Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

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Bullza
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Fri May 10, 2019 12:04 am

PremiumSalt wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:21 pm
Whatever. I'm done arguing this. What you said came across as extremely bigoted
Don't be silly, how can you be bigoted towards something that you haven't even heard of before today?

You're talking about pandering in a series where such a thing would be entirely out of place and unnecessary for the sake of exposure in a children's fighting cartoon.

Where such a thing has brought other more appropriate series a lot of backlash already
JulieYBM wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:28 pm
Gokuu × Vegeta, Gohan × Future Trunks, Piccolo × Vegeta, Gohan × Picolo, Present Trunks × Goten, Zamasu × Gokuu Black and Caulifla × Kale for years.
Literally any series with any kind of fanbase has this so that's a complete non argument. There's images all over with Chris Griffin x Lois Griffin or Homer Simpson x Lisa Simpson and that's family

You will always get a minority that does that with a series this size.
Cursed Lemon wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:30 pm
I llove this line of logic so much.

"Having LGBT people in my line of sight = them pushing an agenda!"
In a series like this where relationships have no emphasis, where we have seen none of the married couples actually get married or usually get together, where husband's leave their wives for years on end...

Where three decade old characters have shown no attraction to anyone...

To suddenly out of the blue (because it's 2019) add in lesbian or gay characters?

Yeah that's the prime example of what an agenda would be.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 10, 2019 12:15 am

LOL, so what? What do you care if somebody other than you gets pandered to so long as the creator and consumer are happy? Why do The Queers© threaten you so much? It's quite possible to have Tenshinhan and Chaozu fuck in the same episode they kick major ass together.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Tian » Fri May 10, 2019 12:16 am

SaiyamanMS wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 pm
that we were a couple, she insisted on referring to us as “friends”. This is the kind of bullshit LGBT+ people have to deal with on a constant basis.

LGBT+ people need more mainstream representation in order to show that we’re just normal people, we do exist and that we’re every bit a regular part of society as cishet people.
I can relate to this. Well, not exactly because I'm not LGBT but I am an Aspie and there were times when I told people about my condition, they instantly thought I had some kind of intelectual disability, which it's not true. Asperger is not an intelectual disability but a social condition.

About TV's representation, I DO want an actual and faithful Asperger representation on TV, not the stereotypical one you see in stuff like Big Bang Theory. One that shows that Aspies are people with heart and soul too, not freaking robots with the knowledge of the entire Wikipedia or the Encyclopædia Britannica.

Sorry for having gone off-topic and somewhat personal but yes, you reminded me of something I've been thinking for while with that post about the saleswoman and constant bullshit you guys have to deal with... Not sure if you are gonna to agree with that something but here it is: that humankind still has got a lot to learn about what it is love and not only that, but also friendship*. We may have improved a lot if we compare the present with the past but still, there's a lot to learn.

*I don't really like when "neurotypicals" treat their friends like shit because of two things: 1) I DO valorize friendship and 2) it's like those "neurotypicals" are telling me that something kinda hard to get and really valuable for me is easy to get and just shit for them.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Fri May 10, 2019 12:48 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:15 am
LOL, so what? What do you care if somebody other than you gets pandered to so long as the creator and consumer are happy?
Ah well you see they aren't. They're never happy, that's the thing. Look at Avengers Endgame, they went out of their way to have the Russo director portray a gay person in what's probably going to be the biggest movie ever.

You'd think they'd be happy about that right? No. They complained because it wasn't gay enough.

If they add in a gay character then they'll complain "How come there isn't a lesbian character us females are gay too!". Then they add in one of those and next it's "Why are the transexuals being misrepresented! We're a minority just the same!"

I don't want it to turn into some agenda driven show because it'll ruin it and it'll turn the fan base against it as it has for other things. Pandering never works.
It's quite possible to have Tenshinhan and Chaozu fuck in the same episode they kick major ass together.
No it isn't. One is an adult man and one has the distinctive appearance and voice of a very small child. Such a thing would be very disturbed.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 10, 2019 12:58 am

Next thing you know they'll want to sit in the front seats on the bus and adopt children.

Won't somebody PlEaSe think of the children?

