It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:53 pm

Problem 1: It would cost more in the millions than the hundred thousands to remaster and scan it all. We're talking 444 episodes of TV here (GT never had film distributed around, so the full 508-long run wouldn't be possible), plus two double-length specials.

Problem 2: You would have to track down and purchase 16mm film prints of every episode, which by itself would probably cost several million at least, and you'd almost certainly run into the problem of missing some episodes, or one getting damaged or lost in transit.
Remember, there were only a handful of TV prints sent out by Toei, and that's what you get when you buy an episode of Dragon Ball on film (assuming you don't get a dupe), so these are pretty much one-of-a-kind items.

Problem 3: Officials could crack down on you at any moment. And knowing Toei and Funimation, they definitely would. Unlike a Star Wars type scenario where everyone watches it, everyone picks it up, etc., anime has an entrenched problem of piracy; do a pirate release like this, and the companies involved would try to shut you down hard.

Problem 4: Anyone who asks for the amount of money involved in something like this, I would call a scammer, and I would say no one should give that person a dime.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by gokaiblue » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:39 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:53 pm
Problem 1: It would cost more in the millions than the hundred thousands to remaster and scan it all. We're talking 444 episodes of TV here (GT never had film distributed around, so the full 508-long run wouldn't be possible), plus two double-length specials.

Problem 2: You would have to track down and purchase 16mm film prints of every episode, which by itself would probably cost several million at least, and you'd almost certainly run into the problem of missing some episodes, or one getting damaged or lost in transit.
Remember, there were only a handful of TV prints sent out by Toei, and that's what you get when you buy an episode of Dragon Ball on film (assuming you don't get a dupe), so these are pretty much one-of-a-kind items.

Problem 3: Officials could crack down on you at any moment. And knowing Toei and Funimation, they definitely would. Unlike a Star Wars type scenario where everyone watches it, everyone picks it up, etc., anime has an entrenched problem of piracy; do a pirate release like this, and the companies involved would try to shut you down hard.

Problem 4: Anyone who asks for the amount of money involved in something like this, I would call a scammer, and I would say no one should give that person a dime.
Problems 1 and 2 could be solved by simply using the Dragon Box as the masters, but even so, I agree that this could risk being taken down.
Looking for these rare items/information:

Any information or recordings pertaining to Dragon Ball Z's syndicated run on WAWB
Any information regarding the stations that carried the origin Dragon Ball in the USA
Dragon Box (any deals would be nice)
Shonen Jumps with Dragon Ball in them

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by KBABZ » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:43 am

gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:39 pm
Problems 1 and 2 could be solved by simply using the Dragon Box as the masters, but even so, I agree that this could risk being taken down.
I doubt that'd be an acceptable solution for AnimeMaakuo, he wants to make a great HD remaster of DBZ that's what we've been asking for since Blu-Rays were an option. So 4:3 crop, proper colour correction, keeping the grain, being in HD, and most certainly using the broadcast audio for the Japanese dialogue+music track. You can't get that with the Dragon Boxes because that release has its own inherent flaws.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:57 pm

gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:39 pm
Problems 1 and 2 could be solved by simply using the Dragon Box as the masters, but even so, I agree that this could risk being taken down.
Okay, then what we have is literally just the Dragon Boxes. It's not a fan remaster at that point, just a colour correction project -- which rarely get better results than "you tried..." despite the colour-corrector's insistence that their work is perfect.

You could try doing an upscale, but upscaling is effectively the same as when Funi put "REMASTERED IN HIGH DEFINITION" on their Orange Bricks; it's totally meaningless, and just lets you claim it's better than it is.

Remember: The Dragon Boxes are standard-def, already MPEG-2 encoded, and have tons of flaws burned into that standard-def video; poor (or no) white balancing, improper brightness/contrast adjustment (or possibly incorrect telecine calibration) that results in both dark and light crushing, the primitive motion-blur-based DNR resulting in distortion in dark areas, some episodes had some incorrect flags set at the encoding level causing them to be crap quality on the DVD, GT uses the incorrect OP footage for most of its run and what correct footage it does use is from the D2 tapes, resulting in poor quality in the OP footage...

The Dragon Boxes are an okay, serviceable, watchable, tolerable DVD release from 2003. They are put up on a pedestal because every other release has been a total garbagefire, but make no mistake, the Dragon Boxes are kinda crappy in 2019.

I tolerate them, I even enjoy them quite a bit, because it's the best release available. But it really sucks.

