Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

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Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Wed May 29, 2019 12:04 pm

It's pretty obvious.

Goku's reaction of pure shock after Piccolo told him his mistake with Gohan.

Goku saying actually saying he's sorry and saying he never expected things to go like this during the Cell Jr's attacks.

Goku saying Gohan is more reliable than him when he decided to stay dead.

Surely it's not that hard to connect the dots.

I only see people say it's just Goku thinking he attracts bad guys and wants to train in other world, why don't people know this side of his decision? His guilt over what he did to Gohan made him believe he shouldn't live on earth.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 29, 2019 1:33 pm

Yeah, don’t think Goku was suicidal but just me.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Tavarano » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:05 am

It doesn't make sense considering how he returned in Boo arc being as much of an asshole as always.
Also this, Vegeta's comment at the end is very clear.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Does it really count as guilt if you don't learn a damn thing from it?
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:38 pm

I don't think I've come across any fan who doesn't seen the context of that scene and not realize that it portrays Goku as feeling quite guilty for letting his desire for a fair battle cloud his better judgement of the grander scheme of the conflict between Cell and Gohan. It's more to do with the fact he just ends up repeating the same arrogance, desire for an interesting above anything else and continuous gamble of the fate of billions on a wing and prayer in the very next arc. All were character traits that the Cell arc made abundantly clear that it could have led to billions of people dying if not for an insane amount of luck on the side of the main cast.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Michsi » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:56 pm

There is a scene during the Cell Jr. attack in which he outright apologizes to everyone about how he didn't expect things to turn out this . I'm not sure how many people remember it, but I'm sure many have noticed it. He does feel guilty yet I'm not sure that was his reasoning for deciding to go down with Cell.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:02 pm

Another line I never see mentioned is Goku telling Gohan to tell Chichi that he's sorry for always acting so selfish.
Cursed Lemon wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:00 pm
Does it really count as guilt if you don't learn a damn thing from it?
In the Buu arc he says he doesn't want Buu to be revived, and he wants to set up the kids to be able to protect Earth.

Granted him and Vegeta start to screw around later on, but he's more responsible and concerned with the safety of his world as a whole after the Cell arc.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Lionel » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:20 pm

Goku isn't always the most practical when it comes to broader strategic manoeuvring on the proverbial chessboard. On paper his plans sound good with an eye for the long-term, but it lacks the clarity of who it is that he's involving in his schemes like Goten and Trunks. When it comes to combat, the boys' weaponised fusion alter-ego was more concerned about his tawdry antics and impressing everyone than simply getting the job done. Goku was 4 years older than Trunks when he first began his journey and even he wasn't above making mistakes then. You would think such experience might have caused Goku to take a step back and think about who it is that he's entrusting the world to -- i.e two largely inexperienced naive children who have probably never gone into mortal combat before Buu.

I get the impression that Goku was spurred on more by Goten and Trunks' general power and the desperation of not having any other options. Well, I don't want to say that there were literally no options at all left. There just wasn't anything that wasn't immediately available on-hand that they could use. If necessary they could have done something like have Piccolo assimilate a bunch more Namekians from New Namek -- it would have to be explained that it's for the fate of the universe -- use Porunga to bring back Vegeta and Gohan (who they believed was dead at the time), or somehow take Babidi hostage and have him use his magic to re-imprison Buu.

I would say that Goku's guilt from the Cell arc was from a good place. If you ask me, it would have been nice to see more of that introspection later on after Cell.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Simere » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:11 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:00 pm
Does it really count as guilt if you don't learn a damn thing from it?
I've never seen a definition of guilt that has that requirement. Many famous examples of guilt, in fact, involve the person refusing to face what they did, their repression causing them to spiral further into darkness.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:19 pm

