Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu May 09, 2019 9:01 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 8:38 pmNobody cares who Tien is or isn't attracted to. What people would actually want is for him to be powered up so he could serve a purpose towards the show.
Allow me to remind you of the statement you made that kicked off the various debates you are having in this thread:
Bullza wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:10 pmIt's a kids cartoon and we're talking about exposure for... nevermind.
What are people supposed to gather from that other than "Bullza doesn't think LGBT people should be represented in children's media"? This is the only thing people are arguing you on. I guarantee you if your original statement was something to the effect of "Nobody cares about romance in this series", you wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. You don't get to be the one who says...
Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 8:38 pmEither way it's not important, we're going off track.
...when you were the one who got us off topic in the first place by making an extremely problematic statement, especially when, in the exact same post, you continue to make problematic statements:
Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 8:38 pmTien doesn't need to be given any kind of bizarre sexual preference.
What is "bizzare" about having a sexual preference that isn't heterosexual? And don't pretend that's not what you were talking about, because you differentiate the "bizzare" preference from the "normal" one in the next sentence:
Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 8:38 pmHe doesn't need to be given any kind of sexual preference in the first place.
And then of course there's this:
Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 8:38 pmThere's only two genders, male and female.
Which is extremely ignorant of how gender works.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 09, 2019 9:09 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 8:38 pm Again no idea what you're talking about. You could be throwing random words at me for all I know. What the hell is a non binary person? Isn't binary supposed to have something to do with math?

The other guy said it's an attraction regardless of gender. There's only two genders, male and female and bisexuals are attracted to both....

Either way it's not important, we're going off track.

Tien doesn't need to be given any kind of bizarre sexual preference. He doesn't need to be given any kind of sexual preference in the first place. Dragon Ball isn't some teen social drama. It's an action cartoon where people batter each other and it's worked wonders for it for 30+ years.

Nobody cares who Tien is or isn't attracted to. What people would actually want is for him to be powered up so he could serve a purpose towards the show.
Non-binary people do not identify as either of the two 'mainstream' genders. A non-binary person falls into a third gender position, like the Fa'afafine or the Hijra. I have a non-binary co-worker, for example. They use them/them/their's for their pronouns, just as I use she/her/her's for my pronouns. Our world has so many new things to learn every single day.

'Bizarre sexual preference' is so incredibly offensive to the LGBTQIA+ community. We are normal, everyday contributing members of society just as much as cishet folks. Calling us 'bizarre' dehumanizes us and leads to our persecution, raping and murder.

I understand that you deeply care about who Tenshinhan is attracted to and appreciate your willingness to contribute to this thread but it is simply not acceptable to disparage fellow users, fellow members of the labor force and fellow members of the human race in general. Please grow as a human being. The world is vast and our understanding of it ever-evolving.
Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:44 pm
I know the LGBT part but nowadays more and more things get tacked on to the end of it that it's become almost a parody.
Including queer, intersex and asexual folk and more into the short-hand acronym forces folks like yourself to ask questions and learn. It's a good thing.
Because it serves absolutely no purpose. Thankfully this isn't that kind of series and any relationships that are formed are usually only done so for the purpose of creating a new character in the form of a child like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan etc for story purposes.
It serves the purpose of educating the uneducated and normalizing us, which helps save lives. What do you have against doing a small, simple thing?
ABED wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:22 pm Is that really what's putting people off Supergirl?
Yes it is in spades. The show has become so obsessed with becoming "woke" (don't really know what that means either) and pandering to SJW's that it's putting people off from watching the show because it's all they are focused on now.

Again thankfully, that is something that anime in general doesn't do and hopefully never will because it will do it more harm than good.

This show has been popular for decades, they've got it good and people are happy enough with it. The last thing they need to do is start shoehorning in a pansexual Tien, a asexual Jiren and a intersex Hit (again what even are these things?) into a kids cartoon about fighting aliens because it will kill the show in no time flat
How is it pandering to SJWs and how does that make for a poor product? The character of Nia--a transgender woman such as myself--is the most positive display of a character like me I have ever seen in American media--media from the land from which I hail. I am upset that they made Nia an extraterrestrial (that reads as being apologetic to me) but I am otherwise so happy to see an actress and a character that shows us girls that we can pass and we can present the level of femininity we so often are desperate to attain.

Japanese media like animation are very queer. Whether in exploring the attraction to fictional characters that we 3D folk experience or displaying the types of queer love between characters that draw us to them. Caulifla and Kale are a wonderful queer couple, for example. Yuuri on Ice had a queer romance between it's two main characters, too. It's also easy to read into Zamasu and Gokuu Black as a queer couple.

