Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[jjgp1112]

You keep pointing to this but I don't think this was really meant to be taken literally as Daimao talking through Jr., but just fancy audiovisual methods of demonstrating that it's still the old Piccolo's soul.

Does that not fit the definition of being both father and son? He has his father's soul, or as I've heard someone say, Piccolo the son is Daimao with a soul.

Oh, I agree with you. He's both the same Piccolo and a different Piccolo at the same time, and showing an image of the OG Piccolo talking alongside him and eventually fading into him demonstrates that.

[KBABZ]

Funny because what you say about me is exactly what you've been doing. Everytime someone shows you evidences of Piccolo Jr and Daimao being the same, you shut it down with poor excuses like saying that you have a version of the manga and that version you have is the only one that matters like if it was written by Toriyama himself as if he knew english, but the funny part is that you say you've read it many years ago and you don't remember Piccolo saying that at that moment even though we showed you the prove

Reading your comments seems like you want us to erase every time they presented them being the same person just to prove you're right.

AND YOU DO THE REVERSE! How many times have I and other people in this thread pointed to clear evidence later on in the series of Jr. acting as his own person and identifying as such and yet you ignore it and shove in that same gif from when the character is introducing himself?? As if that's the be-all end-all and that characters stay the same in this franchise?

You say it's poor excuses but I'm quoting evidence from other scenes in the story. As said numerous times in this thread, mainly by ABED, it's both. Jr. is both the father Daimao and his own individual, and there's a lot of evidence to support that idea because of the way both the manga and anime seem to flip-flop and transition on the subject. In my opinion, Jr. starts out as basically Daimao, but over time he grows into his own person who rejects the mission given by his predecessor. And for me the fact that Jr. even has a conscience and has such a unique bond with Gohan proves he's different because Daimao would never have been capable of that.

like saying that you have a version of the manga and that version you have is the only one that matters like if it was written by Toriyama himself as if he knew english

To call this out specifically, I use evidence from the ViZ translation because it's a hell of a lot more reliable IMO than quoting sources like the Funimation dub. If you've paid any attention to Dragon Ball translation, both with names and just Japanese language in general, then you know there's a lot of wiggle room when it comes to how things can be interpreted. Short of the translations by Simmons and his stand-in for the Blue Bricks, for me the ViZ manga is one of the best places to quote this stuff, unless you want to call up Julian for a personal on-the-spot translation of the manga.

And, since we're here, that shot of the Daimao ghost-face sliding into Jr.'s face isn't even in the manga.

[Grimlock]

Daima on the other hand has repeatedly tried to convince us that his side is correct and the only interpretation that should be accepted, which goes against the "what do you think? tone of the thread title. He clearly isn't interested in what we have to say if it's different from what he has to say, he just wants an echo chamber here.

As soon as evidences against you are provided, you don't just keep posting the same argument. It's pointless. Mainly when the evidence you're using are in the "same level" as the one the other person provided; in this case, statements.

Since conversation doesn't seem to be desirable here but rather "accept that I'm right", there's no point in continuing this.

And, since we're here, that shot of the Daimao ghost-face sliding into Jr.'s face isn't even in the manga.

That's what I would ask, that scene feels very Toei-y to me. Since it's not in the manga, then he's right when he says we should just ignore. (just that specific line in the GIF, though).

[MasenkoHA]

I don’t why it is so hard to accept that they are the same being, much as Kami is the same being, but they all developed their own unique personality.

Jr is Daimao. Just with his own personality and more noble qualities that Daimao didn’t possess.

[KBABZ]

Jr is Daimao. Just with his own personality and more noble qualities that Daimao didn’t possess.

Almost like he got a second chance in another life, particularly through Goku sparing him at the 23rd TB!

[Michsi]

They present him as the same person in the 23rd TB.

Where exactly? I can't get my volumes right now unfortunately but I remember going over the manga at one point looking for a specific quote for this.

Man we already said plenty of times the moments where they presented them as the same person.

Just watch the tournament 23 saga and you'll see it. When Goku explained his friends who was Ma Junior, Goku said he was Daimaho, and he explained how Daimao reincarnated to Piccolo Jr.

