DB's ending

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:13 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:24 pm
I think we could enjoy a few(FEW) more stories if they are not re-hashes and Akira goes back to being an actual artist and quits playing the same songs all over again but with different arrangements. Too bad we are probably going for a simpson-esque DB.
The problem is Toriyama isn't even leading things, he's simply doing what others ask him to. He's essentially a corporate yes man which is the worst thing that can creativally happen to any franchise.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

MyVisionity
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: DB's ending

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:47 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:24 pm
Z ended as boring as it could possible end.
I don't think I would call the final battle with Majin Boo and the Super Genki Dama "boring". And the last few episodes are supposed to be an epilogue after the climax.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:20 pm
Also Shen Long gets to decide that the earth doesn’t deserve dragon balls anymore, apparently, even though Shen Long and dragon balls were just created by the sitting Kami of the earth.
If you remember Shen Long having been created by God was something that only developed in the story later on. Originally it was just an autonomous force or nature that served no master. I can understand the writers wanting to return to this direction, especially in a concluding story.

User avatar
Chuquita
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15035
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:16 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: DB's ending

Post by Chuquita » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:20 pm

It feels like trying to put a genie back in the bottle though, turning Shenlong back into autonomous force at the end of GT. It'd be like trying to actively ignore that Piccolo's a namekian, not a demon. Ignoring established facts in favor of nostalgia bothers me. Like what's stopping Dende and Mr. Popo from just making a new dragon after Shenlong leaves? I dunno. I get people like GT's ending because it's sentimental, but it and Z's ending both leave me feeling frustrated more than anything else.
My deviantart * My tumblr * My twitter
---
フレフレ みんあ! フレフレ 私!

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1494
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:30 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:47 pm
Originally it was just an autonomous force or nature that served no master. I can understand the writers wanting to return to this direction, especially in a concluding story.
....huh? GT started with newly added lore that the black star balls were created by Kami before he split him into two beings. There’s zero basis that the writers “wanted to return to that direction”

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1494
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:34 pm

Chuquita wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:20 pm
It'd be like trying to actively ignore that Piccolo's a namekian, not a demon.
Piccolo is a demon and a Namekian.

No different than Garlic Jr being a demon and an alien from the makyo
Like what's stopping Dende and Mr. Popo from just making a new dragon after Shenlong leaves?
Yes. Nothing is stopping Dende from creating new dragon balls.

MyVisionity
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: DB's ending

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:07 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:30 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:47 pm
Originally it was just an autonomous force or nature that served no master. I can understand the writers wanting to return to this direction, especially in a concluding story.
....huh? GT started with newly added lore that the black star balls were created by Kami before he split him into two beings. There’s zero basis that the writers “wanted to return to that direction”
It was supposed to be the final story, so why not ignore all of the added lore?

I think you can brush aside certain established facts when it involves something like Shenlong and the Dragon Balls. It's because the series started with and revolved around it, so certain exceptions can be made. Also, Shen Long is a reflection of real world mythology involving dragon gods who control nature, which is another reason that I think exceptions can be made. Returning to an independent Shen Long brings things full circle in a way.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15633
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:05 am

Chuquita wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:20 pm
It feels like trying to put a genie back in the bottle though, turning Shenlong back into autonomous force at the end of GT. It'd be like trying to actively ignore that Piccolo's a namekian, not a demon. Ignoring established facts in favor of nostalgia bothers me. Like what's stopping Dende and Mr. Popo from just making a new dragon after Shenlong leaves? I dunno. I get people like GT's ending because it's sentimental, but it and Z's ending both leave me feeling frustrated more than anything else.
After overuse of the Dragon Balls just lead to the destruction of almost everything, would your next move be to create new ones? It would be like eating fast food after surviving a massive heart attack. Some lesson needs to be learned, such as not counting on gods to bail you out.

And as others have pointed out, Piccolo is both an alien and a (former) demon. One doesn't preclude the other.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Regular
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:51 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:47 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:24 pm
Z ended as boring as it could possible end.
I don't think I would call the final battle with Majin Boo and the Super Genki Dama "boring". And the last few episodes are supposed to be an epilogue after the climax.
Oh no, I wasn't talking about the arc but the show, I was referring to the epilogue, yes, too long and not memorable at all, it felt more like a "we'll be back next year", and were actually back a week later with GT, so it never felt to me like an ending probably.
To be exact, I was referring to the last episode, I would never re-watch Goku vs Uub and that lukewarm farewell to everyone, not like I rewatch Gt's episode 64 or Super's 131. The Pan bit from EoZ is much more enjoyable to me in GT's ending than in EoZ.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15633
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:39 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:51 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:47 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:24 pm
Z ended as boring as it could possible end.
I don't think I would call the final battle with Majin Boo and the Super Genki Dama "boring". And the last few episodes are supposed to be an epilogue after the climax.
Oh no, I wasn't talking about the arc but the show, I was referring to the epilogue, yes, too long and not memorable at all, it felt more like a "we'll be back next year", and were actually back a week later with GT, so it never felt to me like an ending probably.
To be exact, I was referring to the last episode, I would never re-watch Goku vs Uub and that lukewarm farewell to everyone, not like I rewatch Gt's episode 64 or Super's 131. The Pan bit from EoZ is much more enjoyable to me in GT's ending than in EoZ.
Even if GT hadn't been around the corner, it is in fact an ending. It's a thematic ending. What does an ending have to feel like one for you? The plot was wrapped up, everyone's stories are concluded, and Goku is going to train the reincarnation of his most powerful enemy. How does that not feel like an ending?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:06 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:39 pm
How does that not feel like an ending?
It never gave closure to Goku's character. It never answered 2 very important questions : 1- Could Goku get any stronger ? 2- Is there anyone else stronger than Buu out there ? Goku's 2 main goals from the start were to get as strong as he could and fight the strongest being in the world. Ending the story without answering those questions are what left fans (or me at least) unsatisfied with the ending.

