Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

[JulieYBM]

I've always been a proponent of letting writers make whatever the hell they want rather than tying to please every demographic under the sun. Push to get more authors in your demo a shot, not try to make other franchises do it. Nobody's entitled to have anything appeal to then or represent them

As a creator I agree that our content should reflect whatever we please and our interests only. Any finagling should be done of the mass-consumption works of your Disneys and your Warner Bros., whose works are without a doubt not the personal works of the creative staff but of a means-testing worshiping marketing team in which no sense of personal investment from the creative staff permeates. Works independent of the commercial studio scene are a separate issue. I'm not going to tell an independent filmmaker who makes a movies about how much they hate trans girls and wants them to choke on their own vomit in their sleep that they cannot make that film or must be censored.

So, they're "soulless Hollywood products" because they don't feature every minority under the sun? I guess millions of people don't care about how "soulless" the products are then. It's quite simple, the movie business is a business. Business thrives on supply and demand. If the demand is high, the or a product will follow. If everyone in Japan was crazy about pink kangaroos, chances are that pink kangaroos would be featured in existing or new manga's. But people don't so there are (as far as I know) no manga's about pink kangaroos. Niche markets aren't financially interesting enough even if they're quite vocal online.

No, they're soulless Hollywood products because they are aimed at the lowest common denominator to earn maximized profits. Corporations are not human beings, they have no human rights and they are not to be respected, they are to be used to serve a function for society's benefit because they are merely a system. Inanimate objects are not to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Like, what millions of Americans want doesn't matter if it's morally wrong? I'm sure there was a point where millions of Americans didn't want to see interracial couples up on the big screen, either. It doesn't mean we shouldn't hold corporate power responsible for their part in normalizing such bigotry or canonizing principled stances on harmless liberties like interracial marriage.

I made it pretty clear at the beginning of this thread that my stances on the subject were:

1. Toriyama probably doesn't care or think about the subject.
2. The consumer can do whatever they want with a product if they are able to justify their further fictionalization of that product. For example, there is just enough passionate expression of feelings between Tenshinhan and Chaozu and what they mean to one another that their relationship can easily pass for a pansexual love.

LOL, so what? What do you care if somebody other than you gets pandered to so long as the creator and consumer are happy? Why do The Queers© threaten you so much? It's quite possible to have Tenshinhan and Chaozu fuck in the same episode they kick major ass together.

And that is just disturbing considering how Chiaotzu looks like a child....

1. I wasn't being entirely literal but I'm sure somebody has drawn Tenshinhan and Chaozu fucking.
2. lol_smear_attempts.mp3

[ruler9871]

Hell, even the characters that aren't confirmed gay, but are flamboyant or on the effeminate side (Freeza and Zarbon) are also villains. I don't think it's conscious on Toriyama's part, but it's there none the less.

What about Whis (the most blantantly effeminate character in the franchise)? He's not a villain.

[Bullza]

A lot of companies (mostly Western ones) do listen and either get attacked by the very people they're listening to, not make any more money than they would have wihtout the changes, or outright make less money.

Yeah it all happens all the time. Another example, there was Battlefield 5, the developers decided to add female characters as soldiers who were on the frontline to be inclusive and diverse.

Game received a ton of backlash, massive because it made no sense for that game. The staff ended up commenting on it, that only made it worse.

So what happened? The games sales dropped by over half, they failed to meet sales figures and EA's stocks dropped to the worst in a decade.

That is what happens when you try to pander to people. You lose more than you gain.

The disdain you've shown in regard for and towards the simple idea of "LOL, this would be cool" and "hey, it's nice when these soulless Hollywood products casually insert LGBTQIA+ folks" all so as to shit on a vocal minority of people that you don't like the behavior of--rather than discuss on the merits of the principles at hand--is merely too silly for me to let pass without noting.

You only want something like this to be included because of your own selfish desires and insecurities.

You're not thinking whether it actually makes sense within the concept of the series. It's a series where any relationships are practically glossed over and the only physical attraction shown of any note is with Master Roshi as a gag.

To then just randomly shoehorn in characters with different sexualities would only turn the fan base against it for trying to pander and be "woke".

Tien and Chiaotzu having a romantic relationship when one is practically a child? That itself is a warped kind of thinking and would never even be allowed on TV.

[mfwlegend3]

1. I wasn't being entirely literal but I'm sure somebody has drawn Tenshinhan and Chaozu fucking.
2. lol_smear_attempts.mp3

Given your admitted pro-pedo stance when it comes to cartoon children being explicitly depicted in art in the past I wouldn't be surprised if you've actually researched this.