Like, buddy, do you not realize that you're coming off as a bigot?
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu May 09, 2019 9:26 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:09 pmIt's also easy to read into Zamasu and Gokuu Black as a queer couple.
Technically they're the same person, so wouldn't that be masturbation?
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Thu May 09, 2019 9:27 pm

PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:01 pmI guarantee you if your original statement was something to the effect of "Nobody cares about romance in this series", you wouldn't be having this debate in the first place.
Most of what you said was pretty irrelevant to the larger topic at hand so we'll leave that and just focus on this bit.

I wouldn't have said that "quote" because that doesn't make sense. Toriyama cared enough about the romance portion of the series to include it afterall. It's not absent from the series. If it wasn't for it then certain key characters wouldn't exist or might go on to exist.

But it's kept minimal because he's not good at it. As I mentioned the Yamcha/Bulma was a complete waste of time and a dead end. The only relationships that have any value are the ones where it ends in a kid being born.

So what purpose is there in anything else? The show purely revolves around fighting with some humour. It's not a Shojo manga. Who is attracted to who is of no importance here at all.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 09, 2019 9:35 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:26 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:09 pmIt's also easy to read into Zamasu and Gokuu Black as a queer couple.
Technically they're the same person, so wouldn't that be masturbation?
It'd be selfcest at best but it is important to keep in mind that their differing experiences do color them different people after a while. Either way, let's get them boys fuckin'!
Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:27 pm
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:01 pmI guarantee you if your original statement was something to the effect of "Nobody cares about romance in this series", you wouldn't be having this debate in the first place.
Most of what you said was pretty irrelevant to the larger topic at hand so we'll leave that and just focus on this bit.

I wouldn't have said that "quote" because that doesn't make sense. Toriyama cared enough about the romance portion of the series to include it afterall. It's not absent from the series. If it wasn't for it then certain key characters wouldn't exist or might go on to exist.

But it's kept minimal because he's not good at it. As I mentioned the Yamcha/Bulma was a complete waste of time and a dead end. The only relationships that have any value are the ones where it ends in a kid being born.

So what purpose is there in anything else? The show purely revolves around fighting with some humour. It's not a Shojo manga. Who is attracted to who is of no importance here at all.
It's important to you and us, apparently. Unless you believe there is only one proper way to be a fan.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu May 09, 2019 9:41 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:27 pm
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:01 pmI guarantee you if your original statement was something to the effect of "Nobody cares about romance in this series", you wouldn't be having this debate in the first place.
Most of what you said was pretty irrelevant to the larger topic at hand so we'll leave that and just focus on this bit.
sigh.

Again. You don't get to play this "let's stay on topic" game when you were the one who went off topic in the first place, and in a manner that you had to have known would illicit a strong response from some people. You don't get to insinuate that LGBT representation in children's media is bad and not expect to have upset some people.

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:27 pmI wouldn't have said that "quote" because that doesn't make sense. Toriyama cared enough about the romance portion of the series to include it afterall. It's not absent from the series. If it wasn't for it then certain key characters wouldn't exist or might go on to exist.

But it's kept minimal because he's not good at it. As I mentioned the Yamcha/Bulma was a complete waste of time and a dead end. The only relationships that have any value are the ones where it ends in a kid being born.

So what purpose is there in anything else? The show purely revolves around fighting with some humour. It's not a Shojo manga. Who is attracted to who is of no importance here at all.
Romantic relationships, of any sexuality, can be in anime without it being a Shojo, and can be in any fiction without it being under the genre of romance. And yeah, I'll concede that by his own admission Toriyama isn't terribly good at writing romance. Here's the problem. Toriyama is not even close to the only writer of the series at this point. In fact, he doesn't even directly write the main storyline anymore outside of movies, he just gives a vague outline. That means that things such as plot specifics, characterization, and yes, romance, are left up to the writers at Toei for the anime and Toyotaro for the manga.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Thu May 09, 2019 10:03 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:09 pmNon-binary people do not identify as either of the two 'mainstream' genders. A non-binary person falls into a third gender position, like the Fa'afafine or the Hijra.
Right...the Hijra...
'Bizarre sexual preference' is so incredibly offensive to the LGBTQIA+ community.
Hold up there, you can't complain at me for saying it's a bizarre sexual preference and then and go say the above. So according to what you've told me...there's such a thing as a pansexual that is attracted to males and females...but also non binary people...who are people that don't identify...as a male or female but something else?

Is that right?

That's very bizarre, what are you on about? Never in my life have I known anyone who doesn't identify themselves as male or female. It's the only thing you are ever taught throughout your entire education. Fa'afafine or the Hijra? I've never even heard the word nevermind someone identify as it.