Using the Dragon Boxes as the base for some grand "Fan remaster" is just going to result in an Enigmo-style awful pile of crap with awful waifu upscaling that destroys all texture and detail of the original image, digital sharpening that creates awful halos and makes all the lineart and backgrounds ugly, and an artificial grain plate to give a faux-Level look on a superficial level to trick people giving a first glance into thinking your material is better than it is, when in actual fact, just watching the Dragon Boxes as-is would be a far better viewing option.
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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:21 pm

The Dragon Boxes are no different from the Star Wars trilogy 2006 re-release (which was based off the 1993 Laserdisc collection). Its the best release of the original version without edits or tinkering, but because everything else on the market has unnecessary changes its what the purists go for, but its long overdue for an upgrade.
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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by gokaiblue » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:58 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:57 pm
gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:39 pm
Problems 1 and 2 could be solved by simply using the Dragon Box as the masters, but even so, I agree that this could risk being taken down.
Okay, then what we have is literally just the Dragon Boxes. It's not a fan remaster at that point, just a colour correction project -- which rarely get better results than "you tried..." despite the colour-corrector's insistence that their work is perfect.

You could try doing an upscale, but upscaling is effectively the same as when Funi put "REMASTERED IN HIGH DEFINITION" on their Orange Bricks; it's totally meaningless, and just lets you claim it's better than it is.

Remember: The Dragon Boxes are standard-def, already MPEG-2 encoded, and have tons of flaws burned into that standard-def video; poor (or no) white balancing, improper brightness/contrast adjustment (or possibly incorrect telecine calibration) that results in both dark and light crushing, the primitive motion-blur-based DNR resulting in distortion in dark areas, some episodes had some incorrect flags set at the encoding level causing them to be crap quality on the DVD, GT uses the incorrect OP footage for most of its run and what correct footage it does use is from the D2 tapes, resulting in poor quality in the OP footage...

The Dragon Boxes are an okay, serviceable, watchable, tolerable DVD release from 2003. They are put up on a pedestal because every other release has been a total garbagefire, but make no mistake, the Dragon Boxes are kinda crappy in 2019.

I tolerate them, I even enjoy them quite a bit, because it's the best release available. But it really sucks.

Using the Dragon Boxes as the base for some grand "Fan remaster" is just going to result in an Enigmo-style awful pile of crap with awful waifu upscaling that destroys all texture and detail of the original image, digital sharpening that creates awful halos and makes all the lineart and backgrounds ugly, and an artificial grain plate to give a faux-Level look on a superficial level to trick people giving a first glance into thinking your material is better than it is, when in actual fact, just watching the Dragon Boxes as-is would be a far better viewing option.
I've seen some great results from color correcting the Dragon Boxes, so that mixed with the broadcast audio would be good enough for me. If people want to do any sort of digital sharpening, then that's their prerogative. What I would want from this project would be color correction, maybe some upscaling and deinterlacing, and the broadcast audio. That would be my perfect "remaster."
Looking for these rare items/information:

Any information or recordings pertaining to Dragon Ball Z's syndicated run on WAWB
Any information regarding the stations that carried the origin Dragon Ball in the USA
Dragon Box (any deals would be nice)
Shonen Jumps with Dragon Ball in them

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:19 am

gokaiblue wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:58 am
I've seen some great results from color correcting the Dragon Boxes, so that mixed with the broadcast audio would be good enough for me. If people want to do any sort of digital sharpening, then that's their prerogative. What I would want from this project would be color correction, maybe some upscaling and deinterlacing, and the broadcast audio. That would be my perfect "remaster."
You seem misinformed on various aspects of this, so if you'll indulge me for a moment, I'd like to explain why I think the efforts you describe would be a bad idea in this case...

Deinterlacing would usually be an incorrect proceedure for Dragon Ball. What would be needed would be an IVTC; deinterlacing should turn 30fps interlaced into 60fps progressive so that the 60 fields contained in the 30 frames of the interlaced picture in a second are properly rendered on a modern progressive display.
DVD is an interlaced 30fps format in NTSC regions like the USA and Japan, so 24fps film content like Dragon Ball has to be spread out across the 60 fields of a 30i picture, so you need an IVTC process to reverse that and get the original 24fps results out. (Though technically, it's not 60, 30, or 24 we're dealing with here, it's closer to 59.94, 29.97, and 23.976, but that's neither here nor there)