But on topic though I doubt it. They're more of lifelong friends with their shared history dating back to them being under Tsuru-sen'nin.

[ABED]

I've always been a proponent of letting writers make whatever the hell they want rather than tying to please every demographic under the sun. Push to get more authors in your demo a shot, not try to make other franchises do it. Nobody's entitled to have anything appeal to then or represent them

As a creator I agree that our content should reflect whatever we please and our interests only. Any finagling should be done of the mass-consumption works of your Disneys and your Warner Bros., whose works are without a doubt not the personal works of the creative staff but of a means-testing worshiping marketing team in which no sense of personal investment from the creative staff permeates. Works independent of the commercial studio scene are a separate issue. I'm not going to tell an independent filmmaker who makes a movies about how much they hate trans girls and wants them to choke on their own vomit in their sleep that they cannot make that film or must be censored.

So, they're "soulless Hollywood products" because they don't feature every minority under the sun? I guess millions of people don't care about how "soulless" the products are then. It's quite simple, the movie business is a business. Business thrives on supply and demand. If the demand is high, the or a product will follow. If everyone in Japan was crazy about pink kangaroos, chances are that pink kangaroos would be featured in existing or new manga's. But people don't so there are (as far as I know) no manga's about pink kangaroos. Niche markets aren't financially interesting enough even if they're quite vocal online.

No, they're soulless Hollywood products because they are aimed at the lowest common denominator to earn maximized profits. Corporations are not human beings, they have no human rights and they are not to be respected, they are to be used to serve a function for society's benefit because they are merely a system. Inanimate objects are not to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Like, what millions of Americans want doesn't matter if it's morally wrong? I'm sure there was a point where millions of Americans didn't want to see interracial couples up on the big screen, either. It doesn't mean we shouldn't hold corporate power responsible for their part in normalizing such bigotry or canonizing principled stances on harmless liberties like interracial marriage.

I made it pretty clear at the beginning of this thread that my stances on the subject were:

1. Toriyama probably doesn't care or think about the subject.
2. The consumer can do whatever they want with a product if they are able to justify their further fictionalization of that product. For example, there is just enough passionate expression of feelings between Tenshinhan and Chaozu and what they mean to one another that their relationship can easily pass for a pansexual love.

LOL, so what? What do you care if somebody other than you gets pandered to so long as the creator and consumer are happy? Why do The Queers© threaten you so much? It's quite possible to have Tenshinhan and Chaozu fuck in the same episode they kick major ass together.

And that is just disturbing considering how Chiaotzu looks like a child....

1. I wasn't being entirely literal but I'm sure somebody has drawn Tenshinhan and Chaozu fucking.
2. lol_smear_attempts.mp3

Corporations are just entities made up of people, same as you and me. If you don't own a share, you don't get a say. The most you can do is vote with your wallet. The customer can't do whatever with a product they don't own. You're free to imagine it, but that's it.

And for the record, DB isn't a relationship show. What few they've shown aren't that great. The only one that's marginally good is Gohan and Videl. I understand the importance art has and seeing ones self on screen, but it doesn't have to be shoehorned into every single series especially one where even heterosexual relationships aren't the focus or done well. I get why you and others would take a stance on the issue, but I don't understand why you would take a seemingly hardline stance on this case.

If you truly believe they are heartless and soulless, wouldn't it stand to reason that representation from their products would be pandering as opposed to artful?

[SaiyamanMS]

No need to force straight characters into gay roles, what we need is original gay characters.

There’s admittedly not enough evidence to properly assert Tenshinhan is gay. There’s even less evidence supporting the idea that he’s straight though. This right here is a prime example of societal heteronormativity, the idea that everyone is straight and cisgender unless stated otherwise.

Dozens of Dragon Ball characters have never shown any physical or romantic attraction to anyone on screen. There’s just as little evidence of them being straight as there is for being gay. Yet people kick up shit when it’s suggested “Could they be gay?” because “No, we would have seen evidence.”, yet if we were to propose that they were straight on just as little evidence there would be no objection whatsoever from these same people because “Being straight is normal. It’s the default.”

And while it may be true that cisgender heterosexual people outnumber LGBT people, it doesn’t make us any less “normal” or “default”.

I wouldn’t try to definitively assert that any character whose sexuality was unconfirmed was gay, but I also wouldn’t make any assertions of them being straight either.

