Does Toriyama have attachment to his works?

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SaiyanTarzan
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Does Toriyama have attachment to his works?

Post by SaiyanTarzan » Thu May 16, 2019 9:06 am

Do you think Toriyama has ever been attached to any piece of work of his? I guess the question of him being lazy isn't exactly what I mean to ask but rather if he cares about specific works of his. He's released many manga throughout the years from Slump to Neko Majin, I remember seeing reading in an interview I don't remember when where he said Jaco is his favorite work. Toriyama has gone on record I believe saying that he isn't particularly attached to Dragon Ball, I mean sure he cared when DBE was horrible but I mean to say something he's deeply passionate and proud of. Every artist from people who draw to people who write has a work they're particularly attached to and see as their "baby", I'm curious if Tori has ever gone on record mentioning a work he's particularly really proud of.
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by ABED » Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 am

Based on what I've read, since he's clearly not one of these creators that has antipathy for the things he creates, I can say with some confidence that he comes off as someone who does what he enjoys but isn't obsessive about the details of his world. He's a talented manga artist and author who enjoyed his work and met an incredibly ambitious weekly deadline. I think he has an affinity for his creations, but he's not as concerned about the details of his continuity as his fans. He's a pantser, but that doesn't make him lazy.
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by FlpShimizu » Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 am

I remember an interview where he said that other people took Dragon Ball to directions he disagreed with. Then, he concluded saying that if he was gonna get butthurt about other people doing it, he should just do it himself. Super was the result.

Those weren't exactly his words obviously, but it sounded like he does give a shit. Sadly, I have no idea where's this interview. Hopefully someone smarter than me can find it.
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by KBABZ » Thu May 16, 2019 9:35 am

FlpShimizu wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 am
I remember an interview where he said that other people took Dragon Ball to directions he disagreed with. Then, he concluded saying that if he was gonna get butthurt about other people doing it, he should just do it himself. Super was the result.

Those weren't exactly his words obviously, but it sounded like he does give a shit. Sadly, I have no idea where's this interview. Hopefully someone smarter than me can find it.
I'm sure it's in the interview archives somewhere! But the context of it was in relation to Evolution, the live-action movie that as we all know went in a VERY different direction and art style. From what I understand, by the time Toriyama got to the end of the Buu arc he was quite over Dragon Ball and fan demand wasn't enough to keep him going with it, and to this day he refuses to put himself under the strict deadline imposed by the manga, but Evolution motivated him to become more involved in future adaptations and continuations of his work. But the sheer workload he had to do in the original run is why he's more in an ideas/overseer type of role now, with the odd contribution to things like GT, new covers and spine art, video game characters and whatnot, plus of course whatever his contributions are for Super.

Toriyama overall I don't think is capital-L Lazy, but he would procrastinate on the manga, likely because he found the schedule tough and wanted some time off where he could find it. He's also, as ABED explained, very much a "in the now" type of writer. Launch was dropped not because he ran out of ideas for her, but because the Saiyan arc didn't demand her presence and so she wasn't used, and this kept on for subsequent arcs. Power Levels fall into this category too: they're helpful in setting up expectations before a fight begins and that's it; the specifics aren't important to him, which is how we got the original discrepancy that Super Saiyan was a x10 multiplier that was fixed in later editions, as well as the usual amounts of seemingly randomly-chosen numbers that give hardcore-casual western fans aneurysms (to say nothing of time travel!).

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by SaiyanTarzan » Thu May 16, 2019 9:44 am

KBABZ wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:35 am
FlpShimizu wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 am
I remember an interview where he said that other people took Dragon Ball to directions he disagreed with. Then, he concluded saying that if he was gonna get butthurt about other people doing it, he should just do it himself. Super was the result.

Those weren't exactly his words obviously, but it sounded like he does give a shit. Sadly, I have no idea where's this interview. Hopefully someone smarter than me can find it.
I'm sure it's in the interview archives somewhere! But the context of it was in relation to Evolution, the live-action movie that as we all know went in a VERY different direction and art style. From what I understand, by the time Toriyama got to the end of the Buu arc he was quite over Dragon Ball and fan demand wasn't enough to keep him going with it, and to this day he refuses to put himself under the strict deadline imposed by the manga, but Evolution motivated him to become more involved in future adaptations and continuations of his work. But the sheer workload he had to do in the original run is why he's more in an ideas/overseer type of role now, with the odd contribution to things like GT, new covers and spine art, video game characters and whatnot, plus of course whatever his contributions are for Super.