Upscaling gives no benefit that your TV or media player won't already give you (remember, standard-def content only has standard-def detail; upscaling can just spread the pixels of that standard-def image out over a larger number of pixels, sometimes in fancier ways than others. You can't just add HD detail to an SD image, the detail simply doesn't exist), and in fact upscaling would be an active detriment to a fan-remaster project, as using upscaling to pad the original picture out to a larger size will just unnecessarily inflate the filesize to at least 4x what it would need at standard-def if you want it to look as good as it did at standard-def, and that combined with any potential sharpening would accentuate all the flaws of the original DVD encode such as banding, macroblocking, etc.
And typically, when a fancy upscaling project is put into force, something such as "Waifu" is used, which is designed for digitally-animated stuff from the 2000s that simply don't have elements that can be re-scanned into HD, so if you plug an older film-based anime like Dragon Ball into it, it ends up destroying all the texture and detail in the image in much the same way as Funi's releases do, but because it's got the well-liked "Dragon Box" and "Fan remaster" labels on it, people eat it up anyway.

An upscaled Blu-ray release of a TV show might look a little better than the standard-def DVD release would look upscaled by your TV, but that's because the Blu-ray format allows for an insanely high bitrate; 50GB per disc will typically mean such a release will have close to 10GB per episode. But the improvement is tiny, and rarely worth the money such upscaled releases cost compared to their DVD counterpart. And such releases are based off of uncompressed/lossless source elements, and use professional workstations, filtering, etc., all of which gives such releases such a massive edge on fan efforts, and even this only gives the tiniest edge over your TV upscaling the DVDs...
Point is: An upscaled Blu-ray release could look a little better than the DVD. A little.
A fan effort will look the same or worse. Likely a little worse.

Sharpening is ridiculous, because like upscaling, it doesn't add any detail to the picture, it just gives a superficially-sharper look to the picture, while also introducing haloing, accentuating all the banding, macroblocking, etc., and unless you're combining it with some kind of DNR filter (though I think Waifu does some pretty strong DNR of its own anyway), it will pretty heavily accentuate the grain in some rather ugly ways.
Ultimately, the only way you'll get sharpening that looks any good on standard-def DVD video is if you apply it so lightly that it's barely even worth applying.
Toei's BD releases of their HD remasters of the movies rely very heavily on digital sharpening to mitigate the damage done by their overly-strong DNR filtering, and while the results are typically okay since that detail is there in the image, the sharpening just gives the already-HD image a somewhat cleaner look, it only really looks good when it's subtlely applied; the one or two movies where it's applied much more strongly (Z movie 5, for instance) looks butt-ugly.
But, Dragon Box is standard-def. There's no HD details to clean up. Putting a sharpening filter on it will just make it uglier.

Colour correction can be done rather well, but I've rarely seen a case where someone who's any good at it won't apply other filters that ruin it. DNR, waifu upscaling, sharpening, etc. etc.
A decent colour correction, and a solid broadcast audio sync would probably make for a rather good Dragon Box-based fan release, but talking about doing any kind of more complex "Fan remastering" will undoubtedly result in use of over-applied sharpening, DNR, upscaling, and maybe a grain plate to try to hide some of the ugly flaws of the DVD image that this has all uncovered.
And yet, the end result would still be inferior to what a decent HDTV would give you by just playing the Dragon Boxes back with a proper white balance and broadcast audio put on top.

And when we're talking about 508 episodes of TV, all of which would need several hours of work to get the colours right if you're doing much more than white balancing and some basic other adjustments, I doubt you'll find someone who'd be willing to put that much effort in without leaving their own further stamp on it, especially when the risk of Toei putting out their own HD master that would invalidate all this work is potentially right around the corner.

.

So... No, I disagree with you. I think you're wrong about all this, and I think any fan project that goes beyond just syncing up broadcast audio and running some basic colour correction is a fool's errand that's only given any support because a lot of people simply don't understand/know this nerdy crap of which I've just inflicted a mini TedTalk on you.
It's basically the same problem with Funi's crappy releases, but the target is people who know enough to know Funi's releases are crap, but don't quite know enough to know the dos and don'ts of fan projects.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by KBABZ » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:45 am

Welcome back to the forums, Kunzait!

Huh, I never knew that the deinterlacing issues were common. I TOTALLY thought that was just an issue with my Dragon Box; it totally halted my progress on the second pass of The First Chapters because I just COULDN'T figure out how to solve it!

