Things you wish Toriyama never said (about characters or story)

[TobyS]

Was Tien as an alien him? I'd say that's the worst, for not only diminishing the mystical angle of the character, but for further kicking the boot into the idea that humans are worthless next to aliens. Like, of course Tien is stronger than most normal humans, he's part alien! Get out of here with that.

Weirdly enough, I don't mind S-Cells as much because the Saiyans were already introduced as a sci-fi concept. Like, S-Cells and how he described them could have easily fit into the original run alongside things like the great ape transformation being caused by "Blutz waves". If you had done that at any point with Tien being an alien however, it wouldn't have fit in, even back in the day.

I don't mind the Tenshinhan alien thing as it's potential for a comeback/power up/transformation.

Yes humans should get more respect as humans but I'll take what I can get....

[Big Boss]

Boo and Bardock/Gine

[Melee_Sovereign]

I actually like Buu's new origin better. His pre-retcon origin where he's a creation of Bibidi is too similar of a trope to Cell. Cell being a creation, covers that trope already, and he does it far better.

Buu actually seems like a being that is in fact some sort of cosmic entity of chaos, rather than something deliberately created. I like the idea of an antagonistic cosmic entity existing in Dragon Ball that doesn't necessarily fit in with the divine hierarchy (Destroyer Gods, Kais, Angels etc). It gives Buu somewhat of a Lovecraftian element to him.

[TheOverlyMadHatter]

Pretty much most things pertaining to character origins or backstory that isn't established in the mainline series. It usually ends up contradicting prior (and now with Super) or future information.

[SaintEvolution]

Hit Freeza Jiren getting that strong w.o god ki yet Goku needing it to be on their level.

Hit at least has something like 1000 years, he had a lot of time to train and we know very few about his race and previous life conditions. Almost the same goes for Jiren.

About Frieza, in the Broly movie, if I'm not wrong they tried to imply that Frieza would be some kind of mutant of his own race, but I agree that is hard to buy the idea of him becaming strong as Goku and Vegeta without the God Ki. It bothers me at some point.

[ABED]

I actually like Buu's new origin better. His pre-retcon origin where he's a creation of Bibidi is too similar of a trope to Cell. Cell being a creation, covers that trope already, and he does it far better.

Buu actually seems like a being that is in fact some sort of cosmic entity of chaos, rather than something deliberately created. I like the idea of an antagonistic cosmic entity existing in Dragon Ball that doesn't necessarily fit in with the divine hierarchy (Destroyer Gods, Kais, Angels etc). It gives Buu somewhat of a Lovecraftian element to him.

But your explanation of the trope is so vague that every character falls into that category. Everyone was created by someone, most by natural birth. The big deal about Cell being a creation is that he was created from the Cells of most of the strongest beings in the universe. His origin is unique and nothing like Buu's which is mystical in origin.

[FoolsGil]

In the most recent interview, Toriyama said that Goku doesn't care or think much about his family. I honestly don't understand why Toriyama is continually going out of his way to make Goku by human standards a deadbeat, and yet Vegeta, Broly, and Bardock seem like better people by comparison. Even Raditz was quite upset when Goku forgot him, quite sentimental all things considered.

[ABED]

In the most recent interview, Toriyama said that Goku doesn't care or think much about his family. I honestly don't understand why Toriyama is continually going out of his way to make Goku by human standards a deadbeat, and yet Vegeta, Broly, and Bardock seem like better people by comparison. Even Raditz was quite upset when Goku forgot him, quite sentimental all things considered.

How? Because he said Goku doesn't think about his family much? What about all the time Goku is with them? What about him doing what a father should do - teach his kids what they need to deal with the world, love and support them? Vegeta massacres planet after planet, as does Bardock and somehow they seem like better people?

None of what Toriyama says actually matters if it's not in the story or if it isn't shown.

[Melee_Sovereign]

]But your explanation of the trope is so vague that every character falls into that category. Everyone was created by someone, most by natural birth.

Oh come the F on, you know what the hell I mean! I'm not talking about a natural birth!

The big deal about Cell being a creation is that he was created from the Cells of most of the strongest beings in the universe. His origin is unique and nothing like Buu's which is mystical in origin.

Obviously being an amalgamation of the main cast is unique for Cell. But nothing like Buu? The similarity I was obviously pointing out is that both of them were created by a creator (not a parent) for a purpose. That is enough of a similarity for me to point out. I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but it's silly to say they're nothing alike. It's bad enough they both absorb people and transform from it.

