When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

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When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Nokra » Fri May 17, 2019 9:02 pm

I believe it became a joke in the Android arc when random earth created machines were somehow able to be on par/stronger than "the form not seen in 1000 years". Especially after 18 humiliated Vegeta (which was great since I hate Android arc Vegeta) it all went downhill from there and the form was no longer "legendary".

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 17, 2019 9:21 pm

When it made them look like Aryan supermen

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by TheOverlyMadHatter » Sat May 18, 2019 2:52 am

As soon as the concept of anyone but Goku becoming a Super Saiyan was introduced. Of course, it's understandable it'd be difficult to keep anyone that isn't Goku relevant without this powerup,, so I guess making the Cell arc Saiyans reach the transformation made things easier to write. People point to Super's infamous "tingly back" as what cheapens the Super Saiyan transformation, but Goten and Trunks being able to use it nonchalantly is mildly amusing for the duration of the gag... and then you realize how much of a joke the transformation itself has become.
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When it made them look like Aryan supermen
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by emperior » Sat May 18, 2019 3:40 am

When Goten and Trunks achieved it that easily it already felt like a very easy transformation to do, but we also have to consider those are sons of Goku and Vegeta and I didn’t need Toriyama’s S-Cells explanation to understand that it seems like Saiyans do indeed inherit strength from their parents.

I feel like it has become somewhat of a joke ever since Cabba and then Caulifla and Kale too achieved it, as it’s been shown that even though it isn’t super easy to achieve, it still is fundamentally when very strong Saiyans put their minds into it. The tingly back thing isn’t offensive to me because it’s related to real martial arts chi concepts/ideas/theories and whatnot so it actually helps connecting the transformations to martial arts stuff.

It’s also expected from a serie like Dragon Ball to treat what was once something incredible as more of a joke as stronger opponents are introduced. The same happened with the Kamehameha at the beginning of it.

Also it seems that nowadays the biggest deal for Saiyans is the God stuff, which no one else besides Goku and Vegeta has been shown to achieve so far.
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat May 18, 2019 6:40 am

Future Trunks having it was already a bad sign as we knew that he is Vegeta's son which made it more than obvious that Vegeta will achieve this form as well. Things were getting only worse with Gohan and then Goten and Trunks in Buu saga. Then we have Super where random saiyans achieve this form out of nowhere (actually out of tingly back). If it's worse or better than Goten and Trunks is matter of discussion. GT kinda toned it down so Pan didn't turn SSJ (it would still make sense more than Goten/Trunks), but Goku Jr achieved it in tv special. Luckily they went original with it because he didn't even remember that he transformed so it was random transformation that he still couldn't control yet. But he mastered it anyway as seen in last episode.
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat May 18, 2019 7:38 am

Something is legendary due to its rareness. But once it starts getting commonplace, it's not rare anymore, but as it's a Saiyan fighting trait that doesn't really make it any less special IMO.

I think it became a joke when the levels started being added to it (SSJ 2,3, God, etc).
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat May 18, 2019 9:57 am

When Toriyama realized, "oh crud, I still have to keep the series going".

I mean, it was literally played for laughs when both Goten and Trunks transformed, so probably then?
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat May 18, 2019 10:27 am

It became a joke with Trunks and Goten but then even more so with the U6 Saiyans

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by sintzu » Sat May 18, 2019 10:59 am

When Goten and Trunks got it. I think it would've been better to keep them in base and just have Gotenks be the one who can use it.
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 18, 2019 11:21 am

The usual answer would be "Goten and Trunks". But I've come to learn to accept that, especially after the release of Dragon Ball Online, where 216 years after the manga, the descendants of Goku and Vegeta were still able to transform. If they can do it, then so can Goten, Trunks, Bra and Pan.

We need to see the circumstances too: many Saiyans would die in battle; they didn't have a lot of mentors to keep training whenever they want. A certain level of power is required, but emotion is the key to achieve it, something not all Saiyans had, so there's that too. It's not like whenever a partner would die the other Saiyan would feel rage and such.

