Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat May 11, 2019 9:38 pm

SaiyamanMS wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 3:50 pm
Do Rhodey and Falcon in the MCU count as pandering because they’re black and the majority of other characters in the franchise (prior to Black Panther) are white? Or is being black just an aspect of the fact they’re multidimensional characters who happen to exist among other people who aren’t black? Same as LGBT people, except you can’t tell if someone is LGBT just by looking at them. You often can’t tell that someone is LGBT unless they outright state it to you.
It really depends on how it's done. A lot of clueless white people cling to the notion of "color blindness" wherein they blindly insert different people to check off a demographic quota while doing nothing to actually acknowledge their unique cultural upbringing and struggles beyond whatever surface level understanding they have. The end result doesn't really do much to help people in their bubble actually understand anything. It's an empty gesture.

Sure, a universe where a black character could just seamlessly go in the background and appear no different than anybody else would be fine (though kinda lame). But then reality happens and hey, why's this white girl calling the police on him when he's just waiting for his Uber? And why is this fried chicken so damn good compared to other places?!
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Sat May 11, 2019 9:54 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 8:27 pmSo what you're saying is that the staff of Battlefield 5 are idiots...
My own opinion on it doesn't matter. It was an example. Whether the developers were right to include women or not...you could argue that I guess but the thing of note is that they tried this same "inclusion" and "diversity" gimmick despite it not being an appropriate match for that series.

And it backfired because of it and they lost money on it, a lot of money and sales went down the drain because of this exact same unnecessary pandering.
it's a simple and easy thing to do to lessen the demonization of perfectly valid sentient beings from being immorally violated
It doesn't matter how easy it is. It's about it being necessary. Dragon Ball isn't some coming of age social drama, it's a fun action packed show about fighting aliens and that's all that people watch it for.

They start shoehorning in these different sexualities for the sake of it then people will see it for what is and people will turn on it because they know it's not the appropriate show for it.
Give me a fucking break on 'concept of the series', the series can be about whatever the fuck the staff of any given series, special, movie, game comic or episode feel like creating.
No actually it can't. The show evolved over time and has for the past 25 years or so found its footing, it's winning formula, it's golden ticket that still to this day pays out despite the same formula repeating itself.

They move away from that to become some kind of SJW ridden series that preaches and panders and they will lose people in no time just as it's happened to Supergirl and other TV shows.
So, your argument is that the financial security of Dragon Ball lies in a bunch of bigots and any reflection of the diverse fandom outside of the acceptable white cishet male base is unacceptable?
Not sure what a "cishet" is, sounds like another made up word but the show doesn't need to be reflective of any fandom. Why would it? It's a fantasy series with talking cats and pigs.

Once again, Dragon Ball is already hugely popular with black people despite the fact that the most notable black character in the whole franchise was Staff Officer Black who was killed in 1986.

If black people are secure and happy enough to love Dragon Ball despite that then everyone else should be.
So as opposed to 'pandering' to minorities they should pander to a rigid, restrictive system without trying anything new?
Yes, especially as their pandering to this "restrictive" system has to date successfully seen them gross in excess of $24 billion.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... franchises

Anything new that they should try should be in regards to the story, world building, new planets, new races etc. Things that actually matter for this series, that will help it grow and maintain its popularity. Not shoehorning in a disturbed paedophile relationship between an adult and a child looking clown.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat May 11, 2019 10:23 pm

Bullza wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 9:54 pm Not sure what a "cishet" is, sounds like another made up word
I'm only choosing this specific example because it's the most recent, but good gravy, for someone so admittedly ignorant on pretty much every term and concept discussed in this thread, you sure somehow manage to already have a ready-made derisive opinion on every single one of them. I can practically see your eyes rolling with every variation of "I have no idea what *blank* is, but boy is *blank* stupid." You asked earlier how you could possibly be a bigot towards things you'd never heard of prior to today. Well, congratulations. You somehow found a way!