Toriyama overall I don't think is capital-L Lazy, but he would procrastinate on the manga, likely because he found the schedule tough and wanted some time off where he could find it. He's also, as ABED explained, very much a "in the now" type of writer. Launch was dropped not because he ran out of ideas for her, but because the Saiyan arc didn't demand her presence and so she wasn't used, and this kept on for subsequent arcs. Power Levels fall into this category too: they're helpful in setting up expectations before a fight begins and that's it; the specifics aren't important to him, which is how we got the original discrepancy that Super Saiyan was a x10 multiplier that was fixed in later editions, as well as the usual amounts of seemingly randomly-chosen numbers that give hardcore-casual western fans aneurysms (to say nothing of time travel!).
I guess that simplistic approach is what makes Tori unique when compared with Toyotaro. Toyotaro seems to be aware of the details which I guess is more consistent for the fans since hell he is a fan himself but it loses the magic that Toriyama puts in Dragon Ball which is thinking up something new every week as was with the original manga, not getting himself bogged in the details which of course leads to inconsistency but it keeps things fresh since he gets bored pretty quickly it seems.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by KBABZ » Thu May 16, 2019 10:17 am

SaiyanTarzan wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:44 am
I guess that simplistic approach is what makes Tori unique when compared with Toyotaro. Toyotaro seems to be aware of the details which I guess is more consistent for the fans since hell he is a fan himself but it loses the magic that Toriyama puts in Dragon Ball which is thinking up something new every week as was with the original manga, not getting himself bogged in the details which of course leads to inconsistency but it keeps things fresh since he gets bored pretty quickly it seems.
I noticed that as well, that fans of Toriyama's work tend to remember details much better than the man himself, and that carries over into the work that's influenced by him. Oda I think is a particularly famous example of REALLY fleshing out the world and taking continuity incredibly seriously, far more than Toriyama ever did or most likely does now.

I came across this myself when talking with Brian Allgeier, the Creative Director of the Ratchet & Clank series when it was on PS3. He said that fans often have a much more encyclopedic knowledge of their own games because for the devs, when the game comes out they're already working on the next project and thinking about that. Unless you spend a deep amount of time on it, like Tolkein or R.R. Martin, you're not going to think about those sorts of details, which the manga schedule certainly does not encourage.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu May 16, 2019 10:31 am

A site:kanzenshuu.com/translations lazy search gives seven results of Toriyama self-describing himself as lazy (from stuff that we happen to have translated and published thus far that's tangentially related to Dragon Ball, anyway).

And while I cite/explain that, I also think it would be incredibly disingenuous/misguided to use that as any conclusive/definitive "evidence" of anything in particular. For whatever truth may be in there (and there almost certainly is), it's also standard humble, self-defeating, self-deprecating talk.

Simply put, you don't have massive two massive hits that run for years one after the other like that (arguably genre-defining, worldwide successes at that) while being "lazy". There's obviously care and drive underneath.

The quote in question about taking back some control comes from his introduction to 2016's "Super History Book" where he says:
I had put Dragon Ball behind me, but seeing how much that live-action film ticked me off, and how I revised that script for the anime movie and complained about the quality of the TV anime, I suppose somewhere along the line it's become a series I like too much to ever leave alone.
This is definitely in contrast to some of the things he's said over the last two decades or so, where he talks about moving on and not feeling like he ever wanted to work on the series again. People are allowed to change their opinion, though, authors included. It's not surprising to see him move on from being totally burnt-out from the weekly serialization grind to having some time away and coming back with a renewed appreciation and focus and sense of ownership. Everyone needs a break.
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by TrunksTrevelyan0064 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:55 am

If I didn't know anything about Akira Toriyama or his work and I quickly browsed through a couple of Dragon Ball volumes, never in a million years would I assume the creator was lazy. The artwork and panel layouts are very clearly the work of a master.

As someone who is making a comic and can barely produce one amateur-level page a week, I can't even begin to imagine what it takes to draw a full chapter every week for over a decade. From what I understand, manga authors operate on an insane, almost 24/7 schedule - anyone who manages to produce high quality work under such circumstances for any extended period of time can never be called lazy.
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by Yosheets » Thu May 16, 2019 12:22 pm

No. Even for a Manga author, Toriyama was faithful to his work. He wrote and drew Dragon Ball without taking any breaks at all, something you don't see from current Manga authors.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 16, 2019 1:06 pm

Lazy is not the word I'd pick because I never felt that way about him while reading the manga which is so precise and well done that you can't stop reading it.
But IMO he is not truly in love with his work, not like us, the fans or even Toyo. If DB is his kid, then he doesn't know his kid's best friends' name or what kind of clothes he likes to wear or what he has in his closet. He forgot about Goten, literally the cutest and latest addition to the Z-senshi, forgot also about another design of his: Broly, the most striking character image-wise from the original run. Lol he sounds like the father of a japanese friend of mine, and a little like Homer Simpson.

