Characters you like but everyone else hates

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Bullza » Thu May 09, 2019 2:47 am

There aren't really many characters that "everyone hates".

Ribrianne, Pan and Giru are the only characters of any real significance who are heavily disliked aren't they? I can see why all of them are disliked. Pan is particular is an horrific character.

The closest I could come to giving an answer would be Chi-Chi who is alright and gets a lot of hate but that is kind of understandable.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu May 09, 2019 6:57 am

-GT Pan - she is my favourite character in franchise.
-Ribrianne - not really FAN of her, but she is one of the very few characters from DBS i liked
-Mr Satan - he sucked in Cell saga, but he is awesome since Buu saga
-Chichi - she is simply a good mother and wife Goku never deserved
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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by 90sDBZ » Thu May 09, 2019 7:09 am

Gotenks. He has a really cool design, gave us some great fight scenes, and I love his cocky attitude. It felt appropriate giving him the spotlight for awhile, as he basically acted how the target demographic would act if they had superpowers. He was really funny too. I love the scene were he has to pull out a piece of paper because he forgot the name of his next move.

In some ways he felt like a mini-Vegeta, except funnier and crazier. His insanity fit really well with all the crazy shit that had gone on in the Buu arc. The fact that Buu is a goofy sort of villain too made it even funnier.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Kataphrut » Thu May 09, 2019 7:52 am

Pan in GT exists as nothing but a screaming damsel in distress who regularly gets beat up, captured and subject to occasional creepy, uncomfortable scenes. I can't really "hate" her as a character, I just hate the creative decisions that led to her being used like that.

Chi Chi is similar- in DBZ and beyond, she's a gag character playing the role of "mean mom" that the little boys watching are meant to think is uncool for keeping the boys from their fun. The problem is when those little boys become "adult" fans who take her too seriously, calling her a "bitch" who "ruined Gohan." That's taking it too far and taking her character more seriously than intended. I mean come on, it's not like she was ever really successful at preventing them from fighting.

For me, the jigsaw-falling-into-place moment with Chi Chi was when I found out that she, like Goku, is written as a hick in Japanese. It makes so much more sense once you realise that's actually the type of character she is. You see a lot of debates about whether the English dub should give Goku a redneck accent equivalent to his Japanese portrayal, but you don't hear it as much with Chi Chi. Frankly, I think she needed it more.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu May 09, 2019 9:02 am

Grimlock wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:54 pm
Bardock.

Don't know if "hate" is the right word, though. More like "fed up". Seeing how Bardock is treated differently (not in many different places, it's only in Dragon Ball Online and Dragon Ball Minus/Dragon Ball Super: Broly that he's different, in everything else his personality is coherent; Episode of Bardock is a special case, where his personality is being changed) and the love goes massively to the old one, from the 1990 TV Special, people seem to be fed up with him, to the point of not wanting to see him again. He's still a great character, a badass nonetheless.
I can't speak for everybody, but as someone who is both "fed up" with the way Bardock's character has been treated and not wanting to see him again, I can tell you that while the latter is somewhat an effect of the former, the latter is not caused by a dislike of Bardock. Not wanting to see more Bardock is *because* I like him and want what's best for his story. And some stories are so complete and so final that there is absolutely no need to follow up. And in fact, in so doing does nothing but dilute the impact of what came before. I certainly would not want to see a sequel to Citizen Kane. I mean, where the hell else would you even go with that? Kane is dead. Bardock is dead. In both cases, their deaths define them and the stories they are in. In all but one case, bringing Bardock back means undoing that, which renders the Bardock Special as pointless as if Romeo and Juliet had lived happily ever after. And in that one exception, it means rewriting him and his story from scratch to the point that he might as well not even be the same character anymore.

Basically, I hate the mindset that getting more (insert thing here) is inherently better than nothing at all, and that not wanting more means you hate something. Because I would be so happy if Dragon Ball just ended entirely. Not because I hate Dragon Ball, but because I love Dragon Ball.
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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Jord » Thu May 09, 2019 10:55 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:02 am
Grimlock wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:54 pm
Bardock.

