Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Jord » Tue May 14, 2019 6:16 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:03 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:43 pm
Bullza wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:28 pm


Oh it was definitely forced in alright, they threw in all their diverse eggs into one basket at once.

There's nothing wrong with diversity but a lot wrong with pandering. Regardless of personal opinions, from a business perspective, the whole thing was a failure for Marvel that they had to quickly rectify.

If a Marvel Executive has to come out and blame a huge sales slump because of the focus they put on being diverse then that shows what the problem is.

And it's not just limited to diversity. Like the other example I gave about Mortal Kombat, another long established series where for the newest game they covered up the women and it was met with overwhelming backlash from long time fans and they've bombed the reviews.

People hate things like that. So if Dragon Ball, what is and has been hugely well loved for decades now, does this same kind of unnecessary pandering to be PC, then they will lose people for sure. If it can happen to Marvel, Mortal Kombat, Supergirl, Battlefield etc then it can happen to Dragon Ball.
Dragonball isn't a Western franchise so its never gonna pander to the PC/SJW crowd. No Japanese franchise ever does.
PreCure, Pocket Monster and Dragon Ball Super all say hello with their massive queer coding.
Do tell. How do Super and Pokemon massively "queer code"?

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am

At best Pokemon can be accused of queer coding with James. But cross dressing for the sake of comedy is a trope as old as time. I doubt Nintendo/whoever is trying to make a statement on his sexuality.

No clue about Super. Some fans want Goku and Vegeta to fuck but I don’t think the show is baiting that fandom like Smallville and Xena did.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by MCDaveG » Tue May 14, 2019 8:59 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am
At best Pokemon can be accused of queer coding with James. But cross dressing for the sake of comedy is a trope as old as time. I doubt Nintendo/whoever is trying to make a statement on his sexuality.

No clue about Super. Some fans want Goku and Vegeta to fuck but I don’t think the show is baiting that fandom like Smallville and Xena did.
Noooooo, I don't wanna see what Vegeta and Goku do alone in the mountains or in Room of Spirit and Time inbetween sparring! :cry: :cry: :cry:

Some stories should be left untold :lol:
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ABED » Tue May 14, 2019 2:15 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am
At best Pokemon can be accused of queer coding with James. But cross dressing for the sake of comedy is a trope as old as time. I doubt Nintendo/whoever is trying to make a statement on his sexuality.

No clue about Super. Some fans want Goku and Vegeta to fuck but I don’t think the show is baiting that fandom like Smallville and Xena did.
When did Smallville bait fans?
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ruler9871 » Tue May 14, 2019 3:55 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:03 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:43 pm
Bullza wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:28 pm


Oh it was definitely forced in alright, they threw in all their diverse eggs into one basket at once.

There's nothing wrong with diversity but a lot wrong with pandering. Regardless of personal opinions, from a business perspective, the whole thing was a failure for Marvel that they had to quickly rectify.

If a Marvel Executive has to come out and blame a huge sales slump because of the focus they put on being diverse then that shows what the problem is.

And it's not just limited to diversity. Like the other example I gave about Mortal Kombat, another long established series where for the newest game they covered up the women and it was met with overwhelming backlash from long time fans and they've bombed the reviews.

People hate things like that. So if Dragon Ball, what is and has been hugely well loved for decades now, does this same kind of unnecessary pandering to be PC, then they will lose people for sure. If it can happen to Marvel, Mortal Kombat, Supergirl, Battlefield etc then it can happen to Dragon Ball.
Dragonball isn't a Western franchise so its never gonna pander to the PC/SJW crowd. No Japanese franchise ever does.
PreCure, Pocket Monster and Dragon Ball Super all say hello with their massive queer coding.
Massive queer coding? That sound like you are just reading into things.

Also, you are forgetting that fact that LGBT characters have been featured in mainstream anime/manga since the 70s and that LGBT topics and media have nothing to do with politics in Japan. In fact, SJWs and the beliefs associated with them don't even exist in Japan in the 1st place. None of those 3 series you listed have any political/SJW baiting content or message. Westerners need to stop projecting their politics into everything.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue May 14, 2019 8:11 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:55 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:03 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:43 pm


Dragonball isn't a Western franchise so its never gonna pander to the PC/SJW crowd. No Japanese franchise ever does.
PreCure, Pocket Monster and Dragon Ball Super all say hello with their massive queer coding.
Massive queer coding? That sound like you are just reading into things.