Yeah, Buu is a mystical being while Cell is a creation of science. You basically could say that Buu is the magic version of Cell.

Buu being some cosmic entity is a lot different, which is what I like about it. It adds even more differentiation to any differentiation that already exists (such as Cell being an amalgamation, as you pointed out).

[FoolsGil]

In the most recent interview, Toriyama said that Goku doesn't care or think much about his family. I honestly don't understand why Toriyama is continually going out of his way to make Goku by human standards a deadbeat, and yet Vegeta, Broly, and Bardock seem like better people by comparison. Even Raditz was quite upset when Goku forgot him, quite sentimental all things considered.

How? Because he said Goku doesn't think about his family much? What about all the time Goku is with them? What about him doing what a father should do - teach his kids what they need to deal with the world, love and support them? Vegeta massacres planet after planet, as does Bardock and somehow they seem like better people?

None of what Toriyama says actually matters if it's not in the story or if it isn't shown.

Well, I wish Toriyama never said it. And I'm not here to debate it.

[ABED]

]But your explanation of the trope is so vague that every character falls into that category. Everyone was created by someone, most by natural birth.

Oh come the F on, you know what the hell I mean! I'm not talking about a natural birth!

The big deal about Cell being a creation is that he was created from the Cells of most of the strongest beings in the universe. His origin is unique and nothing like Buu's which is mystical in origin.

Obviously being an amalgamation of the main cast is unique for Cell. But nothing like Buu? The similarity I was obviously pointing out is that both of them were created by a creator (not a parent) for a purpose. That is enough of a similarity for me to point out. I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but it's silly to say they're nothing alike. It's bad enough they both absorb people and transform from it.

Yeah, Buu is a mystical being while Cell is a creation of science. You basically could say that Buu is the magic version of Cell.

Buu being some cosmic entity is a lot different, which is what I like about it. It adds even more differentiation to any differentiation that already exists (such as Cell being an amalgamation, as you pointed out).

I do know what you mean, but them being created by someone (even if not from natural birth) is so general and non-essential. Okay, they are alike, aside from look, backstory, reason for being created, their motivations, characterization, etc, they are VERY similar. Sorry about the sarcasm, but being created by some other character is incredibly general.

I don't know why anyone cares whether he said it. I've never seen Super so I don't know or even care if they retconned it in that series, but it's not in DB in any way shape or form and thus can be easily dismissed.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I do know what you mean, but them being created by someone (even if not from natural birth) is so general and non-essential.

lol, what? Any character that's a deliberate creation is usually a very defining aspect of that character. The likes of Mewtwo, Doomsday, Terminator etc... come to mind. There's nothing really general about it.

I mean yes, it's general. But it's general in a similar way to two characters being, say... a ninja. As general as that is, two characters being a ninja is a significant similarity. Similar enough to where a third character NOT being a ninja is a big enough difference to matter for something. So sure, a ninja is very general and rather common in fiction. But non-the-less, also very defining and NOT non-essential.

Being a deliberate creation is similar in that regard.

Okay, they are alike, aside from look, backstory, reason for being created, their motivations, characterization, etc, they are VERY similar. Sorry about the sarcasm, but being created by some other character is incredibly general.

Hur dur, the differences you point out are so general and non-essential. See? I can do that too. Sorry for the sarcasm.

My overall point is, I rather them be more different than more similar. It really doesn't matter to me how many pre-existing differences you can point out. Buu's new backstory is one I like a lot better because it further differentiates him from Cell.

I already don't like that they repeated the whole absorbing trope, and that's a big similarity in it of it self. And I could argue the significance of that with how it plays on an essential narrative of Dragon Ball. That being, getting strong and improving in general, is a huge part of this franchise. So having two villains -- in DRAGON BALL -- that absorbs people, gets stronger from it, and transforms, is A BIG DEAL in this series. And don't even try to say this is non-essential. Maybe it would be in some other franchise, but not Dragon Ball. It's the main reason I say Buu is a magical version of Cell. They're two villains that exist in a franchise, where getting stronger by some means, is an essential and recurring trope. And they get stronger basically the same way.

But that's another tangent. Still, it makes me appreciated any other differences they could add to both characters.

I've never seen Super so I don't know or even care if they retconned it in that series, but it's not in DB in any way shape or form and thus can be easily dismissed.

