Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[Tai Lung]

the original idea was "that" ... but as almost all change for the benefit of the plot

[Piccolo_Daima]

Come on man, If Daimao had spent 5 years readying himself to beat Goku, then got beat by him, then Goku spared him, and now he's just spent 5 years waiting around, and now he has to ally with Goku's son to stop a greater threat for basically an entire year... An 11-year span like that can change someone like that. In the 10 years leading up to Raditz's arrival, Piccolo had basically been alone to meditate on his ways, his failures, etc. Presumably, this along with his fairly isolated upbringing changed him quite a lot. And he was with Gohan for a year...

You're talking about the guy who held a grudge against martial artists and rice cookers for hundreds of years.

Lol everyone would hold a grudge against the guy that put him in the mafuba for hundreds of years

Goku establishing that Piccolo Jr. was different was something I brought up as proof that he was different from his father from the start. If he was basically his father in another body he should've acted like the old King Piccolo during the 23TP. And then you said that Goku's words alone don't prove anything and I retorted with examples to show that the story supports Goku's observation+ knowing Toriyama's intention of keeping Piccolo Jr. around.
King Piccolo had a heavy nuance of sadism to him that was all about hurting for the sake of hurting. His game of picking cities to destroy every year is the clearest indication of that. We don't see that in Piccolo Jr. That is what I meant. Both fall into the category of evil and heartless, but only one of them is shown to take pleasure in excessive cruelty and that was one of King Piccolo's distinguishing traits.

You and some guys have been saying all the time that Piccolo Jr and Daimao can't be the same person because they're a bit different, well, Daimao and Kami are completely different and they're still the same person, so that argument is invalid.

I mean, if you say Piccolo Jr can't be Daimao by any means because they're a bit different, then how could Kami and Daimao be the same being given that they're e completely different ?

Piccolo Jr and Daimao being a bit different proves nothing, that doesn't mean they can't be the same person, so stop using that argument.

[MasenkoHA]

the original idea was "that" ... but as almost all change for the benefit of the plot

Nothing changed for the benefit of the plot. Piccolo never stopped being Piccolo Daimao’s reincarnation.

[KBABZ]

Come on man, If Daimao had spent 5 years readying himself to beat Goku, then got beat by him, then Goku spared him, and now he's just spent 5 years waiting around, and now he has to ally with Goku's son to stop a greater threat for basically an entire year... An 11-year span like that can change someone like that. In the 10 years leading up to Raditz's arrival, Piccolo had basically been alone to meditate on his ways, his failures, etc. Presumably, this along with his fairly isolated upbringing changed him quite a lot. And he was with Gohan for a year...

You're talking about the guy who held a grudge against martial artists and rice cookers for hundreds of years.

Lol everyone would hold a grudge against the guy that put him in the mafuba for hundreds of years

Your argument is flawed. You're saying Daimao held a grudge against a specific individual, but that was never displayed because Mutaito was LONG dead, and he started killing any and all martial artists pretty much the moment he was revived without even knowing if Shen or Roshi were still alive.

[Grimlock]

You and some guys have been saying all the time that Piccolo Jr and Daimao can't be the same person because they're a bit different, well, Daimao and Kami are completely different and they're still the same person, so that argument is invalid.

Not actually invalid because we're talking about different things here:

• Piccolo Daimaoh was expelled from Kami's body through unnatural methods. He's an evil "entity", an abstract thing taken form. This is the same case with Majin Buu and Super Buu (grey). Super Buu (grey) is not Majin Buu's son, it's an evil force that resided in the former taken form.

• Piccolo came from Piccolo Daimaoh through natural methods. He's a being whose existence came reproduction, he was born from an egg. Piccolo is not another evil side of Piccolo Daimaoh that was expelled through the same concept as Kami/Piccolo Daimaoh and Majin Buu/Super Buu (grey).

This "minor detail" (that seems to be constantly ignored, thus creating this avoidable mess) is what makes all the difference. It's what makes Kami and Piccolo Daimaoh the "same being" but Piccolo Daimaoh and Piccolo not.


Truth to be told, I don't really blame anyone other than Toriyama for this mess. He was really out of his mind to come up with this stupid and senseless notion that a son can somehow inherit his father's memories and for completely misusing the idea of reincarnation. Damn Toriyama... Why you didn't do the same with Goku and Vegeta? Imagine both of them with Bardock's and King Vegeta's memories and Toriyama using the "reincarnation" word in their case too... Lots of stuff would be a lot different (probably better, for that matter).

[ABED]

It's not a mess. You are making this too complicated. What is so hard to understand that Piccolo is BOTH son and father?

You are getting annoyed over made up stuff. Reincarnation isn't real. Its rules are whatever the writer deems them to be. How come Piccolo can put his life force in memories in his offspring whereas other beings can't? He's a demon! There's something you're also missing, Piccolo created a number of demons through his eggs, but they are still demons (i.e. they are supernatural creates). That they were reproduced "naturally" isn't relevant to them being demonic entities. Piccolo the younger was a demon, but also clearly different from his other offspring. He's also not "natural" in that he reaches adulthood within three years, something natural Namekians don't. Sorry Grimlock, your argument is faulty.