And then there are the Universe 6 Saiyans, if they "easily" transformed, that can only mean that they already surpassed the level that the Universe 7 Saiyans reached. But couldn't transform due to lack of emotion, that was taught by Vegeta eventually.

I know people want to make the Super Saiyan transformation to be our equivalent of humans that have a high IQ, not everyone is a Hawking or an Einstein, which makes intelligence be something "out of this world", something not everyone can have it, but does the Super Saiyan form really need to be treated like that? It is just as inherent to Saiyans as intelligence is to humans. But unlike intelligence, which, well... There's no much we can do to alter it, there are ways to get the Super Saiyan form.
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Shintoki » Sat May 18, 2019 1:27 pm

when it became legends instead of a legend. or when Goku was retconned out as the first user of the golden super form.

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 18, 2019 1:39 pm

But Goku was never the first, otherwise there wouldn't be a legend to begin with.
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Lucky_Deity » Sat May 18, 2019 1:40 pm

Though a lot of characters have it now and it was supposed to be a legendary transformation, on the grand scale of things, very few Saiyans of the entire race have actually achieved it and the majority are the kids of Goku and Vegeta who, apart from inheriting it from their parents (at least, that's what I believe anyway, correct me if I'm wrong or if that's been confirmed), being Human-Saiyan Hybrids give them much more potential than full-blooded Saiyans.
Outside of Goku and Vegeta's family, only one Saiyan currently alive in Universe 7 can achieve Super Saiyan, that being Broly, making not counting the kids, only 3 Saiyans from different family lines have achieved the transformation, the same as Universe 6, with that being Cabba, Caulifla and Kale.
So, to me, I don't think it's to bad and I'm not counting non-canon material not in the main series, so Bardock, Raditz, Nappa, Cunber, Goku Jr., Vegeta Jr. etc., getting the Super Saiyan transformation, isn't included.

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Apslup » Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Super Saiyans started to lose their signifcants when more people got the form, but at least all of the Super Saiyans in Cell/Androids Saga earned them:
Vegeta trained constantly for years in harsh conditions to the point where he had a mental breakdown.
Goku had 2 of his best friend murdered and the murderer threatened to murder his son
Trunks had his mentor (one of the two people he loved most) murdered by the duo that made his life a living hell.
Gohan had to train hard in the Time Chamber and had a full on epiphany before he went Super Saiyan.

However, basically straight afterwards you see a 7 year old and an 8 year old gain this legendary form without experiencing any struggles or hardship (especially in Trunks' case) to gain it. There wasn't even a clever way of explaining it, they just got them handed to them on a silver platter. It made Super Saiyans look like a joke and made it lose the signifcants that it originally had.

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Shintoki » Sat May 18, 2019 6:16 pm

Apslup wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 pm
Super Saiyans started to lose their signifcants when more people got the form, but at least all of the Super Saiyans in Cell/Androids Saga earned them:
Vegeta trained constantly for years in harsh conditions to the point where he had a mental breakdown.
Goku had 2 of his best friend murdered and the murderer threatened to murder his son
Trunks had his mentor (one of the two people he loved most) murdered by the duo that made his life a living hell.
Gohan had to train hard in the Time Chamber and had a full on epiphany before he went Super Saiyan.

However, basically straight afterwards you see a 7 year old and an 8 year old gain this legendary form without experiencing any struggles or hardship (especially in Trunks' case) to gain it. There wasn't even a clever way of explaining it, they just got them handed to them on a silver platter. It made Super Saiyans look like a joke and made it lose the signifcants that it originally had.
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by sintzu » Sat May 18, 2019 6:37 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:16 pm
Apslup wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 pm
However, basically straight afterwards you see a 7 year old and an 8 year old gain this legendary form without experiencing any struggles or hardship (especially in Trunks' case) to gain it. There wasn't even a clever way of explaining it, they just got them handed to them on a silver platter. It made Super Saiyans look like a joke and made it lose the signifcants that it originally had.
toriyama lesson for the day is: S-cells, high level of Power, and a Pure heart!.