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:54 am

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:45 am
Welcome back to the forums, Kunzait!
:lol:

Nah, Kunzait's posts are far more interesting and insightful than my drivel; I'm a technical manual, and Kunzait's a philosophy paper (but in a good way).
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:45 am
Huh, I never knew that the deinterlacing issues were common. I TOTALLY thought that was just an issue with my Dragon Box; it totally halted my progress on the second pass of The First Chapters because I just COULDN'T figure out how to solve it!
Hah. Yes, it's something that trips a lot of people up when dealing with DVD footage or similar.
You just run an IVTC on it, and you're good. Might want to check you've got proper 23.976 output from it, though; MediaInfo should be able to help you there. Though it might list the framerate as being "24000/1001". This is because 24000 divided by 1001 is the actual number of frames per second of 24fps aka 23.976fps playback (which comes out to 23.976023976023976023... It recurs infinitely).

I believe the Avisynth filter for a proper IVTC is something like tfm.tdecimate(). If you use VirtualDub, it should have an IVTC filter; just be sure to set it to decimate, and automatically detect the phase of it. I think there might be a way to do it via ffmpeg too, but ffmpeg is arcane wizardry. :lol:

I believe the main problem with the Dragon Boxes here is that some episodes aren't properly flagged, so a lot of automated processes to deal with IVTC just don't treat it properly; manually putting in a filter like tfm.tdecimate() should force it into actually figuring it out, but letting your encoder just deal with it will give you trouble.
But I think the problem does go deeper in a way, because I seem to recall running into the problem that the episodes afflicted by this ended up heavily macroblocked too. I think the interlacing flags weren't set up properly at the encoding step, so the DVD encoding handled the episodes improperly...
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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by gokaiblue » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:36 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:19 am
gokaiblue wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:58 am
I've seen some great results from color correcting the Dragon Boxes, so that mixed with the broadcast audio would be good enough for me. If people want to do any sort of digital sharpening, then that's their prerogative. What I would want from this project would be color correction, maybe some upscaling and deinterlacing, and the broadcast audio. That would be my perfect "remaster."
You seem misinformed on various aspects of this, so if you'll indulge me for a moment, I'd like to explain why I think the efforts you describe would be a bad idea in this case...

Deinterlacing would usually be an incorrect proceedure for Dragon Ball. What would be needed would be an IVTC; deinterlacing should turn 30fps interlaced into 60fps progressive so that the 60 fields contained in the 30 frames of the interlaced picture in a second are properly rendered on a modern progressive display.
DVD is an interlaced 30fps format in NTSC regions like the USA and Japan, so 24fps film content like Dragon Ball has to be spread out across the 60 fields of a 30i picture, so you need an IVTC process to reverse that and get the original 24fps results out. (Though technically, it's not 60, 30, or 24 we're dealing with here, it's closer to 59.94, 29.97, and 23.976, but that's neither here nor there)

Upscaling gives no benefit that your TV or media player won't already give you (remember, standard-def content only has standard-def detail; upscaling can just spread the pixels of that standard-def image out over a larger number of pixels, sometimes in fancier ways than others. You can't just add HD detail to an SD image, the detail simply doesn't exist), and in fact upscaling would be an active detriment to a fan-remaster project, as using upscaling to pad the original picture out to a larger size will just unnecessarily inflate the filesize to at least 4x what it would need at standard-def if you want it to look as good as it did at standard-def, and that combined with any potential sharpening would accentuate all the flaws of the original DVD encode such as banding, macroblocking, etc.
And typically, when a fancy upscaling project is put into force, something such as "Waifu" is used, which is designed for digitally-animated stuff from the 2000s that simply don't have elements that can be re-scanned into HD, so if you plug an older film-based anime like Dragon Ball into it, it ends up destroying all the texture and detail in the image in much the same way as Funi's releases do, but because it's got the well-liked "Dragon Box" and "Fan remaster" labels on it, people eat it up anyway.

An upscaled Blu-ray release of a TV show might look a little better than the standard-def DVD release would look upscaled by your TV, but that's because the Blu-ray format allows for an insanely high bitrate; 50GB per disc will typically mean such a release will have close to 10GB per episode. But the improvement is tiny, and rarely worth the money such upscaled releases cost compared to their DVD counterpart. And such releases are based off of uncompressed/lossless source elements, and use professional workstations, filtering, etc., all of which gives such releases such a massive edge on fan efforts, and even this only gives the tiniest edge over your TV upscaling the DVDs...
Point is: An upscaled Blu-ray release could look a little better than the DVD. A little.
A fan effort will look the same or worse. Likely a little worse.