Creatively speaking he is a beast but we could argue about how fresh were most of his ideas in Super. Rehashing villains does not speak greatly on his behave no matter how they were executed those ideas.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by ruler9871 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:12 pm

A lot of the narrative elements in the franchise) stem from Toriyama being lazy or convenient (Goku's core characterization, SSJ's hair color, many of the abilities like flight, much of the character design, tails disappearing after the Saiyan arc, etc.) according to the man himself.
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Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu May 16, 2019 1:14 pm

With the schedule he had to work for well over a decade he's damn well earned it.
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by SaiyanTarzan » Thu May 16, 2019 3:29 pm

I know Tori is a hard worker, a bit of a procrastinator but I guess I meant lazy in the way he doesn't have much attachment to his work, I mean definitely he'd get burnt out doing one series for so long but I guess it's more or less my expectations of creatives. You see like I've written things, I love to write i mean I never finish since it's difficult for me to really sit down and stick to one idea, so you can see why id admire that conviction but when i write i write with that mindset that's it's my "baby" so to speak no matter how small it may be and I'm more so curious if Tori ever had that kind of attachment to his work.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by Gligarman » Thu May 16, 2019 4:57 pm

The dude had two massive back-to-back hits that he had to produce weekly for nearly 15 years while doing freelance illustration, producing one-shots, and designing all of the Dragon Quest characters. Also he started all of this IN HIS 20's!! So no, he's not lazy. He's busy.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by KBABZ » Thu May 16, 2019 6:36 pm

Yosheets wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:22 pm
No. Even for a Manga author, Toriyama was faithful to his work. He wrote and drew Dragon Ball without taking any breaks at all, something you don't see from current Manga authors.
There were spots where he wouldn't put out a new chapter for one or two weeks, and that's not counting Christmas breaks. But yeah, effectively it was continuous, especially when you take Dr. Slump into account.

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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by ABED » Thu May 16, 2019 7:05 pm

I gotta wonder at what point he went from working such an ambitious schedule because he had to in order to make a living to working an ambitious schedule due to momentum. I'd imagine that after DB's mega success he could call his own shots and if he wanted a less demanding schedule he might have been able to make some sort of deal. Of course I don't know and this is me speculating.
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu May 16, 2019 7:13 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:12 pm
A lot of the narrative elements in the franchise) stem from Toriyama being lazy or convenient (Goku's core characterization, SSJ's hair color, many of the abilities like flight, much of the character design, tails disappearing after the Saiyan arc, etc.) according to the man himself.
wasn't SSJ hair color being white or whatever a favor for his editor so he wouldn't have to color ?
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by ABED » Thu May 16, 2019 7:16 pm

How is Goku's core characterization a function of Toriyama's supposed laziness?
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:58 pm

Not only did Toriyama make two back-to-back culturally significant, landscape redefining, standard and trend setting magnum opuses that were trail-blazing phenomenons (where even some of the most gifted artists out there usually only have just the one in them), not only did he do this largely in his 20s and 30s, AND not only did he balance a 15 year long weekly deadline for both works while also:

- balancing doing fairly regular consulting & production work for both Slump and DB's respective anime series (character art and outlines for original concepts for anime filler, video games, and the like, as well as some level of input in things like the anime's voice casting and so on)

- doing press interviews and media tours

- doing various OTHER smaller manga and miscellaneous media side projects simultaneously alongside his regular Slump & DB work (Pink, Lady Red, Go! Go! Ackman, design work for Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger, Dub & Peter, Cashman, etc)

- AND raising a family and somewhere in all this having, you know, a personal life and time to himself and whatnot...

...but he managed to do all of this for 15 years by and large while missing the barest fucking minimum of deadlines week to week.

Barely. Any. Missed. Deadlines. Every. Single. Week. For over a decade+. While balancing and juggling ALL of the above other professional and personal life obligations.

Let's see almost ANYONE ELSE try attempting THAT kind of workload for THAT length of time, and still come out the other side with their sanity intact. Hell, look at the fucking Western superhero comic book industry and see what kind work ethic most average U.S. superhero comic artists from the past maybe 25 or so years tend to generally put forward (where deadlines being wildly missed by MONTHS aren't just the norm, its out and out EXPECTED in many cases).