I think it was great development for Goku's character. He was mature enough to know that he was beaten and knew his son surpassed him. Like others have said, he even apologized that he put them in danger because he didn't think things through. He even showed this through the Buu saga as he knew he wouldn't be around forever and he wanted the next generation to take care of things. This doesn't really contradict the end of Z as he took on Uub because he still does enjoy a good fight. Unfortunetly Super seems to inconsistent on how Goku was portrayed near the end of Z. Still loving to fight but cranking up his not thinking things through a lot more or forgetting things.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:35 am

It is assumed that with the sacrifice in vain against cell, goku paid his guilt .. what to stay dead for 7 years seems a foolishness ... it is as if he guessed that buu appeared and he does not strive to change his defect.
obviously he does not know it, and again he did not seem to mind after 7 years with buu he made the mistake of trusting 2 powerful children but that just like gohan does not know his personality.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by coola » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 am

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:19 pm
I think it was great development for Goku's character. He was mature enough to know that he was beaten and knew his son surpassed him. Like others have said, he even apologized that he put them in danger because he didn't think things through. He even showed this through the Buu saga as he knew he wouldn't be around forever and he wanted the next generation to take care of things. This doesn't really contradict the end of Z as he took on Uub because he still does enjoy a good fight. Unfortunetly Super seems to inconsistent on how Goku was portrayed near the end of Z. Still loving to fight but cranking up his not thinking things through a lot more or forgetting things.
He might fell guilt, but 7 years later he was even worse asshole saying "I could beat Buu, but i wanted kids to clean mess i and Vegeta caused" with make Buu Saga Goku one of worst versions in my opinion.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by mfwlegend3 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:11 am

coola wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 am
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:19 pm
I think it was great development for Goku's character. He was mature enough to know that he was beaten and knew his son surpassed him. Like others have said, he even apologized that he put them in danger because he didn't think things through. He even showed this through the Buu saga as he knew he wouldn't be around forever and he wanted the next generation to take care of things. This doesn't really contradict the end of Z as he took on Uub because he still does enjoy a good fight. Unfortunetly Super seems to inconsistent on how Goku was portrayed near the end of Z. Still loving to fight but cranking up his not thinking things through a lot more or forgetting things.
He might fell guilt, but 7 years later he was even worse asshole saying "I could beat Buu, but i wanted kids to clean mess i and Vegeta caused" with make Buu Saga Goku one of worst versions in my opinion.
It was Goku being under the impression that the kids got their shit together since he's aware that hybrids have even more potential than him (e.g Gohan during the Cell arc). If he didn't do that and simply killed Boo straightaway then people would complain that Goku always takes the wins.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by coola » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:00 pm

mfwlegend3 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:11 am
coola wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 am
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:19 pm
I think it was great development for Goku's character. He was mature enough to know that he was beaten and knew his son surpassed him. Like others have said, he even apologized that he put them in danger because he didn't think things through. He even showed this through the Buu saga as he knew he wouldn't be around forever and he wanted the next generation to take care of things. This doesn't really contradict the end of Z as he took on Uub because he still does enjoy a good fight. Unfortunetly Super seems to inconsistent on how Goku was portrayed near the end of Z. Still loving to fight but cranking up his not thinking things through a lot more or forgetting things.
He might fell guilt, but 7 years later he was even worse asshole saying "I could beat Buu, but i wanted kids to clean mess i and Vegeta caused" with make Buu Saga Goku one of worst versions in my opinion.
It was Goku being under the impression that the kids got their shit together since he's aware that hybrids have even more potential than him (e.g Gohan during the Cell arc). If he didn't do that and simply killed Boo straightaway then people would complain that Goku always takes the wins.
Then he also made same mistake he did with Gohan, thinking they love fighting as much as he does, and if he assumed that from Tenkaichi Budokai, there is a difference between fighting for fun and fighting for sake of whole universe.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:36 pm

Simere wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:11 pm

I've never seen a definition of guilt that has that requirement. Many famous examples of guilt, in fact, involve the person refusing to face what they did, their repression causing them to spiral further into darkness.
Which also doesn't describe Goku at all.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Simere » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:13 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:36 pm
Simere wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:11 pm

