Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

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TobyS
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:17 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:47 pm Read the manga on the official Japanese website.

In short(and if I didn't misunderstood): Red Mask Saiyan is NOT
He is
Red Mask Saiyan is also
Last, the cards revealed the names of the various new forms:
Vegita: Super Saiyan BlueSSGSS - Berserk Controlled
Turles: Evil Saiyan
Red Mask Saiyan: Super Saiyan Rosé (no Rosé2 or whatever)
That's dumb heroes, there aren't that many timelines and although you can dip in and make them the time patrol would fix them and undo it.

So he could be doing it but you'd think the time patrol would have intervened instantly.... Bizarre.

I'm glad he's not super rose two that was stupid it's not his super Saiyan For toriyama said it's his blue.

Goku should really be able to use UI white by now lol.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:26 pm

Well, the "natural course" is Goku alive and experiencing the events (Pilaf saga, tournaments, Red Ribbon saga, etc...), so when you go and kill Goku from the Pilaf saga, a new timeline is created, one that Goku doesn't exist, and the other where he exists and proceeds to experience the next event, then Goku Black goes and kills this next one. You can kill a lot of Gokus like so, and that's probably what has been happened.

The Time Patrol is busy at the moment dealing with Fu, they are not omnipresent and omniscient.

Super Saiyan Rosé 2 is scheduled to come in BBM9 (to be released next month or August). They never said it was coming in BBM8. Also, Super Saiyan Rosé being Goku Black's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan does not mean he cannot go Super Saiyan Rosé 2, in fact, that's precisely the reason why he can go.
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:22 am

wow, Turles became a good guy and protected Vegeta from Black by sacrificing himself.
Never thought I'd see that day, so heroic.

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:27 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:26 pm Well, the "natural course" is Goku alive and experiencing the events (Pilaf saga, tournaments, Red Ribbon saga, etc...), so when you go and kill Goku from the Pilaf saga, a new timeline is created, one that Goku doesn't exist, and the other where he exists and proceeds to experience the next event, then Goku Black goes and kills this next one. You can kill a lot of Gokus like so, and that's probably what has been happened.

The Time Patrol is busy at the moment dealing with Fu, they are not omnipresent and omniscient.

Super Saiyan Rosé 2 is scheduled to come in BBM9 (to be released next month or August). They never said it was coming in BBM8. Also, Super Saiyan Rosé being Goku Black's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan does not mean he cannot go Super Saiyan Rosé 2, in fact, that's precisely the reason why he can go.
Except they would detect a distortion in the scrolls and send someone to check it out.

She knew about Trunks the first time he did it she just allowed it because his intentions were noble in xenoverse
In the manga she finds what trunks did while investigating the bigger damage Towa was causing iirc.

But I can't imagine making 98 alterations killing a lynchpin guy like Goku would not be detectable to them.

They are busy with Fuu now but he probably started working on killing Gokus before this given how many he's killed.

We've never seen 2 or 3 combined with Blue before and I don't buy Zamasu figuring it out before Goku and Vegeta.

There was only 5 timelines now they just imply 98 more on a careless whim? Not a fan.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:30 am

Xeogran wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:22 am wow, Turles became a good guy and protected Vegeta from Black by sacrificing himself.
Never thought I'd see that day, so heroic.
I think it was more solidarity with a real Saiyan Vs this fake.

In the anime vegeta dresses him down and says he should train I stead of relying on fruit or something and Turles seems happy about returning to his routes as a low class Saiyan rather than this weird cheater he's become. It's a weirdly sweet moment for heroes. I assume the dialogue was similar here.

So he's sort of paying vegeta back for providing his (now deathbed) epiphany. It's an awesome little moment.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:59 am

TobyS wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:27 amExcept they would detect a distortion in the scrolls and send someone to check it out.
Every time Kaioshin of Time sensed an alteration in the scrolls, she was in the Time Nest. We don't know if she can sense it being far away from that place.
TobyS wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:27 amBut I can't imagine making 98 alterations killing a lynchpin guy like Goku would not be detectable to them.
Why? It's not like Goku is some sort of beacon that whatever happens to him, the Universe must know it.
TobyS wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:27 amThey are busy with Fuu now but he probably started working on killing Gokus before this given how many he's killed.
We don't know that.
TobyS wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:27 amWe've never seen 2 or 3 combined with Blue before and I don't buy Zamasu figuring it out before Goku and Vegeta.
So? You don't need to have seen it before, all you need to know is that if it's possible to combine the power of (Super Saiyan) God with the Super Saiyan transformation, then it should be possible to do that with Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3.

As for who attains it first, that's Dragon Ball Super problem. The series should've introduced it. I can see Goku Black not achieving it because he just got Super Saiyan Rosé, but Goku and Vegeta had Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for a long(er) time, so they should have figured it out.