Like, fuck. If corporations want our money they've gotta do the things we say, like not normalize heterosexual cisgender folks as the only 'normal' people.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Fri May 10, 2019 1:13 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:58 am
If corporations want our money they've gotta do the things we say
It's a multi billion dollar franchise. It's been making money just fine since 1986 and Dragon Ball Super Broly just made fourteen times its budget which most other movies could only dream of.

They don't need to be told what to do. TV shows and Movies should never do what people say, that's been a known rule since forever.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by sintzu » Fri May 10, 2019 3:05 am

Bullza wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:48 am
Look at Avengers Endgame, they went out of their way to have the Russo director portray a gay person, You'd think they'd be happy about that right? No. They complained because it wasn't gay enough.
A lot of companies (mostly Western ones) do listen and either get attacked by the very people they're listening to, not make any more money than they would have wihtout the changes, or outright make less money. This applies to any kind of changes made in response to fans. You'd have a character get more screen time to please it's fans only for them to turn on the creator and say it wasn't good enough.

"If you listen to fans, you will be sitting next to them next year" is a great thing some sports guy said that has always stuck with me and in most cases, it's true.

Dragon Ball is Akira Toriyama's product and he should only do what he wants to do with it. If Toriyama wants to introduce more LGBT characters or give other characters (Gohan, Piccolo, etc.) the spotlight becuase HE believes in that direction then fine, but otherwise he should only do what he wants to do. If people don't like it they can simply move onto another franchise that provids them with what they want or become a creator themselves and make the story they want to see. This applies to everything such as horror games, if people think they're too scary they can simply play something else. Long movies also get criticized for being too long and to those people I say simply watch something shorter.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Jord » Fri May 10, 2019 3:53 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:05 am
Bullza wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:48 am
Look at Avengers Endgame, they went out of their way to have the Russo director portray a gay person, You'd think they'd be happy about that right? No. They complained because it wasn't gay enough.
A lot of companies (mostly Western ones) do listen and either get attacked by the very people they're listening to, not make any more money than they would have wihtout the changes, or outright make less money. This applies to any kind of changes made in response to fans. You'd have a character get more screen time to please it's fans only for them to turn on the creator and say it wasn't good enough.

"If you listen to fans, you will be sitting next to them next year" is a great thing some sports guy said that has always stuck with me and in most cases, it's true.

Dragon Ball is Akira Toriyama's product and he should only do what he wants to do with it. If Toriyama wants to introduce more LGBT characters or give other characters (Gohan, Piccolo, etc.) the spotlight becuase HE believes in that direction then fine, but otherwise he should only do what he wants to do. If people don't like it they can simply move onto another franchise that provids them with what they want or become a creator themselves and make the story they want to see. This applies to everything such as horror games, if people think they're too scary they can simply play something else. Long movies also get criticized for being too long and to those people I say simply watch something shorter.
Exactly. There's a reason why he's the creator and we're the fans. Even if I do not always agree with him, I'm glad that he and his editor do what they feel is right. It's one of the reasons why DragonBall still has that distinctive Japanese feel while having this enormous worldwide fan base. (And one of the reasons why the fanbase got so big in the first place) You can listen to fans' opinions but still what you think is right. Don't let the inmates take over the asylum, how well intentioned some of them may be.

I have nothing against including all kinds of characters but it should feel natural. Not suddenly changing a character who's been along for a long time just to please a minority. When that happens it usually feels incredibly forced and is a detriment to the character and the story. Just come up with a new character and don't make a spectacle out of it if you have to include such a thing.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by sintzu » Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 am