Also, you are forgetting that fact that LGBT characters have been featured in mainstream anime/manga since the 70s and that LGBT topics and media have nothing to do with politics in Japan. In fact, SJWs and the beliefs associated with them don't even exist in Japan in the 1st place. None of those 3 series you listed have any political/SJW baiting content or message. Westerners need to stop projecting their politics into everything.
LGBTQIA+ folks are fighting for their rights everyday in Japan.

The last two PreCure have heavily featured same-sex relationships taken as far as the production committee will allow the staff. Akira (transmasc) & Yukari, Emiru and Ruru, and Masato & Henri, with Henri being coded as non-binary or potentially transfemme. This show is the fuckin' queerest thing ever and it fuckin' rules as h*ck!

Pocket Monster has had numerous moments of Kojirou dressing in traditionally 'women's' clothing as well as a solidly Gay As Fuck scene between Suiren and Mao.

Then, of course, Zamasu and Black and Kale and Caulifla for Dragon Ball Super. I'm not going to bother going into depth there.

How about accusing others of grasping for straws you ask yourself why you're so invested in being 'right' in a conversation about queer folks?
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue May 14, 2019 9:17 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:11 pm


The last two PreCure have heavily featured same-sex relationships taken as far as the production committee will allow the staff.
I don’t watch PreCure but I just want to say LGBTQA people merely existing in a kids anime doesn’t mean it’s delivering a pro-gay message.

Sailor Moon had gay characters and aside from the lesbian sailor soldiers their gay characters were problematic af to be mild.

Japan didn’t have the same weirdo hang ups with acknowledging gays exist like America but it doesn’t mean their views or shows on super progressive.

Again I don’t watch Precure.
Pocket Monster has had numerous moments of Kojirou dressing in traditionally 'women's' clothing as well as a solidly Gay As Fuck scene between Suiren and Mao.
James/Kojirou cross dressing was never meant to be a statement on queer characters or rejecting gender norms. The show just thought it was funny. I remember they had Jessie cross dress as a male as a few times.

And I definitely remember that he had a crush on the ghost girl in that festival episode.

I don’t think Pokemon gave it any more thought than “ha this girly man is dressing like a woman isn’t that funny?”
Then, of course, Zamasu and Black and Kale and Caulifla for Dragon Ball Super. I'm not going to bother going into depth there.
Again the mere existence of gay or gay coded characters isn’t necessarily an affirmation of being pro-gay. General Blue and that Mr.Slave type character at the end of Z say hi.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue May 14, 2019 10:23 pm

I actually think there's more evidence for Whis being gay than any version of Zamasu, Kale, or Caulifla.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Wed May 15, 2019 2:17 am

Last year's Precure series composer(head writer) and the series directors took all those aspects seriously and presented it in the most sincere way possible which is way better than any Western show I have ever seen.

Precure always had this going for it since its inception. The father of the franchise, Washio who started it and one of his reasons for doing it was to promote self empowerment among girls and not rely on boys. Sure, its not a unique thing or even the first time anyone has done it, but its nice to know what the creators had in mind while creating it. The last season just decided to go all out and it was fitting cause it was Precure's 15th anniversary. Its not just the show being progressive, but the head writer is genuinely an active person on social media talking about this stuff regularly on twitter. Given its largely positive reception in Japan and discussions around those aspects specifically(Henri's whole character is the biggest example), I don't think there should be any doubts even remotely what message it was trying to convey.

As for this year, the producer just literally said her goal is to draw attention to diversity and present it as a normal thing so that kids understand it as such as well. Lol. And, the 14th episode does so brilliantly. Again, no room for any doubt at all.

Its also not a Precure exclusive thing. Kids shows like Doremi in the past did it well and many more in the past as well as in the present take these aspects seriously. So, the whole PC/sjw/feminism/diversity is a western concept exclusive to Western media is bullcrap. Also, using PC/sjw as a pejorative in 20 fucking 19 is hilarious.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Jord » Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:11 pm

Pocket Monster has had numerous moments of Kojirou dressing in traditionally 'women's' clothing as well as a solidly Gay As Fuck scene between Suiren and Mao.
Yeahhhh......you might be seeing things that aren't there. "Massive queering"...nope. As others have said, his and Jessies cross dressing is done for a quick gag, nothing more. James even falls in love with other women in certain episodes. And if this was so MASSIVE you would expect it to cross over to other media. The games don't feature any of this supposed "queering" and in the manga Jessie and James got married and ended up having a child together.