Piccolo during the fight with Goku, revealed himself as Piccolo Daimao's reincarnation.

Also we have this scene where Daimao talks to Goku about their fight when Goku was a kid, through Piccolo Jr's body.



What more evidences you need?

Again "Daimaou" literally means the Great Demon King - that is a title, a role, and Piccolo Jr. has indeed inherited that position. We meet this title constantly in several other anime and other Japanese media as it's used to describe someone powerful and evil. The scene you are showing there is from the anime, a visual representation of what the director of that episode interpreted through the reincarnation - I am referring to the manga since the anime is known to take liberties with the info given from the original source.

I remember clearly an interview where Toriyama mentions Piccolo and his father as separate individuals.

[KBABZ]

Minor note: If it was 100% the old King, wouldn't Jr.'s nose be the same?

[Piccolo_Daima]

Minor note: If it was 100% the old King, wouldn't Jr.'s nose be the same?

If you're someone's reincarnation doesn't mean that you have to be exactly like him, Uub is Buu's reincarnation and they look completely different

[KBABZ]

Minor note: If it was 100% the old King, wouldn't Jr.'s nose be the same?

If you're someone's reincarnation doesn't mean that you have to be exactly like him, Uub is Buu's reincarnation and they look completely different

Different mechanics of reincarnation, and Uub isn't Buu...

[MasenkoHA]

Oob is Boo though? Just reincarnated and cleansed of evil.

With Daimao to Jr it’s more the father becomes the son thing. The holy trinity metaphor between Daimao, jr, and Kami is most apt.

With Boo to Oob it’s your standard reincarnation. Boo was reborn as Oob.

[KBABZ]

Oob is Boo though? Just reincarnated and cleansed of evil.

With Daimao to Jr it’s more the father becomes the son thing. The holy trinity metaphor between Daimao, jr, and Kami is most apt.

With Boo to Oob it’s your standard reincarnation. Boo was reborn as Oob.

Personally I never considered them to be the same character from a personality standpoint since they're so different.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Oob is Boo though? Just reincarnated and cleansed of evil.

With Daimao to Jr it’s more the father becomes the son thing. The holy trinity metaphor between Daimao, jr, and Kami is most apt.

With Boo to Oob it’s your standard reincarnation. Boo was reborn as Oob.

Personally I never considered them to be the same character from a personality standpoint since they're so different.

Yeah, Oob/Uub is just a reborn being that came from the pure evil child sized Buu that Goku annihilates with the Genki Dama, although he was reincarnated as purely good unlike what he was in his previous existence. That really can't be compared to Piccolo Daimao/Piccolo Jr as they're quite different as you mention personality wise and just about every other way.

[MyVisionity]

Just watch the tournament 23 saga and you'll see it. When Goku explained his friends who was Ma Junior, Goku said he was Daimaho, and he explained how Daimao reincarnated to Piccolo Jr.

Again "Daimaou" literally means the Great Demon King - that is a title, a role, and Piccolo Jr. has indeed inherited that position. We meet this title constantly in several other anime and other Japanese media as it's used to describe someone powerful and evil.

It can be a title, yes, but in this particular context it is also the character's name. Piccolo Daimao. Not a given name maybe, but a name that eventually became his own. When Goku and the others refer to "Daimao", they are referring to the one Piccolo Daimao specifically.

Ma Junior doesn't so much inherit his father's position as he inherits his father himself. To what extent he inherited his father (body/mind/soul) is questionable. But we know it isn't simply an ordinary father/son situation.

[Michsi]

Just watch the tournament 23 saga and you'll see it. When Goku explained his friends who was Ma Junior, Goku said he was Daimaho, and he explained how Daimao reincarnated to Piccolo Jr.

Again "Daimaou" literally means the Great Demon King - that is a title, a role, and Piccolo Jr. has indeed inherited that position. We meet this title constantly in several other anime and other Japanese media as it's used to describe someone powerful and evil.

It can be a title, yes, but in this particular context it is also the character's name. Piccolo Daimao. Not a given name maybe, but a name that eventually became his own. When Goku and the others refer to "Daimao", they are referring to the one Piccolo Daimao specifically.

