DB's ending

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ABED
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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm

I can dismiss every Terminator after T2, doesn't mean I wish they didn't try to continue the story past its logical conclusion.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Thu May 30, 2019 6:42 pm

Cold Skin wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:33 pm
Right now, we're getting new memorable moments, new characters, new forms, new sagas, new weekly/monthly excitement.
The problem is that a lot of what we're getting is exactly what we already had. Trunks' arc is structured nearly exactly as his arc in Z. Freeza still hasn't been written as well as he was on Namek. Broly is just a remake of Broly. It makes sense financially as fans clearly want more of the same but from an artistic point of view, what's the point ?
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Cold Skin » Thu May 30, 2019 7:08 pm

^ I disagree, the Zamasu arc was completely different than what we had before. A mystery to solve involving the Gods with an answer no fans saw coming, our heroes discovering the devastated future for the first time, enemies forming an unfair duo that is perfectly synchronized, investigations with the whole group reunited to think together, a bitter-sweet ending where Trunks simply lost his original world forever and has to settle for another one where he'll live with doubles...

Broly is not just a remake, it's like only 20% of the original ideas stayed (mostly the reason to exile Broly) as the rest unfolds vastly differently and leads to a character that's vastly different.

I never had any special affection for Freeza even with Resurrection 'F', but after the way he was shown during the Tournament of Power and since then, with more subtlety and the ability to play well with others instead of stubbornly seeking revenge right now even if it has to backfire, I must say he is quite charismatic to my eyes, truly intelligent and a calculator instead of being the "I'll stab you in the back even if it's not in my interest" type of guy. He's finally learned and grown in his mindset.

Same with C-17, who had a little bit of charm originally, yes, but nothing comparable to how he came back in DBS with his calm, mature, very friendly yet no-nonsense behavior.

DBS reuses some elements (and it should), but a lot of it is feels new and not like a rehash.
When I watch the Zamasu arc, it doesn't feel like "remake of Cell arc", when I watch the new Broly film, it doesn't feel like "remake of Broly film". It's more "vaguely based on the premise of..." at most.
Last edited by Cold Skin on Thu May 30, 2019 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Grimlock » Thu May 30, 2019 7:13 pm

Lucky_Deity wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:59 pm
Plus on the video game side of things as well, all these new stories, characters and forms not in the main series, though fan-service, I love it just for that and is there just to be enjoyed.
You talk as if the fan-service in the games were something bad when the "main series" has done a far worse job, even at "fan-servicing" the audience.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Cold Skin wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:08 pm
I never had any special affection for Freeza even with Resurrection 'F', but after the way he was shown during the Tournament of Power and since then, with more subtlety and the ability to play well with others instead of stubbornly seeking revenge right now even if it has to backfire, I must say he is quite charismatic to my eyes, truly intelligent and a calculator instead of being the "I'll stab you in the back even if it's not in my interest" type of guy. He's finally learned and grown in his mindset.
After how many defeats and deaths, he's finally learned. Yay? Problem is he's overstayed his welcome and is now spouting Saturday morning cartoon clichés about how he'll get them next time.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: DB's ending

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 7:52 pm

DB's current canon should definitely end at some point, but it doesn't necessarily mean the franchise as a whole should end. I still think DB has a lot of untapped potential.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Thu May 30, 2019 8:02 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:48 pm

Beerus and Whis are essentially the Mom and Dad in the room
So who's the mom and who's the dad? :lol:

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Re: DB's ending

Post by WittyUsername » Thu May 30, 2019 10:00 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
I can dismiss every Terminator after T2, doesn't mean I wish they didn't try to continue the story past its logical conclusion.
The problem is that the current wave of Dragon Ball content we’ve been getting isn’t technically a continuation of the story. Super is a midquel. At this point in time, the proper conclusion of the series is still Goku flying off to train Oob. As a result, the series feels rather stagnant at this point.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Thu May 30, 2019 10:06 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:00 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:32 pm
I can dismiss every Terminator after T2, doesn't mean I wish they didn't try to continue the story past its logical conclusion.
The problem is that the current wave of Dragon Ball content we’ve been getting isn’t technically a continuation of the story. Super is a midquel. At this point in time, the proper conclusion of the series is still Goku flying off to train Oob. As a result, the series feels rather stagnant at this point.
Yes, it not only feels stagnant, it also undercuts the significance of him flying off with Uub.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by MyVisionity » Thu May 30, 2019 10:37 pm