If you think that ANY human being who can manage THAT Herculean workload day in, day out for THAT gargantuan of a chunk of their adult life (while maintaining IMMACULATE overall quality control of their work throughout, AND having it be so damn good and creatively vital that it sets the popular culture of the entire planet ablaze while they're at it) is somehow "lazy" simply because what... they made an absurdly microscopic continuity gaffe somewhere on page 3 of Chapter 398, Volume 34 that particularly triggers some random fanboy's OCD?

Or because somehow, after 15 years total of maintaining this insane day to day grind of a workload before hitting maximum burnout, he doesn't demonstrate sufficient enough giddy enthusiasm in some interview he gave circa 1998 or 2002 or whenever for the liking of some 15 year old kid halfway across the Pacific who maybe just got into DB a couple of years ago sometime in 2015/2016?

In light of what has been more than well documented public knowledge about the behind-the-scenes makings of DB for literally *decades* now, the whole basic premise behind the the entire "Toriyama is lazy" sentiment (which has been something of a recurring meme in Western fandom for quite some time now) is and has always been simply BEYOND asinine and moronic just on its face, and generally seems to come about from people who either have ZERO capacity to place themselves in another human being's shoes for five seconds, or have absolutely NO fucking concept whatsoever of the reality surrounding how much gobsmackingly insane amounts of sheer knuckle-grinding, brain melting hard work goes into such a great majority of major works of popular media (particularly within the realm of comic books and animation) on a day to day, minute by minute level... or maybe some combination of the two.

To put this particular shoe on a totally different and opposing foot entirely for a second here: I've made my own views on both One Piece and the... "artistic talents" such as they are of Eichiro Oda more than amply well known around these parts throughout the years. I might think the guy's art style is eyeball-bleedingly ugly and gaudy as all sin, I may think that his entire creative approach to his work and to the emotional tonality of his characters and overall narrative is somewhere on the rough level of a wildly bi-polar manic depressive who's been kept away from their meds for far, far too long: I may have less than ZERO respect for the dude as an artist on ANY NUMBER of different levels.

What I'd NEVER, EVER, in a BAZILLION years would say about him however is that Oda (who's general weekly workload is VERY much on a comparable scope to what Toriyama endured, at least from what I understand as even a total and utter non-fan of OP) is anything even REMOTELY approaching "lazy" or is anywhere within lightyears of it. Anyone who maintains THAT kind of ridiculous workload as he does for THIS long now (longer than even Toriyama at this point, which is just fucking nuts in itself): doesn't matter HOW much I think he and his work sucks ass, the dude is CLEARLY the polar diametric fucking opposite of lazy as just a self-evident stone-cold fact of reality.

You can dislike an artist and his work, you can disagree (viscerally even) on any number of different levels with their particular creative choices or even general approach to their work: but that is a TOTALLY different animal entirely from what their basic work ethic and overall dedication to their art happens to be.

Are there genuinely lazy artists out there? Even successful ones? Absolutely, no question there are. Do those artists generally have what it takes to keep up with a major mainstream Japanese manga publication's notoriously taxing, demanding schedules and overall workloads, particularly when it pertains to a blockbuster successful one (much less TWO) that have other satellite media surrounding them that often demands some degree or other of the creator's attention? And to not only keep up with it, but do so for 15 solid fucking years without missing almost a SINGLE beat?

Broadly speaking: hell fucking no.

We can debate the subjective merits of Toriyama's art and overall style and creative decisions: all of that is totally valid and perfectly fair game. What simply CANNOT be denied on just an outright self-evident, matter-of-fact basis though is that the guy was in NO WAY whatsoever fundamentally lacking in long term dedication to his craft, and that this is someone who displayed (at least for the vast bulk of the 1980s and 90s) what can only be described as an almost superhuman level of tireless work ethic while maintaining outstanding levels of raw technical quality and constant reinvention and evolution to his work all the while.

But no: Trunks cited the wrong Jinzoningen number designations that one time in the original printing of Chapter 335, and Trunks had the wrong hair for a single panel in Chapter 334. How the fuck could Toriyama display such amateurish carelessness? And why wouldn't he just tell us what Gohan's power level was when he fought Dabura that one time, or tell the audience what SSJ level he was at? Now the whole series narrative is totally fucking broken and ruined because I can't maintain any consistency with my made-up Power Level flowchart!

Lazy fucking hack this guy is, amirite? :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Is Toriyama lazy?

Post by ABED » Thu May 16, 2019 8:23 pm

If you want something done, ask a busy person.
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