Ma Junior doesn't so much inherit his father's position as he inherits his father himself. To what extent he inherited his father (body/mind/soul) is questionable. But we know it isn't simply an ordinary father/son situation.

I don't know where people got this from - it's translated as "Demon King". To be more precise, it's basically the equivalent of "the devil", not "Lucifer" or "Satan".
Not to mention that another way I've seen Piccolo Jr. described in manga is "clone" which again, is something different from an actual reincarnation.

[MasenkoHA]

Again "Daimaou" literally means the Great Demon King - that is a title, a role, and Piccolo Jr. has indeed inherited that position. We meet this title constantly in several other anime and other Japanese media as it's used to describe someone powerful and evil.

It can be a title, yes, but in this particular context it is also the character's name. Piccolo Daimao. Not a given name maybe, but a name that eventually became his own. When Goku and the others refer to "Daimao", they are referring to the one Piccolo Daimao specifically.

Ma Junior doesn't so much inherit his father's position as he inherits his father himself. To what extent he inherited his father (body/mind/soul) is questionable. But we know it isn't simply an ordinary father/son situation.

I don't know where people got this from - it's translated as "Demon King". To be more precise, it's basically the equivalent of "the devil", not "Lucifer" or "Satan".
Not to mention that another way I've seen Piccolo Jr. described in manga is "clone" which again, is something different from an actual reincarnation.

But it was an actual reincarnation. I’m not sure why you want to insist otherwise.

[Grimlock]

No, actual reincarnation is the Buu/Uub case. Buu died, Enma-Daio did his trick, then there is Uub.

Piccolo Daimaoh spit an egg, from the egg came another being (or are Drum and others also Piccolo Daimaoh's reincarnation too?). That's simply called "asexual reproduction", no intervention from someone else is played here.

[MyVisionity]

I don't know where people got this from - it's translated as "Demon King". To be more precise, it's basically the equivalent of "the devil", not "Lucifer" or "Satan".

Yes, but it's still the character's full name as presented by the author. When the characters refer to simply "Daimao", we know who they mean. It's both a title and a name. Just like with all of the similarly named characters in the series, and fiction in general.

Not to mention that another way I've seen Piccolo Jr. described in manga is "clone" which again, is something different from an actual reincarnation.

I'll quote myself from earlier:

The original Japanese refers to Daimao having created a bunshin, a term which can mean anything from simply a person's offspring to a person's double or clone.

The meaning of the term "reincarnation" can vary depending upon the situation. It's not always used in the traditional sense. If Ma Junior is indeed some kind of reborn clone of Daimao, then that can be called a "reincarnation".

[Michsi]

Yes, but it's still the character's full name as presented by the author. When the characters refer to simply "Daimao", we know who they mean. It's both a title and a name. Just like with all of the similarly named characters in the series, and fiction in general.

It's not a name then , it's no different than Vegeta's title of "Saiyan prince" people know him for. That Piccolo Jr. calls himself the Demon King (very sparingly, by the way) isn't evidence of him being the same person as his father as it's just a title. As his son he is entitled to adopt that title.

The original Japanese refers to Daimao having created a bunshin, a term which can mean anything from simply a person's offspring to a person's double or clone.


The meaning of the term "reincarnation" can vary depending upon the situation. It's not always used in the traditional sense. If Ma Junior is indeed some kind of reborn clone of Daimao, then that can be called a "reincarnation".

Granted, I don't the language that well, but I haven't ever seen 'bunshin' used as anything other than "clone". My point was that there are various ways in which they refer to him, maybe even Toriyama wasn't quite sure what he'd settle on eventually, so one can't say that it's absolutely this or that. For me personally, I view them making callbacks to the original demon king was just a way of making Piccolo Jr. seem more threatening and to set him aside from the rest of King Piccolo's creation - made it more apparent that he wasn't just another minion like Piano, Drum etc.

[Piccolo_Daima]

In the Japanese version, he's literally treated as King Piccolo's reincarnation in every sense possible.

Also Daimao is never seen in the afterlife which means he's Piccolo Jr.

[ABED]

We aren't saying he's this or that. We're saying he's BOTH. He's the son and the father.