Also you might want to watch your language so readers of all ages can enjoy this forum.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed May 15, 2019 4:42 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:11 pm

Then, of course, Zamasu and Black and Kale and Caulifla for Dragon Ball Super. I'm not going to bother going into depth there.

How about accusing others of grasping for straws you ask yourself why you're so invested in being 'right' in a conversation about queer folks?
Hmmm, nope, that is like with Tien and Chiaotzu. You know, this show is mostly for kids in Japan and Tien and Chiaotzu are like younger and older brother, as they were trained by Crane Hermit since being kids and doesn't have any family or anyone else.

Kale and Caulifla is a classic Japanese gang dynamic, as Caulifla is blatantly portrayed as a leader of some kind of gang on planet Sadala and Kale is clearly her protege... maby they are orphans and she cares for her? Clearly, sister dynamic like with Tien and Chiaotzu.

Tough, with Black and Zamasu, this is interesting... he is huge narcissist and of course being in love with himself he probably projects it out.
That is nothing gay tough, as that would be insulting, because Zamasu clearly is ill in his mind, and his narcissism doesn't come simply from his own admiration, but from his complete devotion to execute his vile and sick plan, that is why they merge, because of the potential they will gain to achieve this plan.

Even if some people see things in plots like these and interpret them their way, there is no evidence suggesting that.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Dr. Casey » Wed May 15, 2019 5:24 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:17 pm
Sailor Moon had gay characters and aside from the lesbian sailor soldiers their gay characters were problematic af to be mild.
Yeah, though Sailor Moon is pretty old by this point, at least as far as social issues regarding gay rights and tolerance and such is concerned. The anime started close to 30 years ago. Even the US, which is relatively liberal on the issue compared to Japan (not that I'll think we've made progress enough until LGBT people feel totally safe and secure, and confident that their families won't reject or abandon them, to the point where there's no need to hide in the closet at all), was a lot uglier during the 90s.

Japan's pretty odd and hard to read sometimes when it comes to LGBT stuff. Anime is a mixture of "ewww gay people" jokes (which the Sailor Moon anime included its fair share of, even though that jarringly clashed with Naoko's own views; a product of anime teams being composed of a variety of writers most of the time), same-sex relationships that are portrayed straightforwardly and as though they're nothing special, and yaoi and yuri couples that are fetishized (ie 'lesbians are hot' and 'guy-on-guy is hot'). The third category's become rampant in anime during the 2000s and 2010s. Some people take offense to it, but eh, I've never minded. Positive attention is positive attention no matter what form it takes, and contributes to normalization. I'd take people thinking that same-sex relationships are hot over thinking they're icky and morally wrong. *shrug*
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed May 15, 2019 8:28 am

Jord wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 am
Yeahhhh......you might be seeing things that aren't there. "Massive queering"...nope. As others have said, his and Jessies cross dressing is done for a quick gag, nothing more. James even falls in love with other women in certain episodes. And if this was so MASSIVE you would expect it to cross over to other media. The games don't feature any of this supposed "queering" and in the manga Jessie and James got married and ended up having a child together.
You can like any of the genders and still be Queer As Fuck™.

