Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by sintzu » Thu May 16, 2019 11:59 am

Toxin45 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:16 am
Beerus wasn't even a real villain dude but then super happened you praise beerus too much when he himself was small fry compared to zeno.
Beerus (at the time) captured what Roshi told Goku and Krillin all the way back before the 21st Tenkaichi, "there's always someone stronger out there". By having Beerus be the final villain (or antagonist), the story would have an open ended feeling that there would always be more out there for Goku to stive towards. Obviously the story didn't end there and we're currently seeing those adventures for ourselves, but if it did, I think it would've been perfect.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Yosheets » Thu May 16, 2019 12:28 pm

I actually agree somewhat. A lot of people say Freeza should have been the end, but Cell is where all the loose ends really tie up. I mean the biggest reason being Vegeta getting revived at the end of Freeza, and by that point in the series he's still a villain.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by ABED » Thu May 16, 2019 12:44 pm

Yosheets wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:28 pm
I actually agree somewhat. A lot of people say Freeza should have been the end, but Cell is where all the loose ends really tie up. I mean the biggest reason being Vegeta getting revived at the end of Freeza, and by that point in the series he's still a villain.
Vegeta's arc still doesn't feel complete at the close of the Cell arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Yosheets » Thu May 16, 2019 12:56 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:44 pm
Yosheets wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:28 pm
I actually agree somewhat. A lot of people say Freeza should have been the end, but Cell is where all the loose ends really tie up. I mean the biggest reason being Vegeta getting revived at the end of Freeza, and by that point in the series he's still a villain.
Vegeta's arc still doesn't feel complete at the close of the Cell arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu May 16, 2019 2:36 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:38 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:16 am
I feel that without the Majin Boo arc I would have not liked Vegeta in general, because it's only in that arc that he becomes a truly fully fleshed character, in my opinion.

But I do feel the Cell arc was the perfect conclusion for Gohan's character arc.
Vegeta was already more fleshed-out than 95% of the cast by the end of the Cell Games. The Buu saga simply widened the gap.
I don't agree with that at all. Character like Piccolo, Gohan, Freeza, Krillin and even Tenshinhan had more versatility in their character than Vegeta did at that point, in my opinion. That's not say Vegeta's character didn't have any subtle or nuanced shifts in his personality once he came back to Earth after Namek blew up. But I honestly feel a large part of the depth and poignancy of Vegeta's character development comes from the events in the Majin Boo arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 4:46 pm

I think Vegeta ending in a gray area would a be a good conclusion for his character. But seeing him going back and forth to the light side was enjoyable too.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu May 16, 2019 6:16 pm

i can't really say i agree. the boo arc is at the start is peak silly dragon ball and everything i love about the series, so it would've sucked to see one of my favorite parts of the series not happen. also i just don't think it would've been a good place to end anyway.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by emperior » Fri May 17, 2019 5:32 am

Cell arc feels conclusive enough to be a good ending, although it would have been a rather pessimistic ending for a serie such as Dragon Ball. The Buu arc also had proper closure to Vegeta’s character and the actual ending we got with Goku going off to train Uub is very fitting as a wrap-up of Goku’s story.

I wouldn’t mind it if Super actually went after the manga’s ending, though, because of how open-ended it is.
And by the way Battle of Gods probably had a better fitting ending for Dragon Ball than the original manga ever did, yet Toriyama decided to continue from that.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Cipher » Fri May 17, 2019 5:54 am

I've always felt the Cell arc would be the least fitting spot to end the series, both tonally and on a plot level. (Despite ... it actually being a series ending at least once via the first run of Kai.)

Ending with Goku's death is unexpectedly grim and self-serious for the series, though not in a particularly interesting way. Some character arcs are closed; others aren't, or aren't as sufficiently capped off as they feel by the end of the Boo arc. I also actually think the titular Dragon Balls are at their least involved in the arc, outside of the various tournaments, essentially only coming in as a fix-all at the end. Though the Boo arc maintains their fix-all status rather than integrating them heavily into its events, they at least get a final showing as the element that sees the heroes through the climax.

It may simply be a case of simply looking worse as an ending than the arcs on either side of it, but I think in particular, Goku, Vegeta and Kuririn, along with a handful of other characters, are done substantially better by the inclusion of another arc, which feels like it's making much more conscious endgame movements, despite its (in)famously fast and loose plotting. That it's also probably the most tonally sure-footed arc in the series (finally managing to marry up its elements of zany comedy and genuine tension/horror in such a way that they play off of and feed into one another) is just icing.