Don't know if "hate" is the right word, though. More like "fed up". Seeing how Bardock is treated differently (not in many different places, it's only in Dragon Ball Online and Dragon Ball Minus/Dragon Ball Super: Broly that he's different, in everything else his personality is coherent; Episode of Bardock is a special case, where his personality is being changed) and the love goes massively to the old one, from the 1990 TV Special, people seem to be fed up with him, to the point of not wanting to see him again. He's still a great character, a badass nonetheless.
I can't speak for everybody, but as someone who is both "fed up" with the way Bardock's character has been treated and not wanting to see him again, I can tell you that while the latter is somewhat an effect of the former, the latter is not caused by a dislike of Bardock. Not wanting to see more Bardock is *because* I like him and want what's best for his story. And some stories are so complete and so final that there is absolutely no need to follow up. And in fact, in so doing does nothing but dilute the impact of what came before. I certainly would not want to see a sequel to Citizen Kane. I mean, where the hell else would you even go with that? Kane is dead. Bardock is dead. In both cases, their deaths define them and the stories they are in. In all but one case, bringing Bardock back means undoing that, which renders the Bardock Special as pointless as if Romeo and Juliet had lived happily ever after. And in that one exception, it means rewriting him and his story from scratch to the point that he might as well not even be the same character anymore.

Basically, I hate the mindset that getting more (insert thing here) is inherently better than nothing at all, and that not wanting more means you hate something. Because I would be so happy if Dragon Ball just ended entirely. Not because I hate Dragon Ball, but because I love Dragon Ball.
Excellent point my friend and although I agree... it's a bit of a duel-edged thing. On one side it's cool to see previous characters again but the on the other side the kick quickly wears out it's welcome.

I loved seeing Pilaf for 2 episodes in GT and in BoG but after that I got annoyed by them fast during Super and it actually affects my opinion of the characters in OG DragonBall a bit.
Same goes for characters like Vegeto (who added nothing from his Z appearance except for a new hair color) and even Trunks (who got an even shittier future after the events of Super which makes his final episode in the Cell saga a bit more sad to watch)

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Grimlock » Thu May 09, 2019 11:29 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:02 am
I can't speak for everybody, but as someone who is both "fed up" with the way Bardock's character has been treated and not wanting to see him again, I can tell you that while the latter is somewhat an effect of the former, the latter is not caused by a dislike of Bardock. Not wanting to see more Bardock is *because* I like him and want what's best for his story. And some stories are so complete and so final that there is absolutely no need to follow up. And in fact, in so doing does nothing but dilute the impact of what came before. I certainly would not want to see a sequel to Citizen Kane. I mean, where the hell else would you even go with that? Kane is dead. Bardock is dead. In both cases, their deaths define them and the stories they are in. In all but one case, bringing Bardock back means undoing that, which renders the Bardock Special as pointless as if Romeo and Juliet had lived happily ever after. And in that one exception, it means rewriting him and his story from scratch to the point that he might as well not even be the same character anymore.

Basically, I hate the mindset that getting more (insert thing here) is inherently better than nothing at all, and that not wanting more means you hate something. Because I would be so happy if Dragon Ball just ended entirely. Not because I hate Dragon Ball, but because I love Dragon Ball.
I kinda see your point, but it's exactly there where we split apart. Because I like the character I want to see more of him. The thing is, you think that "see more = sequel" when that's not necessary. Pretty sure one can come up with interesting stuff by looking back at someone's life. See what came before, not necessarily after.

Of course, you'll have point if you reply saying that that's not what have been done to Bardock, to which I agree, everything after the TV Special was actually a follow-up. And while I can overlook Episode of Bardock, Dragon Ball Online actually managed to be a great follow-up to the character. That said, I wouldn't mind at all seeing the past of Bardock, especially now that we have Gine. And I want to see more of them both, develop them as a couple on-screen (not just through some words in an interview).

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri May 10, 2019 11:45 am

90sDBZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:09 am
Gotenks. He has a really cool design, gave us some great fight scenes, and I love his cocky attitude. It felt appropriate giving him the spotlight for awhile, as he basically acted how the target demographic would act if they had superpowers. He was really funny too. I love the scene were he has to pull out a piece of paper because he forgot the name of his next move.

In some ways he felt like a mini-Vegeta, except funnier and crazier. His insanity fit really well with all the crazy shit that had gone on in the Buu arc. The fact that Buu is a goofy sort of villain too made it even funnier.
Agreed. Gotenks was one of the highlights of the Buu saga for me.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by AnzuMazaki » Sat May 11, 2019 1:44 am

Yamcha.
TBH. I am surprised nobody brought him up yet.

Same can be said for Tenshinhan and Chaozu.