[Bullza]

I wouldn’t try to definitively assert that any character whose sexuality was unconfirmed was gay, but I also wouldn’t make any assertions of them being straight either.

Pretty much every single character in the series who has shown any attraction towards anyone has been shown to be heterosexual.

Oolong, Yamcha, Bulma, Chi-Chi, Launch, Roshi, Old Kai, Krillin, Ribrianne, Vegeta, Gohan Videl, Grandpa Gohan, Erasa, Trunks, Future Trunks, Mai, Marin, Jaco, Nam, Jewel, Mr. Satan, Dr. Briefs etc.

It's a pretty safe assertion to make. Even Tien blushed when Oolong suggested he and Launch were a cute couple in the anime.

[SSJGAffleck]

They're as romantic as Turk and JD

EAGLE!

This is the best thing I've ever seen! It's just Guy Love, that's all it is.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Chaotzu isn't a kid... he's just short. Krillin is too, does that mean that 18 is a pedophile?

[Bullza]

Chaotzu isn't a kid... he's just short. Krillin is too, does that mean that 18 is a pedophile?

No, Krillin actually is just short but he otherwise he looks, acts and sounds like an adult man.

Chiaotzu has the distinctive appearance of a small child complete with the cherub face, the voice of a small child and acts like a child.

[PremiumSalt]

Chaotzu isn't a kid... he's just short. Krillin is too, does that mean that 18 is a pedophile?

No, Krillin actually is just short but he otherwise he looks, acts and sounds like an adult man.

Chiaotzu has the distinctive appearance of a small child complete with the cherub face, the voice of a small child and acts like a child.

Ok, that doesn't make him literally a child. Unless you unironically think he's been a child for 27 years. Because we first see him at the 22nd Budokai, in Age 753, and the most recent we've seen him in canon is in the lead up to the TOP, in Age 780.

[Bullza]

Ok, that doesn't make him literally a child. Unless you unironically think he's been a child for 27 years. Because we first see him at the 22nd Budokai, in Age 753, and the most recent we've seen him in canon is in the lead up to the TOP, in Age 780.

Yeah obviously he ain't a child, Chiaotzu is like 42 years old as of the Broly movie.

It doesn't make a scrap of difference, it's still a child like looking, acting and sounding human being. People will still find it disturbing and sick either way, it wouldn't happen to fly because "well techinalllllly he's an adult".

The only gay character in the series also happened to be a child paedophile. General Blue was attracted to Obotchaman, who was an android so not technically a child but that was still weird as well which is why the dub had to change it.

[Brodes]

I'm just not sure why anybody thinks Tenshinhan bring homosexual, (homoromantic) asexual or pansexual would change anything about the series. Its not like he would suddenly be too busy fucking to fight, it would just mean that if he was any of those orientations it's just part of who he was. it wouldn't change his character at all. He would still be extremely loyal to and protective of Chaozu, he would still strive to be a better fighter, he would still be stoic, he would still show no interest in Launch. And that is a good thing. There is literally no downside to doing it, which is highlighted by the "there's no evidence for it, so it can't be true" argument. There's no evidence for either reading so read into the character as much as you want. There's nothing wrong with that.

I certainly see him as a homoromantic asexual man. But get that other people might not.

But I don't have anytime for bullshit "but think of the children" or "if nobody has said he is gay he has to be straight has to has to has to be" arguments".

[jjgp1112]

I don't like the idea of shows doing completely empty political pandering for no reason other than a subset of fans demanding it. It's a pretty awkward spot

[SaiyamanMS]

I don't like the idea of shows doing completely empty political pandering for no reason other than a subset of fans demanding it. It's a pretty awkward spot

The idea that including LGBT people in media is political pandering is just as absurd as saying that having black people appear in media is political pandering.

[Gaffer Tape]

A seemingly simple question is deceptively complex due to the various cultural and sociological baggage contained within.

Traditionally, I have always held that they're not, and I still do. Typically, I feel that most of the time (maybe less so nowadays) that it's brought up, it's done in such a snickering, puerile "lol gay" way that's, quite frankly, insulting and damaging on multiple levels. It heavily implies homosexuality is a joke or wrong. It even more heavily reinforces the toxically masculine idea that it's impossible or worthy of mockery for two men to show platonic affection and love for each other. That the only reason two men would live together and be protective of each other is because "they has the sex, lolz!" It's such an emotionally stunted way of looking at the world.

