Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

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ABED
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Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:18 pm

I've finally seen Dragon Ball Super: Broly and while it's not DB at its best, I found myself enjoying it. Some elements worked for me, but many elements didn't, and even then, at the end of the movie, it left me feeling satisfied.

What worked:
First and foremost, the animation. It's flat out gorgeous.
The power scaling may not make a lick of sense, but the fights are impactful, though a tad on the long side
The humor
While Broly's sympathetic story doesn't work so much, I like where the story leaves him.
Vegeta's characterization is great. He's still very much Vegeta, but someone who has grown and learned from experience.
Freeza killing Paragus. It was a great use of continuity when he recalled Goku turning SSJ after Kuririn was killed, and seeing Freeza feign concern was hilarious.

What didn't:
It played on nostalgia for a one note character and the attempt to make him a sympathic character just doesn't work
The film is a tad on the long side and there was no reason to go back to the Saiyan backstory. Changes made to Bardock's (let's not get into the whole canonicity of the Bardock TV special) doesn't add much to the film beyond runtime.
Freeza being essentially a comic book or Saturday morning cartoon villain who constantly loses to the good guys but gets away swearing to get them one day. Compounding the problem is Freeza's desired wish is to become a few inches taller. It's like he forgot he used that joke before. Too bad the guy that took glee in murdering children and one of the most effective villains in all of DB is undercut so often and now by a joke and one Toriyama has used before. That said, the parallel to Bulma's desire to lose a few years but not too many made me chuckle.

I was never the biggest fan of the idea of DB coming back after all these years and still wish they would have an endgame in mind instead of some never ending story, but if subsequent stories entertain me like this, I'm more than okay with that.
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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:32 pm

Yeah the joke/parallel to Bulma landed perfectly, even the scene transition from Bulma to Freeza was done well. It was just very strange seeing the joke being used on Freeza of all people. Humor and light-hearted moments are good, but there needs to be a line somewhere.

The plot itself was very thin, and even a bit contradictory. The first half builds up Broli to be a character we feel sorry for, then the second half we're rooting for Goku/Vegeta/Gogeta to beat the living stuffing out of him. The real excitement for me was the improved art/animation. Super at its best animation still had the shiny, stiff characters that just didn't suit a show that is supposed to be known for its art.

Glad you enjoyed it. The recent manga arc apparently has a brand new villain, so hopefully it is adapted well for the anime.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:38 pm

The fight between the sympathetic Broly and our heroes is like when comic book superheroes fight each other. The reasons are rarely organic. It's just fun to see superheroes fight each other.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:48 pm

I...guess? It just felt like they threw his characterization out the window for 40 minutes and then brought it back in the last 10.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:53 pm

Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:48 pm
I...guess? It just felt like they threw his characterization out the window for 40 minutes and then brought it back in the last 10.
Not unlike superheroes so they can fight each other.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:53 pm
Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:48 pm
I...guess? It just felt like they threw his characterization out the window for 40 minutes and then brought it back in the last 10.
Not unlike superheroes so they can fight each other.
I mean, that's fine. I just don't really like it. Not when the fight is as long as it is. I prefer a superhero fight like Civil War where it is clear (during and after the fight) that the characters are holding back because they aren't trying to kill each other.

Goku acknowledges Broli is being used and can just live a peaceful life instead for one brief scene and then as Gogeta attempts to literally blow him away. It's not deal breaker material for me, I just wish there were a little something more to it. Building up Broli's character and then doing nothing with it felt pointless. But I am sure it will come into play when he is back in one of the inevitable future arcs of Super.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:02 pm

I don't know what's getting lost in translation. I'm not in favor of dropping characterization and logic, but it's just one of those things that happens most of the time in order to get two heroes to fight each other. Civil War, the movie not the comic, is one of the few exceptions. It's one of the weaknesses of this film. In order to make Broly's characterization different enough to justify this movie, but still make him the antagonist, Toriyama had to essentially make him fall under mind control. Of course, I'm not being literal, but it's in effect what's happening in the movie.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:05 pm