that's all you need to Unlock the legendary super saiyan!
The common way fans explained it before was that Goten and Trunks were conceived when Goku and Vegeta had it so they passed it down to them. I personally would take that idea over Toriyama's any day of the week.
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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat May 18, 2019 8:18 pm

sintzu wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:37 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:16 pm
Apslup wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 pm
However, basically straight afterwards you see a 7 year old and an 8 year old gain this legendary form without experiencing any struggles or hardship (especially in Trunks' case) to gain it. There wasn't even a clever way of explaining it, they just got them handed to them on a silver platter. It made Super Saiyans look like a joke and made it lose the signifcants that it originally had.
toriyama lesson for the day is: S-cells, high level of Power, and a Pure heart!.

that's all you need to Unlock the legendary super saiyan!
The common way fans explained it before was that Goten and Trunks were conceived when Goku and Vegeta had it so they passed it down to them. I personally would take that idea over Toriyama's any day of the week.
That makes even less sense. Goku and Vegeta had to acquire SS it wasn't genetic. If I dyed my hair red and then conceived a child, the child won't have red hair.

Furthermore the potential to go SS is in every Saiyan anyway it is about unlocking it so the explanation that Goku and Vegeta had SS and conceived children means they'll automatically have SS doesn't really hold up.

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Shintoki » Sun May 19, 2019 7:04 pm

sintzu wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:37 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:16 pm
Apslup wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:35 pm
However, basically straight afterwards you see a 7 year old and an 8 year old gain this legendary form without experiencing any struggles or hardship (especially in Trunks' case) to gain it. There wasn't even a clever way of explaining it, they just got them handed to them on a silver platter. It made Super Saiyans look like a joke and made it lose the signifcants that it originally had.
toriyama lesson for the day is: S-cells, high level of Power, and a Pure heart!.

that's all you need to Unlock the legendary super saiyan!
The common way fans explained it before was that Goten and Trunks were conceived when Goku and Vegeta had it so they passed it down to them. I personally would take that idea over Toriyama's any day of the week.
isn't that what toriyama did?, you need a lot of S-cells?. but saiyans are born with low amount, and those who are not are exceptions?. so it makes sense that goku and vegeta passed it down?. coincidental!. i think not!

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Shintoki » Sun May 19, 2019 7:07 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 8:18 pm
sintzu wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:37 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:16 pm


toriyama lesson for the day is: S-cells, high level of Power, and a Pure heart!.

that's all you need to Unlock the legendary super saiyan!
The common way fans explained it before was that Goten and Trunks were conceived when Goku and Vegeta had it so they passed it down to them. I personally would take that idea over Toriyama's any day of the week.
That makes even less sense. Goku and Vegeta had to acquire SS it wasn't genetic. If I dyed my hair red and then conceived a child, the child won't have red hair.

Furthermore the potential to go SS is in every Saiyan anyway it is about unlocking it so the explanation that Goku and Vegeta had SS and conceived children means they'll automatically have SS doesn't really hold up.
actually, according to toriyama. that potential relies in whether they have a certain amount of S-cells or not. so Yeah. vegeta and goku having that amount of cancerous-like weird cells passed down to their kids makes sense then

this is the man who made saiyans tail a recessive gene who we are talking about.

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Re: When Did The "Legendary" Super Saiyan Form Become A Joke?

Post by Rubens » Mon May 20, 2019 8:33 am

I think super saiyan became a "joke" mainly in Boo arc, first because of how easily Goten and Trunks could do it and then how quickly super saiyan 2 was surpassed, by both Boo and the super saiyan 3 form.

In the Artificial Humans arc, despite the nonsense of technology surpassing a legendary transformation, it still feels palpable or at least credible at some extent, as the arc itself presents the reasoning for it. The necessity of aiming to improve the super saiyan form is something that aligns with the story. In Boo arc I felt the form was cheapened by Goku and Vegeta fighting each other as ss2, after Goten and Trunks revealing their lack of difficulty to attain regular ss, culminating with presenting ss3 - and by extention, the introduction of equally cheap naming scheme.
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