All we can do now is hope that once Goku and Vegeta see Super Saiyan Rosé 2, they will stop being dumb and will ditch Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (as well as Evolution and Kaio-Ken) in favor of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2.
TobyS wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:27 amThere was only 5 timelines now they just imply 98 more on a careless whim? Not a fan.
You said it right "there was", and it was never said there couldn't be more. I stated one possibility in how there could be more timelines. You may not be a fan, but that doesn't mean what they're doing is wrong or anything.
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:51 pm

Thematically speaking, SS2 and SS3 are not within the interests of Goku and Vegeta to obtain.
They are but tweaks on the standard SS transformation, but they are less efficient(especially SS3!).
"At the end, basic SS is best"

Even Blue Evolution was but used to get a limited power-upgrade fast and then dropped because improving basic Blue is better... and then they got UI and Hakai to use to improve.

Then again, of course, this is Heroes and they can just not care.
I'd prefer if they at least present it as something different, if it's actually coming and it's not just "Rosé with lightning to show it's stronger"

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:24 pm

It is not within the interests of Goku to use it with Super Saiyan 2 (a form with minor if any flaws at all) but it is within his interests to use it with Kaio-Ken (a technique with major flaws and seemingly can only multiply up until 20). :roll:

Super Saiyan will never be the best as long as Super Saiyan 2 exists. The worst thing it does is probably consuming the energy faster. However, considering the characters never complained about that when talking about Super Saiyan 2, we're to believe it is not a burden to maintain such form.

Maybe it works for Vegeta, if we assume that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2, but we have no evidences of that.
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:07 pm

the main issue is... would SS2 even be possible to use while in combo with SSG?

Perhaps Evolution already is "SS2" when stacked on Blue.

Plus, regular SS2 just gives a x2 improvement over SS, while Kaiohken provides a xN, with Goku being able to get a x20

And there is the whole theme going: KK and Evo were both attempts to get stronger "fast" but where not "good enough" and got dropped in favor of UI and Spirit Control→Hakai aka "control over sheer power".

So, yeah. Goku and Vegeta has no need nor reason to get Blue2.


This doesn't necessarily apply to Crimson Mask.
KK and Evo really aren't his style. Complete BlueRosé is probably going to be utterly ignored by everybody forever because it's graphically boring(it's just BlueRosé without the aura!).
So... yeah, he might reach\stack SS2 over God.
Still thinking it's lazy, but it can be made work in contrast to Goku and Vegeta using different methods to improve instead of just tweaking the SS transformation.

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:06 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:07 pmwould SS2 even be possible to use while in combo with SSG?
If it is possible with Super Saiyan, why wouldn't it be possible with Super Saiyan 2?
ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:07 pmPlus, regular SS2 just gives a x2 improvement over SS, while Kaiohken provides a xN, with Goku being able to get a x20
Exactly. That's precisely the reason why Super Saiyan 2 is better. As far as the series is concerned, Goku can go up to Kaio-Ken x20. Super Saiyan 2 is way much stronger than that.
ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:07 pmAnd there is the whole theme going: KK and Evo were both attempts to get stronger "fast" but where not "good enough" and got dropped in favor of UI and Spirit Control→Hakai aka "control over sheer power".
I don't know why you bring Toyotaro stuff up here. Yes, this is the manga thread of Heroes, but it still uses the anime as its basis. So there's no "Spirit Control" or whatever in all Heroes continuities (arcade, anime and manga), they are all based in the anime.

You kind of have a point for Ultra Instinct. Though it's not like Goku will use Ultra Instinct for every single fight, we will continue to see Goku using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan too, and for those occasions, that's when Goku should use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 instead.
ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:07 pmKK and Evo really aren't his style.
Kaio-Ken is a technique created by a god, if anything, it should be Goku Black's style.
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:16 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:06 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:07 pmwould SS2 even be possible to use while in combo with SSG?
If it is possible with Super Saiyan, why wouldn't it be possible with Super Saiyan 2?
Because they are different

Kaiohken is impossible with SS, but it's possible with Blue.
ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:07 pmPlus, regular SS2 just gives a x2 improvement over SS, while Kaiohken provides a xN, with Goku being able to get a x20
Exactly. That's precisely the reason why Super Saiyan 2 is better. As far as the series is concerned, Goku can go up to Kaio-Ken x20. Super Saiyan 2 is way much stronger than that.
what?
SS2 is just x2
KK is x20

how, exactly, is SS2 stronger?

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:38 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:16 pmBecause they are different
They aren't. Super Saiyan 2 comes from the same branch as the Super Saiyan, it is a Super Saiyan, just stronger.
ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:16 pmwhat?
SS2 is just x2
KK is x20

how, exactly, is SS2 stronger?
Super Saiyan 2's multiplier is x100. It is one hundred times stronger than base form. "100" is a greater number than "20".
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:11 am

Grimlock wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:38 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:16 pmwhat?
SS2 is just x2
KK is x20

how, exactly, is SS2 stronger?
Super Saiyan 2's multiplier is x100. It is one hundred times stronger than base form. "100" is a greater number than "20".
SS2 is x2 times stronger than SS1
Blue is not Base. Blue is SS1.