I know what a hermaphrodite is. Is it like that? No, actually it really doesn't matter.
It serves the purpose of educating the uneducated and normalizing us, which helps save lives.
We're talking about Dragon Ball here. It's just a kids cartoon where all people are bothered with are the fighting, transformations and power levels. It's not meant to be educating or normalizing anything and certainly not "saving peoples lives".

This is a series that became a worldwide phenomenon with only like four female characters. The show is proportionally more popular with black people than white people and there's no black characters even in the show.

Yet black people clearly don't care and they love it anyway. Black people aren't dying because there's no black characters in Dragon Ball.
Caulifla and Kale are a wonderful queer couple, for example.
There's nothing queer about those characters. They're no more queer than Gohan and Piccolo.
Yuuri on Ice had a queer romance between it's two main characters, too.
That's an entirely different show man. There's also a ton of romance and drama anime out there that revolve around all this stuff both with straight and gay characters. Dragon Ball has never been that series, it doesn't even give much of a shit about the straight relationships nevermind any other kind.
It's also easy to read into Zamasu and Gokuu Black as a queer couple.
No it isn't...you're looking for something that's not there. It's the exact same character.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Thu May 09, 2019 10:18 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:35 pmIt's important to you and us, apparently.
No it isn't important to me. I've never given Tien's sexual attraction any thought. I'd rather they never bring any attention to it either.

It's important to you that it's a thing. I count that as pandering and that is what's important to me, that Dragon Ball doesn't become something that it isn't and goes downhill for it.
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:41 pmYou don't get to insinuate that LGBT representation in children's media is bad and not expect to have upset some people.
I never said that. I never said that at all.
Romantic relationships, of any sexuality, can be in anime without it being a Shojo, and can be in any fiction without it being under the genre of romance.
Oh I'm aware. As a reader of a lot of Shonen titles, I know that a good portion of the criticism that gets thrown their way is usually because of the relationships or the "shipping". One guy burned his entire collection of Bleach to ashes because Ichigo didn't end up with Tikka.

One particular reason why Dragon Ball has always been better than most of these other Shonen titles is because they don't go that route and it's always been better off because of it.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 10:18 pm
Romantic relationships, of any sexuality, can be in anime without it being a Shojo, and can be in any fiction without it being under the genre of romance.
Oh I'm aware. As a reader of a lot of Shonen titles, I know that a good portion of the criticism that gets thrown their way is usually because of the relationships or the "shipping". One guy burned his entire collection of Bleach to ashes because Ichigo didn't end up with Tikka.

One particular reason why Dragon Ball has always been better than most of these other Shonen titles is because they don't go that route and it's always been better off because of it.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, I guess.
Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 10:18 pm
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:41 pmYou don't get to insinuate that LGBT representation in children's media is bad and not expect to have upset some people.
I never said that. I never said that at all.
Then what, do tell, did this statement mean?:
Bullza wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:10 pmIt's a kids cartoon and we're talking about exposure for... nevermind.
"we're talking about exposure for..." For what exactly? And why are you bringing up the "exposure" as you put it of whatever it is you're talking about, in relation to it being in a "kid's cartoon", if not to say that it's a negative for it to be in said kid's cartoon? Because unless everything I know about the English language and implying thing is wrong, I'm pretty sure you were saying it was a negative.
Last edited by PremiumSalt on Thu May 09, 2019 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu May 09, 2019 10:28 pm

Who the hell is Tikka!? There is NO character like that in Bleach!!
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by ruler9871 » Thu May 09, 2019 10:29 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:26 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 9:09 pmIt's also easy to read into Zamasu and Gokuu Black as a queer couple.
Technically they're the same person, so wouldn't that be masturbation?
It shows how narcissistic Zamasu really is lol.
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Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Thu May 09, 2019 10:48 pm

PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 pmBecause unless everything I know about the English language and implying thing is wrong, I'm pretty sure you were saying it was a negative.
Yeah it is a negative. I've been explaining why all these past several posts haven't I? Using a kids cartoon, specifically one revolving around fighting aliens as means to give exposure to different sexualities?...what?

That's a terrible idea that would cause people to turn on it for trying to be something that it isn't.

A somewhat similar thing is happening right now with Mortal Kombat. They tried to give it the "PC" approach to be more "SJW" friendly by covering up the female characters and all it did was backfire on them and long time Mortal Kombat fans are up in arms over it because that's not what Mortal Kombat is and has been. Mortal Kombat 11 has a paltry 2.8 user score on Metacritic at the moment.