BOG however does answer those 2 questions and thus makes the manga's ending far better. In BOG, we find out that Goku couldn't get any stronger than he was on his own and that he can only do it temporarily through a special ritual. We also find out that there is someone else out there and that he is the strongest in the universe, by far. Beerus also tells Goku that if by some luck he surpasses him, there are countless beings in other universes far stronger than him.

This tells us that although Goku is as strong as he can get, he can never be the strongest there is because like Roshi said, there's always someone else out there. Taking the BOG movie into account when going into the ending, it makes sense why Goku has decided to train someone else because he himself has reached his limits and is finally ready to pass down the title of "hero" just like Roshi did with him all those years ago.

Of course they had to continue BOG and throw all that away but on its own, BOG is the manga's missing part I could never put my finger on before it came out.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15633
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:36 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:06 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:39 pm
How does that not feel like an ending?
It never gave closure to Goku's character. It never answered 2 very important questions : 1- Could Goku get any stronger ? 2- Is there anyone else stronger than Buu out there ? Goku's 2 main goals from the start were to get as strong as he could and fight the strongest being in the world. Ending the story without answering those questions are what left fans (or me at least) unsatisfied with the ending.

BOG however does answer those 2 questions and thus makes the manga's ending far better. In BOG, we find out that Goku couldn't get any stronger than he was on his own and that he can only do it temporarily through a special ritual. We also find out that there is someone else out there and that he is the strongest in the universe, by far. Beerus also tells Goku that if by some luck he surpasses him, there are countless beings in other universes far stronger than him.

This tells us that although Goku is as strong as he can get, he can never be the strongest there is because like Roshi said, there's always someone else out there. Taking the BOG movie into account when going into the ending, it makes sense why Goku has decided to train someone else because he himself has reached his limits and is finally ready to pass down the title of "hero" just like Roshi did with him all those years ago.

Of course they had to continue BOG and throw all that away but on its own, BOG is the manga's missing part I could never put my finger on before it came out.
It doesn't need to answer 2 since then the question becomes an infinite series of "is there anyone else stronger out there?" and doesn't need to answer 1 because there no indication he won't continue to get stronger. There doesn't need to be an explicit answer because the whole point is Goku is going to keep going as long as he can. We just don't need to see it. Buu, and Uub by proxy, is by far the strongest enemy he's ever faced and he didn't come close to defeating him on his own. Matching him would be a feat in itself. I have no idea where you get that those questions needed answering. Giving an explicit answer to either is a dumb idea. The entire point of DB is about continual self-improvement. We don't need to know if Goku will ever reach his limit, to say that he does would go against the point of the story. I think Super does introduce us to the strongest being there is which is also counter to the theme of there always being someone out there that's better than you. At the end of DB, Goku's story is thematically tied up. Leaving those questions of whether Goku will get any stronger and if there is anyone else out there that's stronger is the point. The ending only works if Uub represents some goal for him to achieve.

BoG never says he couldn't get any stronger on his own.
the manga's missing part I could never put my finger on before it came out.
I still don't think you've actually put your finger on it. The first question alone I find baffling. What about the ending left you feeling like the story needed to answer whether there was someone stronger than Buu? Goku fought and didn't defeat Buu on his own, so why do you think that question would even come up? Why the hell else would Goku ask for him to be reincarnated if he wasn't that strong?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:57 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:36 pm
I have no idea where you get that those questions needed answering.

BoG never says he couldn't get any stronger on his own.

I still don't think you've actually put your finger on it.

What about the ending left you feeling like the story needed to answer whether there was someone stronger than Buu?
They do for me. I understand if you and others didn't care for an answer but I did.

Goku told Beerus he wasn't happy with the power of SsjG because it was something he couldn't reach on his own. Sure he could probably improve here and there but in terms of massive feats, Ssj3 was as far as he could go.

The movie makes the original story more complete, but that's just me. I also like how it portrayed Vegeta. Although the manga completed his arc, the movie still managed to develop him a bit more, both in terms of power and his relationship with his family.

It's just a question I've always had. Maybe you didn't and that's fine but that and whether or not Goku reached his limits always bugged me about the ending. The movie for the most part answered those 2 questions for me.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15633
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:05 pm

Why would you want to know whether Goku's reached his limits? Answering that question defeats the point of the series.