Nothing is getting lost, I'm just replying to your comment that it is normal for that to happen. I get it, but I don't like it. Your "it's just fun to see superheroes fight each other" post is what made me think you had no issue with this...uh...trope? And yes, I should have specified I was referring to the movie Civil War. I've never actually read the comic.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:09 pm

Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:05 pm
Nothing is getting lost, I'm just replying to your comment that it is normal for that to happen. I get it, but I don't like it. Your "it's just fun to see superheroes fight each other" post is what made me think you had no issue with this...uh...trope? And yes, I should have specified I was referring to the movie Civil War. I've never actually read the comic.
It is fun all other things being equal. If you thought my point was "I don't care about characterization that much if at all, just make them fight", then yes, something got lost. My bad I guess. Do I have an issue with the trope? I do prefer logical characterization, but if the fighting is fun, then I can shrug it off for a bit and enjoy it for what it is.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:10 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:53 pm
Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:48 pm
I...guess? It just felt like they threw his characterization out the window for 40 minutes and then brought it back in the last 10.
Not unlike superheroes so they can fight each other.
As someone who regurlaly reads superhero comic books.


No, not really.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by KBABZ » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:18 pm
Freeza's desired wish is to become a few inches taller. It's like he forgot he used that joke before.
I thought it was an intentional callback to the Red Ribbon arc, which as a fan of the original anime I VERY much appreciated. I feel it works because ultimately what Frieza's wish is doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the story, since the conflict is very much towards Broly and Frieza is helping make that happen.
Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:32 pm
The plot itself was very thin, and even a bit contradictory. The first half builds up Broli to be a character we feel sorry for, then the second half we're rooting for Goku/Vegeta/Gogeta to beat the living stuffing out of him.
I actually liked this facet a lot, you rarely get a fight in DBZ where you feel sympathy for both fighters. I don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around stories that do this, that we have to root for a specific combatant to lose.

In my opinion, making both characters sympathetic works a lot here because it accentuates the villainy of Frieza and Paragus; they're actively taking advantage of Broly to further their own selfish ends, and the backstory makes it clear that Broly does NOT enjoy raging out like he does in the film. They just don't care, and it makes the fight have a big element of tragedy, that there's no reason for it to even be happening. In that way, it makes Cheelai and Oran the true heroes of the story IMO by using the Dragon Balls to end the fight entirely, and Goku himself gets SERIOUS good guy points for realizing this himself and supporting Broly at the end of the movie because he could tell the fight was forced upon his opponent. That's pretty deep stuff for Dragon Ball.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:16 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:13 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:18 pm
Freeza's desired wish is to become a few inches taller. It's like he forgot he used that joke before.
I thought it was an intentional callback to the Red Ribbon arc, which as a fan of the original anime I VERY much appreciated. I feel it works because ultimately what Frieza's wish is doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the story, since the conflict is very much towards Broly and Frieza is helping make that happen.
Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:32 pm
The plot itself was very thin, and even a bit contradictory. The first half builds up Broli to be a character we feel sorry for, then the second half we're rooting for Goku/Vegeta/Gogeta to beat the living stuffing out of him.
I actually liked this facet a lot, you rarely get a fight in DBZ where you feel sympathy for both fighters. I don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around stories that do this, that we have to root for a specific combatant to lose.

In my opinion, making both characters sympathetic works a lot here because it accentuates the villainy of Frieza and Paragus; they're actively taking advantage of Broly to further their own selfish ends, and the backstory makes it clear that Broly does NOT enjoy raging out like he does in the film. They just don't care, and it makes the fight have a big element of tragedy, that there's no reason for it to even be happening. In that way, it makes Cheelai and Oran the true heroes of the story IMO by using the Dragon Balls to end the fight entirely, and Goku himself gets SERIOUS good guy points for realizing this himself and supporting Broly at the end of the movie because he could tell the fight was forced upon his opponent. That's pretty deep stuff for Dragon Ball.
My problem is that they don't do anything to make you feel sympathy for him during the fight. Especially once Gogeta comes in. It's just a one-sided beat down of a berserker that's only showing anger as an emotion.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by KBABZ » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:19 pm

Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:16 pm
My problem is that they don't do anything to make you feel sympathy for him during the fight. Especially once Gogeta comes in. It's just a one-sided beat down of a berserker that's only showing anger as an emotion.
I thought that was present just by Broly being in rage mode to begin with, a place he doesn't want to be.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Forte224 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:58 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:19 pm
Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:16 pm
My problem is that they don't do anything to make you feel sympathy for him during the fight. Especially once Gogeta comes in. It's just a one-sided beat down of a berserker that's only showing anger as an emotion.
I thought that was present just by Broly being in rage mode to begin with, a place he doesn't want to be.
He seemed pretty ready to fight Vegeta. His whole "he doesn't want to fight" thing never came up again in show or tell after he said it on Freeza's ship.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:02 am

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Production wise, this was a masterpiece. Apart from the CGI (which I wish they'd stop using), this is the best DB has ever looked. The fight choreography was also amazing.

The story however although not bad, it was flawed. I'm not a fan of this new version of Bardock and Broly's first movie in Z was overall good so there was no need to remake it. I'm also not a fan of Broly being a push over.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Zinnia » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:53 am

sintzu wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:02 am
this is the best DB has ever looked.
I personally disagree. Nothing will beat the classic look of Movie 12 & 13 to me (Janemba and Tapion). As far as art goes, they were perfect, while I could spot many weird or off model parts in Broly's movie.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:37 am

I overall enjoyed the movie, the biggest problem I have with it is for all the talk about Broly being the "protagonist" of the movie (usually to justify how shallow Goku and Vegeta's roles are), he has no agency or say of his own. We get the tragic backstory, we get the wonderful characterisation through body language (his reaction to Paragus pulling out the remote for the first time springs to mind) and then we just don't get anything.

The rest of the movie is just about what other characters want to do with him. Paragus and Freeza want him as a weapon, Goku wants a sparring partner, Cheelai and Lemo want him to be free I guess. We never learn what he wants since he spends the entire second half in rage mode. Even when he calms down in the final scene, he barely reacts to Goku and Cheelai's conversation about him at the end.

His reasons for having a rage mode aren't that well realised either. It just sort of happens and I guess we're meant to assume it's because of the genetic mutation that made him so powerful in the first place.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:50 am

Zinnia wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:53 am
I personally disagree. Nothing will beat the classic look of Movie 12 & 13 to me (Janemba and Tapion). As far as art goes, they were perfect, while I could spot many weird or off model parts in Broly's movie.
Those movies do look amazing so I can't argue with that.
Kataphrut wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:37 am
The rest of the movie is just about what other characters want to do with him. Paragus and Freeza want him as a weapon, Goku wants a sparring partner, Cheelai and Lemo want him to be free I guess.
Vegeta wanted to make up for movie 8 which he did, and in style. 8)
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:50 am

kemuri07 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:10 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:53 pm
Forte224 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:48 pm
I...guess? It just felt like they threw his characterization out the window for 40 minutes and then brought it back in the last 10.
Not unlike superheroes so they can fight each other.
As someone who regurlaly reads superhero comic books.


No, not really.
As someone who has read his fair share, it is absolutely the case. The rationale for them fighting is usually paper thin, as it is here.
KBABZ wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:13 pm
I thought it was an intentional callback to the Red Ribbon arc, which as a fan of the original anime I VERY much appreciated. I feel it works because ultimately what Frieza's wish is doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the story, since the conflict is very much towards Broly and Frieza is helping make that happen.
I like a good callback as well, but such a dumb wish for Freeza undercuts him WAY too much. It's out of character for him to be bothered by something so trivial as people calling him short.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Broly: A Fun Mixed Bag

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:15 am

Regarding Freeza’s wish, it initially baffled me as well, but now that I think about it, I can see what they were going for. If Freeza is going to be a recurring villain at this point, having the protagonists try to stop him from obtaining immortality on a regular basis would get pretty repetitive.

Granted, I don’t like the idea of Freeza essentially being a Saturday morning cartoon villain, but modern Dragon Ball is a lot like modern Star Wars at this point, in that it relies pretty heavily on fan service and nostalgia, and since Freeza is the franchise’s most iconic villain, it’s not surprising that they’d want an excuse to keep him around.

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