I also like Chichi, Goten and DBS Gohan as well.
The hate for them has blown up lately, and I do not like the "Goku is a bad dad" meme either.
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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by SSJGAffleck » Sat May 11, 2019 2:06 am

Probably Goten, Cauflia, and Kale
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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Kataphrut » Tue May 21, 2019 8:25 pm

This topic has become relevant again with the announcement of Ribrianne for XV2 and the response from the sad boy squad on Twitter. They're all very upset about it.

There are a lot of flags that come into criticism of female characters in terms of how to separate legitimate issues with execution, writing, portrayal, etc from good ol' sexism. Cipher brought up a good example of this regarding Ribrianne in some recent tweets. Basically when the amount of vitriol a character gets is not only excessive, but moreso than male characters with similar issues would get, you know there's a problem. Often it just comes down to the fact that they're not conventionally attractive. See also, Rose from The Last Jedi. I'm sure your grievances with her character were just constructive criticism, Star Wars fans. That's why you harassed the actress off Instagram. No other reason.

Another red flag is when female characters in wish-fulfilment fiction are derided for being "too powerful". Caulifla is the best example from Dragon Ball, but you could also include Captain Marvel and Rey, again from the new Star Wars trilogy. It's like, we're fine with all these super-powered martial artists and caped crusaders and samurai monks being "naturally gifted" or "training hard" to get where they are, but if a girl does it? Mmm, sorry, I'm going to have to see your workout regimen, your extended family tree and a cover letter with recommendations from three different referees. And if you don't produce it, we'll call you a "Mary Sue" and...hope your movies bomb at the box office I guess. By the way, how many millions did Captain Marvel make again?

So yeah, it's actually very easy to spot when criticism of female characters is rooted in sexism. Most of the wannabe boy critics aren't actually smart or subtle about hiding it. Meanwhile, spot the difference in how actual professional critics and a more mature audience in general has responded to the blunders with Daenerys in the last season of Game of Thrones. People are talking about how her arc was mishandled, botched themes, aspects beyond the superficial "she's annoying/overpowered". Compare that to how we talk about characters in the fucking "shonen anime" circle and it's like guys, just because we're adults obsessing over children's entertainment doesn't mean we have to act like children about it.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Nokra » Tue May 21, 2019 10:24 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:25 pm
This topic has become relevant again with the announcement of Ribrianne for XV2 and the response from the sad boy squad on Twitter. They're all very upset about it.

There are a lot of flags that come into criticism of female characters in terms of how to separate legitimate issues with execution, writing, portrayal, etc from good ol' sexism. Cipher brought up a good example of this regarding Ribrianne in some recent tweets. Basically when the amount of vitriol a character gets is not only excessive, but moreso than male characters with similar issues would get, you know there's a problem. Often it just comes down to the fact that they're not conventionally attractive. See also, Rose from The Last Jedi. I'm sure your grievances with her character were just constructive criticism, Star Wars fans. That's why you harassed the actress off Instagram. No other reason.

Another red flag is when female characters in wish-fulfilment fiction are derided for being "too powerful". Caulifla is the best example from Dragon Ball, but you could also include Captain Marvel and Rey, again from the new Star Wars trilogy. It's like, we're fine with all these super-powered martial artists and caped crusaders and samurai monks being "naturally gifted" or "training hard" to get where they are, but if a girl does it? Mmm, sorry, I'm going to have to see your workout regimen, your extended family tree and a cover letter with recommendations from three different referees. And if you don't produce it, we'll call you a "Mary Sue" and...hope your movies bomb at the box office I guess. By the way, how many millions did Captain Marvel make again?

So yeah, it's actually very easy to spot when criticism of female characters is rooted in sexism. Most of the wannabe boy critics aren't actually smart or subtle about hiding it. Meanwhile, spot the difference in how actual professional critics and a more mature audience in general has responded to the blunders with Daenerys in the last season of Game of Thrones. People are talking about how her arc was mishandled, botched themes, aspects beyond the superficial "she's annoying/overpowered". Compare that to how we talk about characters in the fucking "shonen anime" circle and it's like guys, just because we're adults obsessing over children's entertainment doesn't mean we have to act like children about it.
But...isn't Rey legitimately a mary sue? Caulifla is just a product of typical bad dragonball writing/power scaling but Rey seems like an actual mary sue.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Kataphrut » Wed May 22, 2019 3:37 am

Nokra wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:24 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:25 pm
This topic has become relevant again with the announcement of Ribrianne for XV2 and the response from the sad boy squad on Twitter. They're all very upset about it.