Unfortunately, there's another reason why some people vehemently deny and turn up their nose at the very idea of these character being a couple. And that's the "Think of the children" crowd, the "SJWs are ruining my punchy man cartoon show" crowd, and the "Why do they have to be gay? Why can't they just be normal?" crowd. At best, they are well-intentioned people who simply have not had the experience to realize that they are viewing the world through an extremely biased, heteronormative lens, and so spout nonsense like "Everyone's straight (default) until proven gay (abnormal)" without realizing just how insulting that is. People who immediately default to complaining about shoehorning romance into a work of fiction while turning a blind eye to all the heterosexual romances already present (because that's what they're used to seeing, they don't notice it). And as someone who was raised in Mississippi in the '90s (where calling something "gay" was the most common insult among teenage boys), I regret to say that I fell into that category for quite awhile before I grew the hell up. At worst, they are openly phobic and hateful and dismissive of these topics, and even after having had their biases explained to them, still find no problem with labeling anything that's not like them "wrong" or "sick" or "stupid." So it's completely understandable how someone strongly asserting that they aren't a couple might make users suspicious of that person's motives, especially if it goes down the rabbit hole into multiple, cringeworthy bigoted posts in a row...

However, and a big however, on the other hand, is that there is an entirely different group of people who do see these two characters as a romantic couple. To people who do still feel marginalized, who even to this day have to struggle to find fictional characters who look or act or love like them, it has been common practice to have to grasp out to any lifeline they can, to read between the lines, and to "adopt" certain characters just because there's the tiniest possibility they might be able to be like you. If that's the best you typically get, you have to make do. And, yes, I do agree that fans can and do relate to and love characters regardless of whether or not they have the same skin color, gender, or sexual orientation as themselves. We're all human, and we're all connected. But people who have had the luxury of being inundated all their lives with fictional heroes just like them are far too quick to dismiss the idea of inclusion as unnecessary because, once again, they're seeing the world only through their own, personal, myopic lens and not realizing that what's so commonplace to them they never even notice it is something other groups are desperate to see. And that's something I've had to become more sensitive to as I've gotten older. So while I stand by what I said in my opening paragraph as to why I don't think they're a couple because that carries a message and mindset that's important to me, I can equally understand how others can look at them and see something important to them.

To get off the deep trains of thought, though, I'd say evidence in the series suggests to me that Tenshinhan is probably asexual. I'd say Goku is as well...

[ruler9871]

It even more heavily reinforces the toxically masculine idea that it's impossible or worthy of mockery for two men to show platonic affection and love for each other. That the only reason two men would live together and be protective of each other is because "they has the sex, lolz!" It's such an emotionally stunted way of looking at the world.

Why the hell else would 2 unrelated men choose to willingly spend their entire lives together? I've never heard of any group of straight men from any culture doing that (and platonic love is a myth). So its common sense to assume that they're gay, not "toxic masculinity" (which is a stupid, misandrist concept).

[Bullza]

The idea that including LGBT people in media is political pandering is just as absurd as saying that having black people appear in media is political pandering.

That's such a ridiculous thing to say.

Again, seeing as they've only included two gay characters in the entire 35 year old franchise, one a child paedophile from all the way back in the 1986 and the other a completely throwaway gag character most people couldn't name, then for them to start randomly shoehorning them in now in 2019, an era where everyone is already trying to be as PC and woke as possible is exactly what pandering is.

[jjgp1112]

I don't like the idea of shows doing completely empty political pandering for no reason other than a subset of fans demanding it. It's a pretty awkward spot

The idea that including LGBT people in media is political pandering is just as absurd as saying that having black people appear in media is political pandering.

When you drop in something that has no relevance or meaning to the show at all just to say you did it, it does come off as pandering. As a black guy myself, white guilt fueled tokenism is very annoying. I'd rather see a new black character or series rather then "Hey we made this guy black now. But not too black!"

[jjgp1112]

It even more heavily reinforces the toxically masculine idea that it's impossible or worthy of mockery for two men to show platonic affection and love for each other. That the only reason two men would live together and be protective of each other is because "they has the sex, lolz!" It's such an emotionally stunted way of looking at the world.

Why the hell else would 2 unrelated men choose to willingly spend their entire lives together? I've never heard of any group of straight men from any culture doing that (and platonic love is a myth). So its common sense to assume that they're gay, not "toxic masculinity" (which is a stupid, misandrist concept).

Yikes. Whole Lotta stuff to unpack here