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Jord wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 am
Also you might want to watch your language so readers of all ages can enjoy this forum.
You want a forum for a franchise with attempted child rape, murder and gore galore to be all-ages-friendly? Come on, sweetie, that's almost as nuts as thinking 'fuck' is an offensive word. Like, if you want to be offended by something be offended by all the bending-over-backwards going on here to call Japan some conservative paradise devoid of LGBTQIA+ battles.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed May 15, 2019 9:42 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:28 am
You want a forum for a franchise with attempted child rape
Uh, remind me again when this happened? Are you talking about the filler with General Blue?
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Jord » Wed May 15, 2019 9:49 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:28 am
Jord wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 am
Yeahhhh......you might be seeing things that aren't there. "Massive queering"...nope. As others have said, his and Jessies cross dressing is done for a quick gag, nothing more. James even falls in love with other women in certain episodes. And if this was so MASSIVE you would expect it to cross over to other media. The games don't feature any of this supposed "queering" and in the manga Jessie and James got married and ended up having a child together.
You can like any of the genders and still be Queer As Fuck™.
Like I said. You're seeing things that aren't there. No matter what witty cartoons you may post, there is no evidence for the claims you're making while there is more than enough evidence for the opposite. What's next, a theory that Vegeta may be gay?
You want a forum for a franchise with attempted child rape, murder and gore galore to be all-ages-friendly? Come on, sweetie, that's almost as nuts as thinking 'fuck' is an offensive word. Like, if you want to be offended by something be offended by all the bending-over-backwards going on here to call Japan some conservative paradise devoid of LGBTQIA+ battles.
It's just something called polite language. It's not that I'm offended, it's just a matter of manners. Plus I don't "want" to be offended, let alone let someone else dictate on what I need to be offended by.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ABED » Wed May 15, 2019 9:51 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:42 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:28 am
You want a forum for a franchise with attempted child rape
Uh, remind me again when this happened? Are you talking about the filler with General Blue?
I think he's referring to the earlier scene when Bulma is alone on an island and two RRA goons try to assualt her.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by SaiyamanMS » Wed May 15, 2019 10:25 am

ABED wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:51 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:42 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:28 am
You want a forum for a franchise with attempted child rape
Uh, remind me again when this happened? Are you talking about the filler with General Blue?
I think he's referring to the earlier scene when Bulma is alone on an island and two RRA goons try to assualt her.
It’s she, her name is Julie. I know it can sometimes be hard to know someone’s gender on the internet, but she clearly has her name in her username and her pronouns in her signature. Either you’re not paying attention or deliberately being a dick.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed May 15, 2019 10:30 am

SaiyamanMS wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:25 am
ABED wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:51 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:42 am


Uh, remind me again when this happened? Are you talking about the filler with General Blue?
I think he's referring to the earlier scene when Bulma is alone on an island and two RRA goons try to assualt her.
It’s she, her name is Julie. I know it can sometimes be hard to know someone’s gender on the internet, but she clearly has her name in her username and her pronouns in her signature. Either you’re not paying attention or deliberately being a dick.
I forgot about that scene... for good reason probably.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ruler9871 » Wed May 15, 2019 12:47 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:11 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:55 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:03 pm


PreCure, Pocket Monster and Dragon Ball Super all say hello with their massive queer coding.
Massive queer coding? That sound like you are just reading into things.

Also, you are forgetting that fact that LGBT characters have been featured in mainstream anime/manga since the 70s and that LGBT topics and media have nothing to do with politics in Japan. In fact, SJWs and the beliefs associated with them don't even exist in Japan in the 1st place. None of those 3 series you listed have any political/SJW baiting content or message. Westerners need to stop projecting their politics into everything.
LGBTQIA+ folks are fighting for their rights everyday in Japan.

The last two PreCure have heavily featured same-sex relationships taken as far as the production committee will allow the staff. Akira (transmasc) & Yukari, Emiru and Ruru, and Masato & Henri, with Henri being coded as non-binary or potentially transfemme. This show is the fuckin' queerest thing ever and it fuckin' rules as h*ck!

Pocket Monster has had numerous moments of Kojirou dressing in traditionally 'women's' clothing as well as a solidly Gay As Fuck scene between Suiren and Mao.

Then, of course, Zamasu and Black and Kale and Caulifla for Dragon Ball Super. I'm not going to bother going into depth there.

How about accusing others of grasping for straws you ask yourself why you're so invested in being 'right' in a conversation about queer folks?
1. "LGBTQIA+ folks are fighting for their rights everyday in Japan. "

But that doesn't mean anime/manga with gay characters are politically motivated. Its a non-sequitur fallacy. Anime & manga as a whole are an non-political medium.

2. Having gay characters in it doesn't make a work a fiction pro-gay (nor does it even make a statement about them). That's just as stupid as saying all those old racist films preach racial equality because they have non-white characters in them :roll: . A lot of homophobic writers put gay characters in their fiction too, that doesn't make it pro-gay.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ruler9871 » Wed May 15, 2019 12:50 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:17 pm

Sailor Moon had gay characters and aside from the lesbian sailor soldiers their gay characters were problematic af to be mild.
That series doesn't write its LGBT characters any differently from its straight ones. There's heroes and villains of both orientations in it, so Naoko Takeuchi wasn't really trying to make a statement about it.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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