But also, yes: Shoutouts to Battle of Gods for being a very good epilogue. It gets lost now that it's become the launchpad for a full-blown, serialized sequel, but it's a great little post-script on its own. It never particularly demanded follow-ups.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by sintzu » Fri May 17, 2019 6:25 am

Cipher wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:54 am
Shoutouts to Battle of Gods for being a very good epilogue. It never particularly demanded follow-ups.
emperior wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:32 am
Battle of Gods probably had a better fitting ending for Dragon Ball than the original manga ever did, yet Toriyama decided to continue from that.
Toriyama wrote Battle of Gods assuming it would be the only (and possibly last) DB story he'd write so it made sense for it to have that ending/epilogue feel to it. The decision to continue was made by Toei and the other companies, Toriyama went along with them to prevent another DB Evolution from happening. I do wonder what he and the other writers could've done with the multiverse concept had Toriyama pushed for a completely new series revolving around it instead of continuing DB post-BOG. That way BOG would've hit 2 birds with one stone, it would've given us one last Toriyama written DB story AND started a completely new franchise for Toei and the other companies involved.

Regardless of how much came after it, you can still watch BOG alone after the original 2 anime and get a very satisfying conclusion out of it.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Michsi » Fri May 17, 2019 8:37 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:25 am
Cipher wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:54 am
Shoutouts to Battle of Gods for being a very good epilogue. It never particularly demanded follow-ups.
emperior wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:32 am
Battle of Gods probably had a better fitting ending for Dragon Ball than the original manga ever did, yet Toriyama decided to continue from that.
Toriyama wrote Battle of Gods assuming it would be the only (and possibly last) DB story he'd write so it made sense for it to have that ending/epilogue feel to it.
But wasn't BoG movie where we first found out about the other universes ? I remember us being pretty convinced that this was evidence of more things to come and that BoG was the start of something, not a finale.

They already stated that Kai was the test run to see if interest in DB could be revived.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by ABED » Fri May 17, 2019 9:19 am

It's both. It can act as a setup as more to come, or as a thematic finale. Goku is a character who is always looking for greater mountains to climb. Fnding out the world is even bigger than he imagined and full of fighters stronger than even the strongest he's ever faced is a great note to end it on.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by sintzu » Fri May 17, 2019 10:31 am

Michsi wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:37 am
But wasn't BoG movie where we first found out about the other universes ? I remember us being pretty convinced that this was evidence of more things to come and that BoG was the start of something, not a finale.
ABED put it perfectly. On top of that, the way they've handled the universes so far points to me that the idea was more of a thematic thing rather than something to literally explore.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Michsi » Fri May 17, 2019 11:06 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:31 am
Michsi wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:37 am
But wasn't BoG movie where we first found out about the other universes ? I remember us being pretty convinced that this was evidence of more things to come and that BoG was the start of something, not a finale.
ABED put it perfectly. On top of that, the way they've handled the universes so far points to me that the idea was more of a thematic thing rather than something to literally explore.

Here the thing though, I doubt they had any sort of concrete plans with the other universes when they were first mentioned in BoG, and I believe they threw out that information as means to get people hyped up about them. And that is what happened. They could've left it more ambiguous with a line like "there will always be someone out there that is stronger than you" with Beerus and Whis proving as actual examples. That's why them being more specific with "we are Universe 7 "etc seemed like foreshadowing in the sense that they expanded the DB world for the purpose of bringing in more adversaries easier in the future.
It can feel like a Finale in retrospect, but fandom reaction back then strikes me as what they were actually going for - a start.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by sintzu » Fri May 17, 2019 11:24 am

Michsi wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:06 am
I doubt they had any sort of concrete plans with the other universes when they were first mentioned in BoG, and I believe they threw out that information as means to get people hyped up about them. Them being more specific with "we are Universe 7 "etc seemed like foreshadowing in the sense that they expanded the DB world for the purpose of bringing in more adversaries easier in the future. It can feel like a Finale in retrospect, but fandom reaction back then strikes me as what they were actually going for - a start.
That's exactly what happened. Although it was seen as a starting point for something bigger, the way they've used the concept so far implies to me that they didn't plan exactly how they were going to use it. I say this because despite it being a massive concept, they haven't done that much with it as U7 is still the main focus of modern DB.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by ABED » Fri May 17, 2019 3:46 pm

