitting reaction to a powerluster who just got shown what true power is would be to exert dominance over someone else. Vegeta is not a secure person. He constantly gets duped into fights that he ends up losing for that reason.

If getting beaten to death by the guy who made his life hell for years didn't serve as a catalyst to change, then what could? He'd already spent the best part of 2 arcs as a villain, so if he's still acting that way after being revived then he comes across as a hopeless case. You say you'd still have him turn good, but how? Can you be more specific about how you'd make it a smoother transition? I just find it hard to see how you can have it both ways, him still acting as bad as ever after Namek but somehow changing later on.

As far as we know, Freeza didn't make Vegeta's life hell. Vegeta was one of Freeza's elite officers. What about that beating was so terrible that it would upend Vegeta's whole view? Goku and his friends nearly winning was very easy to see why. Goku was a lower class warrior so he shouldn't have done as well as he did. It screwed with his view of the world. Vegeta knew Freeza was stronger than him.

I'm not the writer. The only problem I have with his transition is it feels like it's missing a step. THat's it. I'm not asking for Toriyama to fundamentally change what he wrote.

Vegeta's not acting exactly the same way. Nowhere did I say he should act the same way. If he did, he'd kill Gohan. Beating him badly and backing off with a minimum of effort is something new. He's killed people for less.

IAmtheMilkMan gets what I'm saying.