Seriously, I just don't get this. It is fine to be ignorant towards things and admit that. It's how you learn and grow. But you keep on admitting you have no idea what you're talking about in the same breath that you're passing judgment against things you know nothing about. How can you even have an opinion on any of this when you so freely admit we're talking a foreign language to you? This is the time for you to stop talking and start listening. Educate yourself. And if you came at it from a less condescending, judgmental tone, I'm sure many people here would be happy to explain whatever it is you need clarification on.

For example, in this case "cishet" is an abbreviated portmanteau of "cisgendered heterosexual." The former term refers to a person whose gender identity matches the sex they were born into. Heterosexual is a person of one sex who is attracted to someone of the opposite sex. In other words, unless I've missed my guess entirely, it refers to someone like you in regards to your place on the sexuality and gender identity spectra.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by SaiyamanMS » Sat May 11, 2019 10:29 pm

Bullza wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 9:54 pm Not sure what a "cishet" is, sounds like another made up word but the show doesn't need to be reflective of any fandom. Why would it? It's a fantasy series with talking cats and pigs.
I literally personally defined the word “cishet” for people like you earlier in this very thread.
SaiyamanMS wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 pm LGBT+ people need more mainstream representation in order to show that we’re just normal people, we do exist and that we’re every bit a regular part of society as cishet people. (That’s cisgender and heterosexual, in case you don’t understand the word “cishet”.)
Bullza wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 9:54 pm If black people are secure and happy enough to love Dragon Ball despite that then everyone else should be.
I’m queer and I love Dragon Ball. I don’t need queer representation in the series to enjoy it, but there’s no reason for me to be opposed to it either, which apparently you are based on your constant temper tantrums about how SJWs are ruining everything by asking for inclusion.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Sat May 11, 2019 10:49 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 10:23 pm I can practically see your eyes rolling with every variation of "I have no idea what *blank* is, but boy is *blank* stupid."
Given the explanations I keep being given for these things then it only seems appropriate. Now you're telling me that a "cishnet"... is essentially just a man saying "I'm a man". Yeah? There's a word for that? Doesn't that describe like 99+% of the human population?

In any case, my opinion wasn't that I was against these things existing or being a thing in the first place. It's them being shoehorned into the show. So to have a character that wasn't a "cisnet" or a man saying "I'm not a man"...in Dragon Ball, well there's no purpose for it.

Just like the show also doesn't need to pander by including characters with specific physical or mental disabilities because those people do exist as well. This ain't that show.
SaiyamanMS wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 10:29 pm I don’t need queer representation in the series to enjoy it
Nobody really needs any representation to this enjoy this show.

Dragon Ball is also very popular in the Middle East and there hasn't been a Middle Eastern character since Nam. Always been very popular with females and you could count the female characters of any significance on one hand.

Dragon Ball is not a show that needs to start pandering by adding disabled characters, down syndrome characters, gay characters, mixed race characters etc. It's not a show that's reflective of ordinary humanity.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat May 11, 2019 10:57 pm

Bullza wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 10:49 pm Now you're telling me that a "cishnet"... is essentially just a man saying "I'm a man". Yeah? There's a word for that? Doesn't that describe like 99+% of the human population?
Phew. If you think 99+% of the human population is "man," I have some shocking news for you. Allow me introduce you to "woman" for starters. You might recognize them as typically the ones that incubate tiny humans until they're ready to enter the world as well as collectively and individually possessing countless other traits. And the majority of them as well would identify as "cishet." So, no, it is not synonymous with man. Or woman. That would be like saying that calling someone "Asian" is essentially just saying that person is a man. Both of those things might be true. But each of those terms describes a different characteristic, and they can very easily be mutually exclusive. Saying that you're a "man" tells me nothing about your sexuality or your identification with your gender. And since those are relevant to the conversation you're attempting to have, it's nice to have a word that easily and clearly identifies those aspects.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat May 11, 2019 11:10 pm

If I may be curt: Bullza, you are not an honest actor here. You have the ability to make play at contributing to the community and therefore have the responsibility and skills necessary to research a word you do not know, like every other person here does.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Sat May 11, 2019 11:16 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 10:57 pm Phew. If you think 99+% of the human population is "man,"...
You know what I meant so we'll bypass that.
Saying that you're a "man" tells me nothing about your sexuality or your identification with your gender.
If someone tells you that they are a man...then that person is identifying as a man. The reason the word was even brought was out of him saying this "You can't include anyone who isn't white and cishet, it'll quantifiably harm the profits of The Corporations!" "

So based on your own description of what a cishet is...why would Dragon Ball ever be that kind of series that would have a character that wasn't a cishet? Even saying "white" is weird seeing as most characters of race in Dragon Ball are Asian to begin with.