I've never seen a definition of guilt that has that requirement. Many famous examples of guilt, in fact, involve the person refusing to face what they did, their repression causing them to spiral further into darkness.
Which also doesn't describe Goku at all.
It's also just a response to guilt, not a criteria of it.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:36 pm

Simere wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:13 pm
It's also just a response to guilt, not a criteria of it.
And Goku has zero guilt responses.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am

mfwlegend3 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:11 am
coola wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 am
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:19 pm
I think it was great development for Goku's character. He was mature enough to know that he was beaten and knew his son surpassed him. Like others have said, he even apologized that he put them in danger because he didn't think things through. He even showed this through the Buu saga as he knew he wouldn't be around forever and he wanted the next generation to take care of things. This doesn't really contradict the end of Z as he took on Uub because he still does enjoy a good fight. Unfortunetly Super seems to inconsistent on how Goku was portrayed near the end of Z. Still loving to fight but cranking up his not thinking things through a lot more or forgetting things.
He might fell guilt, but 7 years later he was even worse asshole saying "I could beat Buu, but i wanted kids to clean mess i and Vegeta caused" with make Buu Saga Goku one of worst versions in my opinion.
It was Goku being under the impression that the kids got their shit together since he's aware that hybrids have even more potential than him (e.g Gohan during the Cell arc). If he didn't do that and simply killed Boo straightaway then people would complain that Goku always takes the wins.
In theory you could say Goku had the right idea to leave it up the kids however that is only if Goku remained hands off completely on Earth but he didn't. He engaged in a pissing match with Vegeta and one he could've ended earlier but chose to drag it on and that was what ultimately lead to Buu's revival. Plus as Lord Beerus said during the Cell arc they got away with it somehow yet Goku thinks it is a wise decicion to leave Earth's fate in a bunch of kids he just met on a technique they haven't even learnt yet. Yeah Goku is one idiot.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:41 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am
mfwlegend3 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:11 am
coola wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:03 am

He might fell guilt, but 7 years later he was even worse asshole saying "I could beat Buu, but i wanted kids to clean mess i and Vegeta caused" with make Buu Saga Goku one of worst versions in my opinion.
It was Goku being under the impression that the kids got their shit together since he's aware that hybrids have even more potential than him (e.g Gohan during the Cell arc). If he didn't do that and simply killed Boo straightaway then people would complain that Goku always takes the wins.
In theory you could say Goku had the right idea to leave it up the kids however that is only if Goku remained hands off completely on Earth but he didn't. He engaged in a pissing match with Vegeta and one he could've ended earlier but chose to drag it on and that was what ultimately lead to Buu's revival. Plus as Lord Beerus said during the Cell arc they got away with it somehow yet Goku thinks it is a wise decicion to leave Earth's fate in a bunch of kids he just met on a technique they haven't even learnt yet. Yeah Goku is one idiot.
It is true that Goku is never one to fully think things through, but I feel that his heart was in the right place. As he said he isn't going to be around forever. Although one of the frusterating things I have with the Buu arc is the contradiction of it's own themes.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's guilt in the Cell Arc?

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:03 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:38 pm
I don't think I've come across any fan who doesn't seen the context of that scene and not realize that it portrays Goku as feeling quite guilty for letting his desire for a fair battle cloud his better judgement of the grander scheme of the conflict between Cell and Gohan. It's more to do with the fact he just ends up repeating the same arrogance, desire for an interesting above anything else and continuous gamble of the fate of billions on a wing and prayer in the very next arc. All were character traits that the Cell arc made abundantly clear that it could have led to billions of people dying if not for an insane amount of luck on the side of the main cast.
Every one I've seen talk about his decision pretty much say it's only attracting bad guys and training in other world that is why he decided to stay dead, they'd also say stuff t's a poor decision because they don't realize it's also his mistake that affected his decision.

Plus Goku did want to destroy Buu before he hatched and wanted to teach Goten and Trunks fusion instead of destroying Buu himself, doesn't that show that he's changed because of the Cell arc?
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