KK can go up to x20 times Blue.
SS2 goes up to x2 times Blue(in theor)

do the math

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:23 pm

Imagine telling people to "do the math" while failing to realize the obvious. :roll:

Alright, let's assume the multipliers of the regular Super Saiyan forms still work with the god forms:

Base )---> Super Saiyan (x50 stronger than base form) along with the god power, and an additional of x20 from Kaio-Ken. In total, it's a power boost of x70 from base form (plus the god power, which we don't know its own multiplier).

Base )---> Super Saiyan 2 (x100 stronger than base form) along with the god power, and an additional of x20 from Kaio-Ken. In total, it's a power boost of x120 from base form (plus the god power, which we don't know its own multiplier).

x120 is a greater multiplier than x70, thus the former provides much more power than the latter ever could. That's how Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (just like Super Saiyan 2 is compared to Super Saiyan).

The only way for Kaio-Ken to make Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to outperform its successor, is if Goku uses Kaio-Ken with a multiplier of x51 or above that, because that would mean:

Base )---> Super Saiyan (x50 stronger than base form) along with the god power, and an additional of x51 from Kaio-Ken. In total, it's a power boost of x101 from base form. This is enough to surpass Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 (since its multiplier is greater than x100).

But Goku never did that, we don't know if he can do that. The best he can is x20, so yeah... Forget about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan with Kaio-Ken being better than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 (with or without Kaio-Ken), this will never be a reality.
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:29 am

None of the authors are writing their Dragon Ball stories with a calculator in one hand and the guidebooks open to the pages with formulas.

There’s no reason to ever have an attitude with a fellow fan over this kind of stuff.
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:39 am

Grimlock wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:23 pm maths
I don't really understand what you're saying. Do you think that a hypothetical super saiyan blue 2 would be over 20x stronger than super saiyan blue? Or that kaioken x 20 super saiyan blue isn't 20x stronger than a regular super saiyan blue?

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:04 am

Yeah, I'm not following either.

When Goku uses KK with blue, he doubles his SSB power, just like SS2 does to SS. And with the KKx10, he becomes 10x stronger than blue, not 60x stronger than his base form/SSG form, that would be a 1,2 increase of blue's power. It's stacked on top of his full power, he uses it when he is already in his blue form, not before.

If Goku blue is 10, with KKx10 = 100.
If Goku blue is 10, doubling the power like SS2 does = 20.


Like Mike said, they don't write this down with a calculator next to them. The simplest answer is the right one, 10x KK increases his blue power tenfold.

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:52 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:39 am I don't really understand what you're saying. Do you think that a hypothetical super saiyan blue 2 would be over 20x stronger than super saiyan blue? Or that kaioken x 20 super saiyan blue isn't 20x stronger than a regular super saiyan blue?
Neither of those, I mentioned "(plus the god power, which we don't know its own multiplier)". Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 would be x50 and whatever is the multiplier of "god power" (if it has at all) stronger than its predecessor.

But like I said, we don't know if these multipliers still apply to god forms. It's possible that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan completely ignores the Super Saiyan multiplier (x50), for all we know.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:04 amWhen Goku uses KK with blue, he doubles his SSB power, just like SS2 does to SS.
But you do know the difference, right? When Kaio-Ken doubles the power, we're talking about a "x2" multiplier (that's what basic Kaio-Ken does/is). Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as the Super Saiyan, so we're talking about another "x50" multiplier. Super Saiyan 2 formula is: x50 + x50 = x100.

When Goku transforms from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2, his power is not multiplied by 2, he has another increase of x50. That's what it means to be twice as strong as its predecessor.

Kaio-Ken can only surpass Super Saiyan 2 if Goku can use Kaio-Ken x101 (in base form) or Kaio-Ken x51 (in Super Saiyan).
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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:50 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:52 pm
When Goku transforms from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2, his power is not multiplied by 2, he has another increase of x50. That's what it means to be twice as strong as its predecessor.
As far as official information we have, SS2 doesn't ADDS. It DOUBLES.

it's not 50+50.
It's 50*2

And Kaiohken does the same. So, in the hypothesis Blue2 has the same multiplier of SS2, Blue2 would be Blue*2.

Of course, it is conceivable KK could be stacked on Blue-2... but that's a whole other discussion

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Re: Super Dragon Ball Heroes (Manga) Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:16 pm

It's the same thing... 50 + 50 = 100 or 50 x 2 = 100. The thing is, official information relies more on the multiplication, so a visual representation is the latter, but it's the same thing...

When you double 50 you get 100. That means twice the number 50. When you have five apples and you get five more apples you are doubling the amount of apples you have. 5 + 5 = 10 or 5 x 2 = 10 (in the multiplication case, you have a box containing five apples, and you'll receive another box containing five apples).

When Goku goes from base to Super Saiyan, his power is multiplied by 50 (he has a box fifty apples). And then he proceeds to go Super Saiyan 2, so his power is further increased by 50 (he's got another box of fifty apples), thus doubling the power and apples he had as Super Saiyan. Going by multiplication, when Goku goes Super Saiyan 2, he has two boxes of apples, each containing fifty.


I really don't see how this can be so difficult to understand... I do understand that Math is tricky but this is basic, guys...
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