I don't really think it's possible to do a legitimate continuation of a series after twenty years. Especially after the first one actually ended. After a certain amount of time any new material loses its ties to the old material and just becomes a part of the franchise in name only.
ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:45 pm
I love Supernatural and still think the show has plenty of worthwhile stories and characters, but it should've ended years ago. it's not nearly as good as it once was. There are occasionally great moments, but not with the frequency the show had in the first five seasons.
Damn, you still watch that? I had to quit midway S10 after hate-watching for a few years. I think it peaked at S2.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Fri May 31, 2019 4:25 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:37 pm
I don't really think it's possible to do a legitimate continuation of a series after twenty years. Especially after the first one actually ended.
You're right. The tech that goes into making something is completely different 20 years later. The mindset of the people working on it is completely different 20 years later. What's accepted by fans and the general standards of things are completely different 20 years later. You've got new blood involved that wouldn't have been 20 years ago. This applies to anything trying to come back after such a long time. Modern DB may have the same name as the original but that's where the similarities end.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Fri May 31, 2019 4:35 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 10:37 pm
I don't really think it's possible to do a legitimate continuation of a series after twenty years. Especially after the first one actually ended. After a certain amount of time any new material loses its ties to the old material and just becomes a part of the franchise in name only.
ABED wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:45 pm
I love Supernatural and still think the show has plenty of worthwhile stories and characters, but it should've ended years ago. it's not nearly as good as it once was. There are occasionally great moments, but not with the frequency the show had in the first five seasons.
Damn, you still watch that? I had to quit midway S10 after hate-watching for a few years. I think it peaked at S2.
The Creed series, and Rocky Balboa, make good cases that it's possible to continue a story after a lengthy absence. Those films are better than they have any right to be, but generally I agree. Even though it's possible, it's highly unlikely.

2? Season 4 is the best season. Hate watch is a strong term. What could possibly make you hate the series? I get being exhausted by its sheer length, but it's not garbage, nor do I understand if you thought so why any person would do something as silly as "hate watching". Ironically you quite right before one of its best seasons, season 11.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Fri May 31, 2019 6:41 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:20 pm
Exactly. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen “which villain should return next?!” As if rehashing even more stuff is supposed to be a good thing.
I think it's Ok, not good, just Ok if it's few and far between. The problem with modern DB is that rehashing is the norm with new content being the exception.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:09 pm

Dragon Ball ended defitivetly in 1995. Everything after that has been just supplementary material which you're free to embrace or reject.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Maphisto86 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:53 pm

I like a lot of what has come afterward, but if I had to pick a point where the story should have definitely concluded, it would have been Son Goku leaving to train Uub. Especially that wonderful Kanzenban ending where Uub is given Kintoun and rides away with it as Goku did in his childhood, with the elder Goku following behind. That was a nice "passing the torch" moment. Frankly, we have been spoiled for content since despite the lull in the early 2000s. Demand and profit win the day and I am not sure if that was good for the story or not. I am leaning towards the latter even if I enjoyed some of the content that has come since.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:24 pm

No matter how you feel about Super, it ended in the highest note possible, even higher than GT(action-wise at least, GT had the most emotional ending you could ever wish for) Z ended as boring as it could possible end.