Jord wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:53 am
I have nothing against including all kinds of characters but it should feel natural. Not suddenly changing a character who's been along for a long time just to please a minority. When that happens it usually feels incredibly forced and is a detriment to the character and the story.
Vegetto is a great example of this. Toriyama originally intended on having Goku and Vegeta team up against Fused Zamasu but Toyotaro wanted to please the fans with Vegetto (he actually said this) which resulted in Vegetto being forced into the story and losing what separated him from Gogeta. We also may have missed out on some very interesting interactions between Goku and Vegeta that Toriyama had planned on. Once a creator starts listening to fans, it's no longer the creator's work. If someone wants to see Vegetto bad enough they can simply read DB Multiverse, there's no need for Toriyama or anyone else to change what they're doing for someone else.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Jord » Fri May 10, 2019 4:46 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 am
Jord wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:53 am
I have nothing against including all kinds of characters but it should feel natural. Not suddenly changing a character who's been along for a long time just to please a minority. When that happens it usually feels incredibly forced and is a detriment to the character and the story.
Vegetto is a great example of this. Toriyama originally intended on having Goku and Vegeta team up against Fused Zamasu but Toyotaro wanted to please the fans with Vegetto (he actually said this) which resulted in Vegetto being forced into the story and losing what separated him from Gogeta. We also may have missed out on some very interesting interactions between Goku and Vegeta that Toriyama had planned on. Once a creator starts listening to fans, it's no longer the creator's work. If someone wants to see Vegetto bad enough they can simply read DB Multiverse, there's no need for Toriyama or anyone else to change what they're doing for someone else.
I never knew that was a Toyotaro idea but it did feel very forced and ultimately disappointed. Suddenly the rules of Potara changed and it's exit Vegetto. It didn't add to the story. It felt more like a forced detour.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ABED » Fri May 10, 2019 5:54 am

SaiyamanMS wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 pm
I’m not going to say that Tenshinhan and Chaozu are a couple as there’s insufficient evidence, but the only arguments I’m seeing for why they definitely aren’t in a relationship and are “100% just friends” seem to be rooted in homophobia.
That's more than a tad disingenuous. There isn't sufficient evidence in either case beyond its sheer absence, but Tenshinhan hasn't shown sexual attraction to anyone. Also given that the only gay characters are stereotypes or villains, I'd say Tenshinhan most likely isn't gay. Hell, even the characters that aren't confirmed gay, but are flamboyant or on the effeminate side (Freeza and Zarbon) are also villains. I don't think it's conscious on Toriyama's part, but it's there none the less.
"If you listen to fans, you will be sitting next to them next year" is a great thing some sports guy said that has always stuck with me and in most cases, it's true.
I love that line. Thanks.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by SaiyamanMS » Fri May 10, 2019 6:35 am

ABED wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 5:54 am
That's more than a tad disingenuous. There isn't sufficient evidence in either case beyond its sheer absence, but Tenshinhan hasn't shown sexual attraction to anyone. Also given that the only gay characters are stereotypes or villains, I'd say Tenshinhan most likely isn't gay. Hell, even the characters that aren't confirmed gay, but are flamboyant or on the effeminate side (Freeza and Zarbon) are also villains. I don't think it's conscious on Toriyama's part, but it's there none the less.
This is true, hence why I’ve previously said I’d be more likely to consider him asexual than gay. I think it’s highly unlikely that Toriyama has ever thought of Tenshinhan and Chaozu as a couple based on his other portrayals of gay characters. That said, if he were in a relationship with anyone, Chaozu seems to be the only viable candidate.

He very clearly had no interest in Lunch despite her obvious interest in him, which I’d take as a strike against heterosexuality. But there’s also not sufficient evidence to really push the idea that he’s gay. His whole life revolves around martial arts, sex doesn’t appear to be a concern for him, hence my personal opinion that he’s probably asexual.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Dr. Casey » Fri May 10, 2019 6:40 am

On the topic of Chaozu's age: even if he was born the morning of the 22nd Budokai (which he wasn't :P), that would make him 30 by the series' end. And yeah, I generally think of Tenshinhan as asexual or at least very close to it. I could see 22nd Budokai being flustered if a girl came on to him aggressively enough, given that in his first story arc Tenshinhan was more emotive and had more of a pulse (and that he would have been stunned by being shown any kind of positive regard given his reaction to being cheered for once the battle was over), but that's about it.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Cipher » Fri May 10, 2019 8:52 am

Yes.


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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 10, 2019 9:35 am

Cipher wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:52 am
Yes.

Finally, a man of culture.
Bullza wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:13 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:58 am
If corporations want our money they've gotta do the things we say
It's a multi billion dollar franchise. It's been making money just fine since 1986 and Dragon Ball Super Broly just made fourteen times its budget which most other movies could only dream of.