The only white people in Dragon Ball are the Brief family. I don't see white people asking for more white characters either.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat May 11, 2019 11:28 pm

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat May 11, 2019 11:28 pm

Bullza wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 11:16 pm You know what I meant so we'll bypass that.
No. We won't bypass that. Because while it seems like I was just being snarky, the fact that you so easily tripped up on that is tantamount to my point. A man can be cishet. A man can be cis and not het. A man can be het and not cis. As the Vulcans say, infinite diversity in infinite combinations. Yet you identify "cis" and "het" as being synonymous with man when neither of those traits need be present, and you did it solely because you cannot see past your own self. You are cis and het and a man; therefore, those things go together. Believe it or not, there are other people in the world besides you. Your experience is not the default. And it's really important that you learn to see past that.
The reason the word was even brought was out of him saying this "You can't include anyone who isn't white and cishet, it'll quantifiably harm the profits of The Corporations!"
As it is seemingly more and more relevant, I just have to say that I sincerely hope that was just an accident on your part and is not further indicative of your views on this subject.
So based on your own description of what a cishet is...why would Dragon Ball ever be that kind of series that would have a character that wasn't a cishet?
Um, because, as you yourself constantly say, this is a series about fighting, and neither being cisgendered nor being heterosexual has anything to do with fighting. Therefore, a fighter can very easily belong to categories that are not those with absolutely no negative ramifications to either the story or the... *groan*... "hype." Funny how you can use the exact same reasoning ("this is a series about fighting") to justify saying, "Sexuality and gender identity have no place here because it's about fighting," while simultaneously declaring, "All the characters have to have this sexuality and this gender identity because it's about fighting."
The only white people in Dragon Ball are the Brief family.
Finally, "Brief" is not a family name just to throw a little Dragon Ball in this Dragon Ball discussion.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Sat May 11, 2019 11:49 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 11:28 pmYet you identify "cis" and "het" as being synonymous with man
No I don't, it was one half of an example.
Believe it or not, there are other people in the world besides you. Your experience is not the default.
Again a rather weird and random thing to say regarding the topic. I am not Asian, I do not have green skin, I do not have a third eye, I have a nose, I'm not an old pervert, I'm not a talking animal etc

My default is hardly in Dragon Ball at all. Yet I have no issue with that because I'm secure.
Therefore, a fighter can very easily belong to categories that are not those with absolutely no negative ramifications to either the story or the... *groan*... "hype."
I'm sure they could. I never said it was difficult, I said it was unnecessary.

It's only purpose would be to pander and be woke which would instead only bring the show a huge amount of backlash and criticism that it doesn't need. The show has actual problems that it needs to fix and forced inclusion isn't one of them

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Dr. Casey » Sun May 12, 2019 12:26 am

Something that I just remembered, but Toriyama has joked around with the premise that they seem too close to be friends, stating in an interview from 2010 (or at least it was posted about on Kanz around that time) that Tenshinhan's favorite food is jiaozi and Chaozu's favorite is tenshindon. :P
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun May 12, 2019 1:06 am

Bullza wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 9:54 pm Not sure what a "cishet" is, sounds like another made up word
Every word is a 'made up word'. Find me a word that exists in nature, independent of human beings.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Jord » Sun May 12, 2019 4:51 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 2:06 pm
SaiyamanMS wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 8:09 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 7:12 am I don't like the idea of shows doing completely empty political pandering for no reason other than a subset of fans demanding it. It's a pretty awkward spot
The idea that including LGBT people in media is political pandering is just as absurd as saying that having black people appear in media is political pandering.
When you drop in something that has no relevance or meaning to the show at all just to say you did it, it does come off as pandering. As a black guy myself, white guilt fueled tokenism is very annoying. I'd rather see a new black character or series rather then "Hey we made this guy black now. But not too black!"
That reminds me of Path to Power and how they turned Major Metallitron into a black dude for no reason.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ABED » Sun May 12, 2019 8:35 am

Corporations are not democracies in which the majority has any say in the production of said corporation. Corporations are undemocratic extensions of modern aristocracy. "No share, no say" is a perfect example of this fact as 84% of all stocks are owned by the wealthiest 10% of Americans. To say that they are in any way anything like your average individual creator is laughable, especially given the unrestrained power corporations exert over not only their private sector dealings but in the public sector, too.