Sharpening is ridiculous, because like upscaling, it doesn't add any detail to the picture, it just gives a superficially-sharper look to the picture, while also introducing haloing, accentuating all the banding, macroblocking, etc., and unless you're combining it with some kind of DNR filter (though I think Waifu does some pretty strong DNR of its own anyway), it will pretty heavily accentuate the grain in some rather ugly ways.
Ultimately, the only way you'll get sharpening that looks any good on standard-def DVD video is if you apply it so lightly that it's barely even worth applying.
Toei's BD releases of their HD remasters of the movies rely very heavily on digital sharpening to mitigate the damage done by their overly-strong DNR filtering, and while the results are typically okay since that detail is there in the image, the sharpening just gives the already-HD image a somewhat cleaner look, it only really looks good when it's subtlely applied; the one or two movies where it's applied much more strongly (Z movie 5, for instance) looks butt-ugly.
But, Dragon Box is standard-def. There's no HD details to clean up. Putting a sharpening filter on it will just make it uglier.

Colour correction can be done rather well, but I've rarely seen a case where someone who's any good at it won't apply other filters that ruin it. DNR, waifu upscaling, sharpening, etc. etc.
A decent colour correction, and a solid broadcast audio sync would probably make for a rather good Dragon Box-based fan release, but talking about doing any kind of more complex "Fan remastering" will undoubtedly result in use of over-applied sharpening, DNR, upscaling, and maybe a grain plate to try to hide some of the ugly flaws of the DVD image that this has all uncovered.
And yet, the end result would still be inferior to what a decent HDTV would give you by just playing the Dragon Boxes back with a proper white balance and broadcast audio put on top.

And when we're talking about 508 episodes of TV, all of which would need several hours of work to get the colours right if you're doing much more than white balancing and some basic other adjustments, I doubt you'll find someone who'd be willing to put that much effort in without leaving their own further stamp on it, especially when the risk of Toei putting out their own HD master that would invalidate all this work is potentially right around the corner.

.

So... No, I disagree with you. I think you're wrong about all this, and I think any fan project that goes beyond just syncing up broadcast audio and running some basic colour correction is a fool's errand that's only given any support because a lot of people simply don't understand/know this nerdy crap of which I've just inflicted a mini TedTalk on you.
It's basically the same problem with Funi's crappy releases, but the target is people who know enough to know Funi's releases are crap, but don't quite know enough to know the dos and don'ts of fan projects.
I'm not sure we're in too much of a disagreement actually.

First off, I only suggested deinterlancing because I know you can do that with 480i game footage and get good results, but I might have been mistaken. Secondly, the only upscaling I would need would really be one that would spread the pixels out, something that I thought if redone would look better than having it be at the whims of one's television. Again, being a video novice, I was mistaken. In regards to sharpening, I would only want enough enough sharpening to bring out the existing line work, so probably little to no sharpening.

In regards to the amount, that's where crowdsourcing comes in. This hypothetical project wouldn't be done by just one fan but by several (who were all hopefully on the same page).

I think I mostly agree with you that all a fan project needs is to color correct the Dragon Box footage and synch up the Broadcast audio. Anything beyond that would be a bit ambitious.
Looking for these rare items/information:

Any information or recordings pertaining to Dragon Ball Z's syndicated run on WAWB
Any information regarding the stations that carried the origin Dragon Ball in the USA
Dragon Box (any deals would be nice)
Shonen Jumps with Dragon Ball in them

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by KBABZ » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:09 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:54 am
Hah. Yes, it's something that trips a lot of people up when dealing with DVD footage or similar.
You just run an IVTC on it, and you're good.
I'll be perfectly honest, this is the first time I've ever heard of an IVTC and I've no idea what it is or if there's a "best one".

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Char Aznable » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:20 pm

I feel that a lot of this speculation could be put to rest if AM would be willing to detail what kind of remastering process he'd like to undertake, and how he plans on acquiring the source material to do it. Getting the source material is probably the hardest part, followed closely behind warding off shutdown notices from Toei or FUNimation.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:35 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:09 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:54 am
Hah. Yes, it's something that trips a lot of people up when dealing with DVD footage or similar.
You just run an IVTC on it, and you're good.
I'll be perfectly honest, this is the first time I've ever heard of an IVTC and I've no idea what it is or if there's a "best one".
There's not really such a thing as better or worse IVTCs; it's a very simple filter.