I think we could enjoy a few(FEW) more stories if they are not re-hashes and Akira goes back to being an actual artist and quits playing the same songs all over again but with different arrangements. Too bad we are probably going for a simpson-esque DB.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:20 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:24 pm
No matter how you feel about Super, it ended in the highest note possible, even higher than GT(action-wise at least, GT had the most emotional ending you could ever wish for) Z ended as boring as it could possible end.
Z ended with the best possible ending for what actually happened in the series

Dragon Ball began with Goku leaving his home in the mountains to see the world and become stronger. Throughout the series he has many teachers (Grandpa Gohan, Muten Roshi, Korin, Kami, Kaio) as he trained to become stronger and fight stronger opponents. Now he’s found his strongest opponent and has gone off to train him. Full Circle, the student is now the master.

GT’s ending is okay, but it plays way too much into the “Goku is a pure hearted hero” mindset. Also Shen Long gets to decide that the earth doesn’t deserve dragon balls anymore, apparently, even though Shen Long and dragon balls were just created by the sitting Kami of the earth.

Super’s ending? It couldn’t get anymore saccharine if Goku and Vegeta pulled out their yugioh cards and declared “It’s time to duel!” Vegeta’s character arc was completed when he accepted Goku is better than him. This whole shonen-esque I’ll fight till I’m better than you! crap ignores that for fan service because it’s been decided that Vegeta is co-leads with Goku.

So yeah Super ending on a stock shonen ending doesn’t make it a high note for me.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:08 pm

The resonance of Z's ending isn't really about him becoming the teacher. That's part of it, but at its core, it's about Goku having more hills to climb. The strongest enemy he ever faced has been reincarnated and now he has another powerful opponent, just not a homicidal one.

I'm not sure what your issue with GT's is. Yeah, the DB's were created by Kami, but they were still used and abused. Taking them away until they couldn't be exploited over and over again. And I never once got anything about "Goku is a pure hearted hero" from that ending.

I've come to like DBZ's ending, but I still prefer GT's.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB's ending

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:24 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:08 pm
The resonance of Z's ending isn't really about him becoming the teacher. That's part of it, but at its core, it's about Goku having more hills to climb. The strongest enemy he ever faced has been reincarnated and now he has another powerful opponent, just not a homicidal one.
But it’s still part of it. I never said it was the only part
Now he’s found his strongest opponent and has gone off to train him. Full Circle, the student is now the master.
I'm not sure what your issue with GT's is.
I said it in my post :)
Yeah, the DB's were created by Kami, but they were still used and abused. Taking them away until they couldn't be exploited over and over again
The Dragon Balls were created by Kami, why does Shen Long suddenly have something to say about it?

Saying they were abused is a bit silly to me. They were created to let someone find all 7 and make a wish but only once a year. They went by the rules that were set up. Most of the wishes weren’t selfish. What made them used and abused other than the show said so?

I like the idea of the reliance on Dragon Balls as a solution solver having negative consequences but the execution was not good.

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Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:40 pm

I said it in my post :)
I meant, what the hell does the DB's being created by Kami have to do with why the ending doesn't work? I'm not seeing the connection between that and "GT's ending isn't good."

They weren't made to be wished on once per year. They need that time to regenerate, but it seems to me Kami wasn't counting on tech coming along that could track them. Prior to the Dragon Radar, it would require skill and perseverance. To collect them would take much longer since you didn't know exactly where they were. It doesn't matter how ethical the wishes were (why should that matter anyway?), they were still overused, and on top of that, the number of wishes increased from one to two. From a sheer storytelling standpoint, it's a giant get out of jail free card. No lasting consequences, no need for self control when you can easily wish away the negative outcomes. Why stop the bad guys preemptively when we can wish back everyone who gets killed? The execution was fine. I'm unsure what you're looking for.

As for Z's ending, becoming the teacher is incidental. It's not high up on my list of reasons the ending works. The last step of Goku's journey wasn't becoming a teacher. He's taught people before. It's a series about constant self improvement and overcoming obstacles. Being able to fight the reincarnation of the strongest opponent he's ever fought, whom he was nowhere near as strong as, is much more on theme. Your reason is fine, but it's not high on my list of why it works, nor would I be using it as the selling point.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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