The customer cannot profit using a corporation's registered intellectual property but they can still easily so with it as they please for their own satisfaction. This is how fan discussions and fan productions come into existence.

Like I said earlier in this post, Dragon Ball is whatever the fuck the production staff feel like making it at any given time. At one point Dragon Ball made rape jokes, most recently it's thrown in same-sex chemistry in Zamasu-Black and Caulifla-Kale. Clearly the range of content allowed is not so easily predictable.

'Pandering' is not an argument, it's not a gotcha word and it's not a big deal. "Oh, no, a show that panders to combat enthusiasts is also pandering to The Queers. The horror!!"
You do have a say, by voting with your wallet. The only real fundamental difference in a company owning a piece of IP vs. an individual creator comes down to the almost paradoxical nature of human beings. People are stronger as a group, but smarter as individuals. It's why making things by committee is a bad strategy.

I don't understand your second point. Of course you don't get a monetary profit, you don't own it. But being a fan of something means you've derived a benefit.

Sure pandering isn't a gotcha, but it does exist. Instead of making people feel more included and allow non-LGBT folks not see them as "the other", pandering is a cynical attempt at inclusion that will push people away instead of bringing people together. Execution matters.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ruler9871 » Sun May 12, 2019 12:30 pm

Dr. Casey wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 12:26 am Something that I just remembered, but Toriyama has joked around with the premise that they seem too close to be friends, stating in an interview from 2010 (or at least it was posted about on Kanz around that time) that Tenshinhan's favorite food is jiaozi and Chaozu's favorite is tenshindon. :P
LMAO I remember that interview but I can't find the link to it.
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Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 12, 2019 1:42 pm

Bullza wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 12:04 am
Where three decade old characters have shown no attraction to anyone...

To suddenly out of the blue (because it's 2019) add in lesbian or gay characters?

Yeah that's the prime example of what an agenda would be.
Dude, we had gay/lesbian characters in pop media for years and no one really called it an agenda until very recently. People have been living under a rock with pop culture until 2010s. Here are some movies and other pop culture stuff to refresh your memory that came out long before 2019.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

If you think that having people of color or women is also agenda as well. I got even a bigger list for you buddy.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Sun May 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 1:42 pm Dude, we had gay/lesbian characters in pop media for years and no one really called it an agenda until very recently.
Movies like Philadelphia and Boys Don't Cry completely revolve around that topic though. Dragon Ball never has nor put any real emphasis on relationships at all.

In fact I've just been reminded of another perfect example.

Marvel Comics. Been going for almost 60 years, there ain't much more secure than Marvel.

A couple years ago they actually went the "Diverse and Inclusive" PC route. Thor became Female Thor, Iron Man became the black female Iron Man, Hulk became Asian Hulk, Ms Marvel became Muslim Ms Marvel amongst other things.

Yay for diversity right? No. The sales went down the shitter. Even the Marvel Vice President blamed it on their attempts to be diverse.

“I don’t know that that’s really true, but that’s what we saw in sales. We saw the sales of any character that was diverse, any character that was new, our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel character, people were turning their nose up against.

And soon enough they went and relaunched the entire comic series and put everything back to how it was and how people liked it and sales increased. That is what happens when you try to be a pander to people, it backfires every time because they end up losing existing fans in far larger numbers.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun May 12, 2019 2:16 pm

Comic books are one of the least secure markets out there. You might want to find a better example.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by MCDaveG » Sun May 12, 2019 2:35 pm

They are like younger and older brother, without being related.
Puar and Yamcha are simmilar, tough Puar is more like a pet.
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