Super is official canon, and it's fairly long, meaning it contains a lot. You ought to watch Super before you adopt any attitude where you dismiss something that's potentially significant about DB lore. Super itself has now a significant part of Dragon Ball, so to know nothing about it means you're missing out on a lot.

[ABED]

Being a ninja isn't general, it's VERY specific. It tells you their methods and most likely their nationality. Those are essential details for a character. Being created is not remotely the same thing as being a ninja.

Regarding your Terminator example, Cameron was making a larger point about the dangers of technological progress for its own sake. I don't think Toriyama was making a bigger point about humanity when he created Cell's backstory other than the novelty of a being created of Cells of other characters. Buu, the same thing. He just needed a different way of explaining where the character came from.

Okay, they both absorb people. That's specific. 1 point to Ravenclaw.

You ought to watch Super before you adopt any attitude where you dismiss something that's potentially significant about DB lore.
I can dismiss Super outright since nothing in it changes the manga. The manga has a beginning, middle, and end. Unless the powers that be George Lucas it, nothing Toriyama says or Toei does afterwards changes those stories.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Being a ninja isn't general, it's VERY specific. It tells you their methods and most likely their nationality. Those are essential details for a character. Being created is not remotely the same thing as being a ninja.

And being a creation doesn't do those things? What is nationality? Well that gives you information on their origin. So does being a creation. Your origin is already self-explanatory. Methods? Like being a Ninja, if you're a creation, that's a pretty good indicator that your methods for anything are meticulously by design.

And actually, come to think of it, this is like the whole absorption thing. Being a creation IN DRAGON BALL, as opposed to being a natural life form, is a big deal. Think about it. You have all these natural life forms that train to get stronger. Frieza being a natural life form that never needed to train, establishes a sort of prodigious aspect to him. This wouldn't work if he were a creation. A creation in Dragon Ball likely means this character was tailor made to become powerful. That is not non-essential by any means.

Imagine we found out Goku were a creation this whole time. You're gonna tell me that wouldn't change him significantly?

[ABED]

No, being a creation doesn't do any of those things. It says nothing up top about the themes or characteristics of those characters. A Terminator being created, absent any other details, says nothing.

Frieza being a natural life form that never needed to train, establishes a sort of prodigious aspect to him. This wouldn't work if he were a creation. A creation in Dragon Ball likely means this character was tailor made to become powerful. That is not non-essential by any means.

Or you could put it another way, Toriyama needed another way to explain how a character is so strong. It's just another way to get to the same point. Toriyama doesn't say much with these details. Unlike James Cameron, he's not making a point when he introduces cyborgs into the story. It's just another type of character to add variety. Instead of a myriad of mystical martial artists all coming from Earth, he introduces cyborgs, aliens, demons, etc. He needs the characters to come from somewhere and having them all come from the same place isn't as interesting as from a variety different places. He's not making a broader statement about humanity as far as I can tell. I don't see how Freeza being a natural is much different Gero creating a strong being like Cell. Ultimately both explanations get you to the same place, creating a logical reason for the antagonist to come into conflict and be a challenge for the hero. Nothing more, nothing less. It's nice variety in backstory, though. Buu and Cell being created is similar but that doesn't make them the same. Absorbing people and getting stronger is a big similarity because it's specific.

Imagine we found out Goku were a creation this whole time. You're gonna tell me that wouldn't change him significantly?

Being an alien, beyond giving Goku explanations for transformations, really didn't fundamentally change him or how we should look at him.

[Tai Lung]

-What problem do people have with S cells? For a long time it did not matter how other characters were transformed like the case of goten and kid trunks .
-Buu does not change anything important ...
-Goku and his family have been discussed since always if the author prefers to clarify that point, so ok.

well in my case ...
-that a human or saiyan can became kaioshin training for it.
-that a kaio can be promoted to kaioshin ....
-some parts of DB minus manga
-that goku was not at the birth of gohan (and seriously where did it go?)
-that gogeta is the same as vegito although the manga says otherwise ...

[superfan2024]

-Frieza never trained before

This was actually implied in the original manga (and outright stated in the Daizenshuu).

Yea but it's more about entire "he never trained before so in 4 months of beating Dodoria tier soldier he surpassess SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJG and SSJB" thing that RoF/DBS tried to tell us

To be honest, NuBroly kind of does the same thing, but this time in mere minutes.