That's what happens when you try to pander and a series tries to be something that they aren't.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 10:28 pm Who the hell is Tikka!? There is NO character like that in Bleach!!
Oh that should be Rukia.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 09, 2019 10:57 pm

On mobile so I'll be terse: censoring nudity and sexuality is wrong. It's possible to include horny content and queer-inclusion together. We girls get horny, too.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu May 09, 2019 11:07 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 10:48 pm
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 10:27 pmBecause unless everything I know about the English language and implying thing is wrong, I'm pretty sure you were saying it was a negative.
Yeah it is a negative. I've been explaining why all these past several posts haven't I? Using a kids cartoon, specifically one revolving around fighting aliens as means to give exposure to different sexualities?...what?
Uh. Okay then. So what about what you just said doesn't translate to "LGBT representation in children's media is bad" exactly?
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Bullza » Thu May 09, 2019 11:18 pm

PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:07 pmUh. Okay then. So what about what you just said doesn't translate to "LGBT representation in children's media is bad" exactly?
Not really getting what you're asking there. I didn't say LGBT representation in children's media is bad. I already mentioned that the show had that one Village People character in it already.

I said it was bad for Dragon Ball to pander by giving Tien a bizarre sexual preference for the sake of exposure as it's not that kind of show at all and a similar mindset has turned people against other series such as Supergirl and Mortal Kombat.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu May 09, 2019 11:21 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:18 pm
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:07 pmUh. Okay then. So what about what you just said doesn't translate to "LGBT representation in children's media is bad" exactly?
Not really getting what you're asking there. I didn't say LGBT representation in children's media is bad. I already mentioned that the show had that one Village People character in it already.

I said it was bad for Dragon Ball to pander by giving Tien a bizarre sexual preference for the sake of exposure as it's not that kind of show at all and a similar mindset has turned people against other series such as Supergirl and Mortal Kombat.
Whatever. I'm done arguing this. What you said came across as extremely bigoted, and judging by some of the other responses you've gotten I'm not the only one that feels that way.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 09, 2019 11:28 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:18 pm
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:07 pmUh. Okay then. So what about what you just said doesn't translate to "LGBT representation in children's media is bad" exactly?
Not really getting what you're asking there. I didn't say LGBT representation in children's media is bad. I already mentioned that the show had that one Village People character in it already.

I said it was bad for Dragon Ball to pander by giving Tien a bizarre sexual preference for the sake of exposure as it's not that kind of show at all and a similar mindset has turned people against other series such as Supergirl and Mortal Kombat.
"It's bad for Dragon Ball to casually depict Tenshinhan as LGBTQIA+ for funsies and education as it is literally only possible for Dragon Ball to pander to loves of violence, poop jokes and sci-fi because all of the fans of Dragon Ball will turned from the series because Tenshinhan gets a little cum in his third eye every now and then."

Baby. Sugar. Honey. Please, find a less stupid hill to die on, one preferably not already covered in the bodily fluids of all the horny fan girls who have been getting off to Gokuu × Vegeta, Gohan × Future Trunks, Piccolo × Vegeta, Gohan × Picolo, Present Trunks × Goten, Zamasu × Gokuu Black and Caulifla × Kale for years.
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Cursed Lemon
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Thu May 09, 2019 11:30 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 11:18 pm
I said it was bad for Dragon Ball to pander by giving Tien a bizarre sexual preference for the sake of exposure as it's not that kind of show at all and a similar mindset has turned people against other series such as Supergirl and Mortal Kombat.
I love this line of logic so much.

"Having LGBT people in my line of sight = them pushing an agenda!"

Just come out with it, dude.
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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by SaiyamanMS » Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 pm

I’m a lesbian, I’m very out as a lesbian. Today my fiancée and I went to get a quote for insurance and were asked by the saleswoman if we were sisters (we don’t even look remotely alike), upon clarifying that we were a couple, she insisted on referring to us as “friends”. This is the kind of bullshit LGBT+ people have to deal with on a constant basis.

I’m not going to say that Tenshinhan and Chaozu are a couple as there’s insufficient evidence, but the only arguments I’m seeing for why they definitely aren’t in a relationship and are “100% just friends” seem to be rooted in homophobia.

LGBT+ people need more mainstream representation in order to show that we’re just normal people, we do exist and that we’re every bit a regular part of society as cishet people. (That’s cisgender and heterosexual, in case you don’t understand the word “cishet”.) Ignoring the fact we exist or trying to push your own narrative on who we are is a blatant attempt at erasure and relegating us to being second class citizens.

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Re: Are Tien and Chiaotzu a romantic couple?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri May 10, 2019 12:01 am

To get back onto the topic of the thread, I don't believe that they are a couple, but I wouldn't say it's outside of the realm of possibility.
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