As I say, for Avisynth you just use tfm.tdecimate(). It uses a package called TIVTC.
And VirtualDub's built in "IVTC" filter works fine.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by KBABZ » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:51 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:35 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:09 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:54 am
Hah. Yes, it's something that trips a lot of people up when dealing with DVD footage or similar.
You just run an IVTC on it, and you're good.
I'll be perfectly honest, this is the first time I've ever heard of an IVTC and I've no idea what it is or if there's a "best one".
There's not really such a thing as better or worse IVTCs; it's a very simple filter.

As I say, for Avisynth you just use tfm.tdecimate(). It uses a package called TIVTC.
And VirtualDub's built in "IVTC" filter works fine.
Guess I better consult Google on how to do it, haha.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:36 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:35 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:09 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:54 am
Hah. Yes, it's something that trips a lot of people up when dealing with DVD footage or similar.
You just run an IVTC on it, and you're good.
I'll be perfectly honest, this is the first time I've ever heard of an IVTC and I've no idea what it is or if there's a "best one".
There's not really such a thing as better or worse IVTCs; it's a very simple filter.

As I say, for Avisynth you just use tfm.tdecimate(). It uses a package called TIVTC.
And VirtualDub's built in "IVTC" filter works fine.
some episodes need more things than ivtc, if you watch db ep 26 second half, episode 41 when hacchan is destroying the muscle tower and dbz ep 24 from japanese dbox you'll understand what i mean

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm

HakkaiBills93 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:36 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:35 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:09 pm

I'll be perfectly honest, this is the first time I've ever heard of an IVTC and I've no idea what it is or if there's a "best one".
There's not really such a thing as better or worse IVTCs; it's a very simple filter.

As I say, for Avisynth you just use tfm.tdecimate(). It uses a package called TIVTC.
And VirtualDub's built in "IVTC" filter works fine.
some episodes need more things than ivtc, if you watch db ep 26 second half, episode 41 when hacchan is destroying the muscle tower and dbz ep 24 from japanese dbox you'll understand what i mean
IIRC, the problem with that episode isn't that IVTC won't fix it, it's that most automatic filters won't detect the pulldown on that one, and thus won't apply the IVTC.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by KBABZ » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:18 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm
IIRC, the problem with that episode isn't that IVTC won't fix it, it's that most automatic filters won't detect the pulldown on that one, and thus won't apply the IVTC.
I'm guessing the pull-down is that thing where part of the next frame is visible at the bottom of the frame? If I ever get that far I'm gonna try and fix it, painful as that may be.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:06 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm
HakkaiBills93 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:36 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:35 pm


There's not really such a thing as better or worse IVTCs; it's a very simple filter.

As I say, for Avisynth you just use tfm.tdecimate(). It uses a package called TIVTC.
And VirtualDub's built in "IVTC" filter works fine.
some episodes need more things than ivtc, if you watch db ep 26 second half, episode 41 when hacchan is destroying the muscle tower and dbz ep 24 from japanese dbox you'll understand what i mean
IIRC, the problem with that episode isn't that IVTC won't fix it, it's that most automatic filters won't detect the pulldown on that one, and thus won't apply the IVTC.
This issue is not IVTC it's 100% correctible and not by any kind of ivtc it's a chroma issue and thoses episodes when you use dgmpgdec didn't say the same things as the others one, it's boring all those interlacing, ivtc stories , i can understand why on tv you can use this kind of things but on dvd and bluray i can't accept them even if with bluray, it's less and less used

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:59 am

KBABZ wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:18 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 pm
IIRC, the problem with that episode isn't that IVTC won't fix it, it's that most automatic filters won't detect the pulldown on that one, and thus won't apply the IVTC.
I'm guessing the pull-down is that thing where part of the next frame is visible at the bottom of the frame? If I ever get that far I'm gonna try and fix it, painful as that may be.
No. What you're describing is just one of the many flaws in the Dragon Box transfer that exists due to incompetence. Episode 52 is what you're talking about, I think?
I think the telecine transferring that episode was improperly calibrated -- as was the case in many episodes, in different ways -- in this case resulting in the picture alignment being off.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: It’s time for fans to come together and remaster the series properly.

Post by KBABZ » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:17 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:59 am
No. What you're describing is just one of the many flaws in the Dragon Box transfer that exists due to incompetence. Episode 52 is what you're talking about, I think?
I think the telecine transferring that episode was improperly calibrated -- as was the case in many episodes, in different ways -- in this case resulting in the picture alignment being off.
Never got that far with T1C; you have a screenshot available?

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