Michsi wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:06 am
They could've left it more ambiguous with a line like "there will always be someone out there that is stronger than you" with Beerus and Whis proving as actual examples. That's why them being more specific with "we are Universe 7 "etc seemed like foreshadowing in the sense that they expanded the DB world for the purpose of bringing in more adversaries easier in the future.
But they've literally said just that back before the 21st TB. It's redundant. This is just concretizing that. It doesn't have to be foreshadowing of events we'll eventually see. It's simply a specific way of saying "the world is bigger than you thought." I don't think there's anything you can do with the multiverse concept. It's just another place to go or have some character come from.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Michsi » Fri May 17, 2019 5:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:46 pm
Michsi wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:06 am
They could've left it more ambiguous with a line like "there will always be someone out there that is stronger than you" with Beerus and Whis proving as actual examples. That's why them being more specific with "we are Universe 7 "etc seemed like foreshadowing in the sense that they expanded the DB world for the purpose of bringing in more adversaries easier in the future.
But they've literally said just that back before the 21st TB. It's redundant. This is just concretizing that. It doesn't have to be foreshadowing of events we'll eventually see. It's simply a specific way of saying "the world is bigger than you thought." I don't think there's anything you can do with the multiverse concept. It's just another place to go or have some character come from.

Yes, which was a loooong time ago by the time BoG happens, both in-universe and for fans. The 21 TB happened very early in story and Goku kept meeting stronger and stronger opponents after that, but by the end of the Boo Saga it felt like he had reached the top. It's fitting that they, in a way, revisit that message right as new horizons open up for him through Beerus and the other universes.

But revealing that there are other universes was a concrete piece of information, one that would inevitably leave people wanting to see more with those universes. They didn't involve them as much as you'd have expected, with them going back with Freeza for the next installment, but they left that door open for a reason. Again, I am basing this on how fans reacted to that line- everyone expected for DB to continue after that.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by ABED » Fri May 17, 2019 5:54 pm

Michsi wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:38 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 3:46 pm
Michsi wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:06 am
They could've left it more ambiguous with a line like "there will always be someone out there that is stronger than you" with Beerus and Whis proving as actual examples. That's why them being more specific with "we are Universe 7 "etc seemed like foreshadowing in the sense that they expanded the DB world for the purpose of bringing in more adversaries easier in the future.
But they've literally said just that back before the 21st TB. It's redundant. This is just concretizing that. It doesn't have to be foreshadowing of events we'll eventually see. It's simply a specific way of saying "the world is bigger than you thought." I don't think there's anything you can do with the multiverse concept. It's just another place to go or have some character come from.

Yes, which was a loooong time ago by the time BoG happens, both in-universe and for fans. The 21 TB happened very early in story and Goku kept meeting stronger and stronger opponents after that, but by the end of the Boo Saga it felt like he had reached the top. It's fitting that they, in a way, revisit that message right as new horizons open up for him through Beerus and the other universes.

But revealing that there are other universes was a concrete piece of information, one that would inevitably leave people wanting to see more with those universes. They didn't involve them as much as you'd have expected, with them going back with Freeza for the next installment, but they left that door open for a reason. Again, I am basing this on how fans reacted to that line- everyone expected for DB to continue after that.
So what if it wants them to see them? How is leaving people wanting more a bad thing? It's better than wishing the story overstayed its welcome. There is thematic closure for the story. I don't care how the fans react online. That's not important to whether it works as a definitive ending. It does. That might seem harsh, but I just don't care whether some fans expected it to go on. The plot threads are tied up. Goku's journey goes on, we just don't see it, but we don't have to. Angel ends on something of a cliffhanger, but not really. The whole point is that regardless of how it ends, you don't stop fighting. Thematically, it ties up Angel's journey well. Repeating a vague line has little power.
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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by Michsi » Fri May 17, 2019 6:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:54 pm
]So what if it wants them to see them? How is leaving people wanting more a bad thing? It's better than wishing the story overstayed its welcome. There is thematic closure for the story. I don't care how the fans react online. That's not important to whether it works as a definitive ending. It does. That might seem harsh, but I just don't care whether some fans expected it to go on. The plot threads are tied up. Goku's journey goes on, we just don't see it, but we don't have to. Angel ends on something of a cliffhanger, but not really. The whole point is that regardless of how it ends, you don't stop fighting. Thematically, it ties up Angel's journey well.
It means that line, and possibly BoG as a whole, was written and created for the purpose of going forward with the franchise and the overall reaction to it confirms that they succeeded with that. It didn't feel like a Finale to a lot of people at that time. Your feelings on the matter are your own.

The actual end of the manga also ties up everything neatly and also has that message of "Goku&co will surely have more adventures" but that actually does feel like a finale.

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Re: Dragon Ball should've ended at Cell

Post by ABED » Fri May 17, 2019 6:37 pm

It works as both. The best set ups work in the moment and not purely as a plant for a future payoff. We know it wasn't a finale and I don't think anyone here is arguing that it was, just that it works as one. This feels like a good ending and for the same exact reasons as the manga's finale. Also, why are my feelings on the matter my own and the same doesn't apply to everyone else who thought it was setting up something? Assuming it was an ending, why should they care if fans believed it was setting up future stories?
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