There are a lot of flags that come into criticism of female characters in terms of how to separate legitimate issues with execution, writing, portrayal, etc from good ol' sexism. Cipher brought up a good example of this regarding Ribrianne in some recent tweets. Basically when the amount of vitriol a character gets is not only excessive, but moreso than male characters with similar issues would get, you know there's a problem. Often it just comes down to the fact that they're not conventionally attractive. See also, Rose from The Last Jedi. I'm sure your grievances with her character were just constructive criticism, Star Wars fans. That's why you harassed the actress off Instagram. No other reason.

Another red flag is when female characters in wish-fulfilment fiction are derided for being "too powerful". Caulifla is the best example from Dragon Ball, but you could also include Captain Marvel and Rey, again from the new Star Wars trilogy. It's like, we're fine with all these super-powered martial artists and caped crusaders and samurai monks being "naturally gifted" or "training hard" to get where they are, but if a girl does it? Mmm, sorry, I'm going to have to see your workout regimen, your extended family tree and a cover letter with recommendations from three different referees. And if you don't produce it, we'll call you a "Mary Sue" and...hope your movies bomb at the box office I guess. By the way, how many millions did Captain Marvel make again?

So yeah, it's actually very easy to spot when criticism of female characters is rooted in sexism. Most of the wannabe boy critics aren't actually smart or subtle about hiding it. Meanwhile, spot the difference in how actual professional critics and a more mature audience in general has responded to the blunders with Daenerys in the last season of Game of Thrones. People are talking about how her arc was mishandled, botched themes, aspects beyond the superficial "she's annoying/overpowered". Compare that to how we talk about characters in the fucking "shonen anime" circle and it's like guys, just because we're adults obsessing over children's entertainment doesn't mean we have to act like children about it.
But...isn't Rey legitimately a mary sue? Caulifla is just a product of typical bad dragonball writing/power scaling but Rey seems like an actual mary sue.
Nothing is "legitimately" a Mary Sue because Mary Sue is a meaningless internet buzzword used to deride the exact type of female wish-fulfillment characters I mentioned. In Rey's case people only call her that because she can lift rocks real good and do the mind-trick that one time. It's focusing on the superficial elements of genre fiction instead of the text- Luke even spells out to her (and the audience) that lifting rocks is not what being a good Jedi is about. If you consider a "Mary Sue" as a character with no flaws, then Rey still doesn't qualify because she makes mistakes, most notably rushing off to get captured by Kylo Ren in a futile move to try and redeem him.

Even in Dragon Ball where a characters' strength and powers are more important, Caulifla also doesn't count because like Rey, she's treated as a rookie in the story. Sure, she's "strong enough" to unlock SS2, but when people are throwing around Gods and Blues and Ultra Instincts, that doesn't mean much. Her entire arc with Goku is about making mistakes and learning from them to become a better fighter. She never poses a threat to anyone until Kefla, who combines the brokenness of potara fusion with Kale. And after DBS: Broly, nobody is ever allowed to call her overpowered again.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by ABED » Wed May 22, 2019 5:36 am

I don't think it's a meaningless buzzword. It's certainly thrown around way too easily, though. And no, Rey isn't a Mary Sue. She could fight Kylo Ren despite her in experience because she was already adept with a weapon and she was fighting an injured man. She could do the Jedi Mind trick because she's a Star Wars fan. She can lift rocks with the force because she's a Star Wars fan. She's hardly doing anything particularly impressive when she employs the force. The new trilogy seems to be this weird meta-narrative/commentary about Star Wars and its fandom.

Mary Sue is a legit concept but it's mostly reserved for fan fiction.
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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed May 22, 2019 7:43 am

Rey is not overpowered. If anything, Kylo Ren is underpowered. TBH he's a pathetic villain, and when they had him kill off Snoke, who actually came across as powerful and menacing, I was so pissed.

Caulifla wasn't overpowered either. Kefla might have been a bit overpowered, but she makes up for it by contributing to one of the best fight scenes in the ToP arc.

Ribrianne also wasn't overpowered. She was defeated too easily IMO.

If anyone in the ToP was overpowered, it was Jiren.
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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by ABED » Wed May 22, 2019 7:51 am

Haha, funny, because killing Snoke is one of my favorite moments. What makes a villain interesting is not their power.