They don't need to be told what to do. TV shows and Movies should never do what people say, that's been a known rule since forever.
Thanks, I'm sure the multi-billion dollar transnational corporations need you to defend them and their right to use our infrastructure and airwaves to promote their product free of having to actually earn our financial support.

The disdain you've shown in regard for and towards the simple idea of "LOL, this would be cool" and "hey, it's nice when these soulless Hollywood products casually insert LGBTQIA+ folks" all so as to shit on a vocal minority of people that you don't like the behavior of--rather than discuss on the merits of the principles at hand--is merely too silly for me to let pass without noting.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Kokonoe » Fri May 10, 2019 9:54 am

In fanfiction yes. In the actual story? No.

No need to force straight characters into gay roles, what we need is original gay characters.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:09 am

I've always been a proponent of letting writers make whatever the hell they want rather than tying to please every demographic under the sun. Push to get more authors in your demo a shot, not try to make other franchises do it. Nobody's entitled to have anything appeal to then or represent them
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by sintzu » Fri May 10, 2019 10:16 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:09 am
I've always been a proponent of letting writers make whatever the hell they want rather than tying to please every demographic under the sun. Nobody's entitled to have anything appeal to then or represent them
The problem with listening to fans is that you will be expected to listen to everyone which will result in whatever product eventually collapsing under the pressure.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ABED » Fri May 10, 2019 10:36 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:35 am
Thanks, I'm sure the multi-billion dollar transnational corporations need you to defend them and their right to use our infrastructure and airwaves to promote their product free of having to actually earn our financial support.

The disdain you've shown in regard for and towards the simple idea of "LOL, this would be cool" and "hey, it's nice when these soulless Hollywood products casually insert LGBTQIA+ folks" all so as to shit on a vocal minority of people that you don't like the behavior of--rather than discuss on the merits of the principles at hand--is merely too silly for me to let pass without noting.
Where I disagree with you is the idea that they could somehow know what millions of people want considering we all have different preferences. Not to mention, new ideas are about giving people things they didn't know they want. Artists should make the product they want to make, not pander to the audience. There is an audience for stories with LGBT characters and there will be more and more artists willing and able to tell those stories. The audience isn't owed anything. It's a misunderstanding of the relationship between artist and audience.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Jord » Fri May 10, 2019 10:48 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:35 am
Cipher wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:52 am
Yes.

Finally, a man of culture.
Bullza wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 1:13 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:58 am
If corporations want our money they've gotta do the things we say
It's a multi billion dollar franchise. It's been making money just fine since 1986 and Dragon Ball Super Broly just made fourteen times its budget which most other movies could only dream of.

They don't need to be told what to do. TV shows and Movies should never do what people say, that's been a known rule since forever.
Thanks, I'm sure the multi-billion dollar transnational corporations need you to defend them and their right to use our infrastructure and airwaves to promote their product free of having to actually earn our financial support.

The disdain you've shown in regard for and towards the simple idea of "LOL, this would be cool" and "hey, it's nice when these soulless Hollywood products casually insert LGBTQIA+ folks" all so as to shit on a vocal minority of people that you don't like the behavior of--rather than discuss on the merits of the principles at hand--is merely too silly for me to let pass without noting.
So, they're "soulless Hollywood products" because they don't feature every minority under the sun? I guess millions of people don't care about how "soulless" the products are then. It's quite simple, the movie business is a business. Business thrives on supply and demand. If the demand is high, the or a product will follow. If everyone in Japan was crazy about pink kangaroos, chances are that pink kangaroos would be featured in existing or new manga's. But people don't so there are (as far as I know) no manga's about pink kangaroos. Niche markets aren't financially interesting enough even if they're quite vocal online.

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:15 am
LOL, so what? What do you care if somebody other than you gets pandered to so long as the creator and consumer are happy? Why do The Queers© threaten you so much? It's quite possible to have Tenshinhan and Chaozu fuck in the same episode they kick major ass together.
And that is just disturbing considering how Chiaotzu looks like a child....

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