I'll have to go back to the movie, and I remember him saying SSJGod was probably not a level Goku could reach on his own, but I don't recall him saying anything about SSJ3 being the strongest Goku would ever get. Regardless, it's not like Goku got to where he did to that point on his own, so why should Beerus point be that different to what we've seen to this point?

Leaving things open ended is often better than giving concrete answers if the theme is about the journey. Why do you want to know if he had reached them? Often times answering every single question makes things too neat and tidy. Leaving questions unanswered feels more like life.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:05 pm
Leaving things open ended is often better than giving concrete answers if the theme is about the journey. Why do you want to know if he had reached them? Often times answering every single question makes things too neat and tidy. Leaving questions unanswered feels more like life.
This is just a personal preference but I like things to be complete and closed rather than open ended and BOG gives the original story that closure I felt it was missing.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15633
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:33 pm

What are a few of your favorite series finales?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:33 pm
What are a few of your favorite series finales?
Batman Beyond Return of the Joker as an ending to the Batman animated saga. Terry not only got to fight the original Batman's main villain, he also beat him, something Bruce didn't do. He was finally accepted by Bruce and Barbra as the true Batman and was no longer living in Bruce's shadow.

The Boruto movie where Naruto and Sasuke fought one last time together before passing things down to Boruto and the next generation. This was Kishimoto's final story despite others writing things set before and after it.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

WittyUsername
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: DB's ending

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:15 pm

As much as I like BoG, I don’t agree with the notion that it was necessary to make the ending of the manga feel more “complete”. When Toriyama originally wrote that ending, the idea was that Majin Boo had been the most powerful opponent Goku had ever faced, which was why he was so excited about the prospect of fighting Oob.

WittyUsername
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: DB's ending

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:16 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:59 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:33 pm
What are a few of your favorite series finales?
Batman Beyond Return of the Joker as an ending to the Batman animated saga. Terry not only got to fight the original Batman's main villain, he also beat him, something Bruce didn't do. He was finally accepted by Bruce and Barbra as the true Batman and was no longer living in Bruce's shadow.

The Boruto movie where Naruto and Sasuke fought one last time together before passing things down to Boruto and the next generation. This was Kishimoto's final story despite others writing things set before and after it.
Technically, wasn’t the episode Epilogue from JLU the true finale for Batman Beyond?

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: DB's ending

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:19 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:16 pm
Technically, wasn’t the episode Epilogue from JLU the true finale for Batman Beyond?
That's all it was though, an epilogue. The real, big story was return of the joker.
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:15 pm
When Toriyama originally wrote that ending, the idea was that Majin Boo had been the most powerful opponent Goku had ever faced, which was why he was so excited about the prospect of fighting Oob.
The problem with Majin Buu is that he was never presented as this "final" villain, he was just the next guy Goku and friends fought and things just ended. BOG however went out of its way to present Beerus as the be all end all of the universe which gave him a sense of finality.
Last edited by sintzu on Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15633
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: DB's ending

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:24 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:59 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:33 pm
What are a few of your favorite series finales?
Batman Beyond Return of the Joker as an ending to the Batman animated saga. Terry not only got to fight the original Batman's main villain, he also beat him, something Bruce didn't do. He was finally accepted by Bruce and Barbra as the true Batman and was no longer living in Bruce's shadow.

The Boruto movie where Naruto and Sasuke fought one last time together before passing things down to Boruto and the next generation. This was Kishimoto's final story despite others writing things set before and after it.
That wasn't the ending of Batman in the DCAU, JLU: Epilogue was. Bruce has long since accepted Terry, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to let him be Batman. If anything, Epilogue is way more closed ended. Don't get me wrong, both are really good (even if I don't like Bruce being Terry's "father"), but only one of them is an actual ending. I also disagree that Terry did something Bruce couldn't in beating The Joker, but that's for another forum. It was a big story, but it was in no way an ending. I'm not even sure it chronologically takes place after the series.

I like when things have been tied up plot wise but the ending is basically "life goes on". It's one of the reasons I have come to like the DB manga's ending. Will Goku ever reach his limits? What will come of his training with Uub? Dunno, that's not the point, and it's up to the viewer.

Here are a few of my favorite endings: Buffy, Angel, Cheers, Frasier, Wings, Halt & Catch Fire, Community, Breaking Bad, Justified, The Office (US), Scrubs (Season 9 doesn't count), Psych
The problem with Majin Buu is that he was never presented as this "final" villain, he was just the next guy Goku and friends fought and things just ended. BOG however went out of its way to present Beerus as the be all end all of the universe which gave him a sense of finality.
Which makes it all the better. We don't know if Goku will ever reach that place. That's life. And no, Beerus wasn't presented as the be all end all. It introduces the concept of the god of destruction and presents him as the next big bad, not the end of the line. What scenes or lines present him as the be all end all? All I recall is them talking about how strong he is, but what big villain hasn't been presented in those terms?
Last edited by ABED on Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Post Reply