And the idea of a Mary/Gary Stu isn't simply a function of how powerful they are or how talented they are. It's how perfect they are in relation to other characters. It came about as a criticism of bad fanfic writers (as if there's any other kind) who create a perfect character whose sole function basically consists of constantly upstaging the main character(s).
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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Nokra » Wed May 22, 2019 9:24 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:37 am
Nokra wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:24 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:25 pm
This topic has become relevant again with the announcement of Ribrianne for XV2 and the response from the sad boy squad on Twitter. They're all very upset about it.

There are a lot of flags that come into criticism of female characters in terms of how to separate legitimate issues with execution, writing, portrayal, etc from good ol' sexism. Cipher brought up a good example of this regarding Ribrianne in some recent tweets. Basically when the amount of vitriol a character gets is not only excessive, but moreso than male characters with similar issues would get, you know there's a problem. Often it just comes down to the fact that they're not conventionally attractive. See also, Rose from The Last Jedi. I'm sure your grievances with her character were just constructive criticism, Star Wars fans. That's why you harassed the actress off Instagram. No other reason.

Another red flag is when female characters in wish-fulfilment fiction are derided for being "too powerful". Caulifla is the best example from Dragon Ball, but you could also include Captain Marvel and Rey, again from the new Star Wars trilogy. It's like, we're fine with all these super-powered martial artists and caped crusaders and samurai monks being "naturally gifted" or "training hard" to get where they are, but if a girl does it? Mmm, sorry, I'm going to have to see your workout regimen, your extended family tree and a cover letter with recommendations from three different referees. And if you don't produce it, we'll call you a "Mary Sue" and...hope your movies bomb at the box office I guess. By the way, how many millions did Captain Marvel make again?

So yeah, it's actually very easy to spot when criticism of female characters is rooted in sexism. Most of the wannabe boy critics aren't actually smart or subtle about hiding it. Meanwhile, spot the difference in how actual professional critics and a more mature audience in general has responded to the blunders with Daenerys in the last season of Game of Thrones. People are talking about how her arc was mishandled, botched themes, aspects beyond the superficial "she's annoying/overpowered". Compare that to how we talk about characters in the fucking "shonen anime" circle and it's like guys, just because we're adults obsessing over children's entertainment doesn't mean we have to act like children about it.
But...isn't Rey legitimately a mary sue? Caulifla is just a product of typical bad dragonball writing/power scaling but Rey seems like an actual mary sue.
Nothing is "legitimately" a Mary Sue because Mary Sue is a meaningless internet buzzword used to deride the exact type of female wish-fulfillment characters I mentioned. In Rey's case people only call her that because she can lift rocks real good and do the mind-trick that one time. It's focusing on the superficial elements of genre fiction instead of the text- Luke even spells out to her (and the audience) that lifting rocks is not what being a good Jedi is about. If you consider a "Mary Sue" as a character with no flaws, then Rey still doesn't qualify because she makes mistakes, most notably rushing off to get captured by Kylo Ren in a futile move to try and redeem him.

Even in Dragon Ball where a characters' strength and powers are more important, Caulifla also doesn't count because like Rey, she's treated as a rookie in the story. Sure, she's "strong enough" to unlock SS2, but when people are throwing around Gods and Blues and Ultra Instincts, that doesn't mean much. Her entire arc with Goku is about making mistakes and learning from them to become a better fighter. She never poses a threat to anyone until Kefla, who combines the brokenness of potara fusion with Kale. And after DBS: Broly, nobody is ever allowed to call her overpowered again.
Idk she seems like a mary sue to me. And caulifa is just a badly written character in general along with her lesbian interest kale. trunks was also turned into a mary sue character and ruined entirely in the black arc so there's that.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by DestructoDisc » Wed May 22, 2019 10:06 am

Wait, people are complaining about Ribrianne being added to Xenoverse 2? I get that she wasn't the best character ever, but you have to admit that she had a pretty good moveset. She had lots of attacks both in the anime and in the manga.

To stay on topic though, I actually really liked the Pilaf Gang in Super, and their episode with baby Pan was one of my favorites. Wish Pilaf and Shu had more of a role in the Future Trunks arc though.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed May 22, 2019 2:10 pm

I'm not sure who I like that everyone hates, but I can think of an opposite case such as Cooler. Everyone likes him, but I really don't care for him.

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Re: Characters you like but everyone else hates

Post by Raimundo » Wed May 22, 2019 10:13 pm

Jiren or Cauli qualify to an extent. Both have vocal hatedomes but are overall pretty popular characters

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