[Tai Lung]

the original idea was "that" ... but as almost all change for the benefit of the plot

Nothing changed for the benefit of the plot. Piccolo never stopped being Piccolo Daimao’s reincarnation.

piccolo jr could kill people without their souls being "trapped" without being able to go to the other world
piccolo jr is made friends with gohan
piccolo jr started fighting to save the earth

I think is something that piccolo daimao would never have done

so it seems to me that they changed that concept of "reincarnation" king piccolo and piccolo jr are different in personality and goals
king piccolo was pure evil but not piccolo jr was not

[Grimlock]

You are making this too complicated. What is so hard to understand that Piccolo is BOTH son and father?

You say I'm making this complicated and proceeds to make a senseless statement. Anyway, it's hard because... well, that doesn't make sense at all.

Its rules are whatever the writer deems them to be.

Nope, this is not a time travel nor Multiverse issues that can be worked in different ways. Reincarnation works the same. It requires someone to die and be reborn, that's an actual reincarnation. And that does not apply to Piccolo Daimaoh and his son's case. Enma-Daioh is not even part of the equation here and he's the one who makes reincarnation be possible.

That they were reproduced "naturally" isn't relevant to them being demonic entities. Piccolo the younger was a demon, but also clearly different from his other offspring.

They are actually Namekuseijins. Then again, Drum and the others being different is obviously because Toriyama didn't have that idea in mind yet. He created these demonic-like creatures that wouldn't appear again even when we reached Freeza saga. So it's more an out-universe issue that we can only roll our eyes on it.

He's also not "natural" in that he reaches adulthood within three years, something natural Namekians don't..

What's a "natural Namekuseijin"? There's only those who belong to the Dragon clan and the warrior types. We can't apply Dende's logic (the way members of Dragon clans grow up) to Piccolo's (the way members of warriors types grow up). Actually the way it was presented clearly shows that they grow up differently from each other.

[Michsi]

You and some guys have been saying all the time that Piccolo Jr and Daimao can't be the same person because they're a bit different, well, Daimao and Kami are completely different and they're still the same person, so that argument is invalid.

I mean, if you say Piccolo Jr can't be Daimao by any means because they're a bit different, then how could Kami and Daimao be the same being given that they're e completely different ?

Piccolo Jr and Daimao being a bit different proves nothing, that doesn't mean they can't be the same person, so stop using that argument.

They were the same person. They split into two beings that are connected, but they feel differently, they act differently, they think differently. They are separate individuals with their own personality, magically connected due to their origin, but separate nonetheless.

I will not stop using that argument because I believe in it.

[ABED]

The concept I'm talking about isn't really that complicated.

Reincarnation works the same.

Says who?Piccolo the son is his father's memory and life essence in a new body. It's the same as reincarnation. Reincarnation is the rebirth of a soul in a new body.

They are actually Namekuseijins.

They're both Namekians AND demons. One doesn't preclude the other. The child of Katatsu leaves Namek, reaches Earth, sees the evil of humanity, desires to take the mantle of God, finds out he must be pure good, expels the evil within himself, and that evil becomes Piccolo Daimao. Ergo, Piccolo is both Namekian and a demon.

What's a "natural Namekuseijin"? There's only those who belong to the Dragon clan and the warrior types. We can't apply Dende's logic (the way members of Dragon clans grow up) to Piccolo's (the way members of warriors types grow up). Actually the way it was presented clearly shows that they grow up differently from each other.

The two types of Namians aren't dragon clan members and warriors. Kami was a warrior AND a dragon clan member. It's why he could fight and create Dragon Balls. The two types of Namekians are healers (Dende and Grand Elder) and Warrior (Kami/Piccolo and Nail).

[MasenkoHA]

You are making this too complicated. What is so hard to understand that Piccolo is BOTH son and father?

You say I'm making this complicated and proceeds to make a senseless statement. Anyway, it's hard because... well, that doesn't make sense at all.

Literally the most common religion in the world is built around the notion that a deity became his own son.

I think if a third of the world can wrap their head around that concept so can you for a fictional universe.

Nope, this is not a time travel nor Multiverse issues that can be worked in different ways. Reincarnation works the same. It requires someone to die and be reborn, that's an actual reincarnation. And that does not apply to Piccolo Daimaoh and his son's case. Enma-Daioh is not even part of the equation here and he's the one who makes reincarnation be possible.

Wow sure would be interesting if Piccolo Daimao died (he did) and was reborn as his son (he was)

He created these demonic-like creatures that wouldn't appear again even when we reached Freeza saga. So it's more an out-universe issue that we can only roll our eyes on it.

What's a "natural Namekuseijin"?

Presumably a Namekian that wasn’t created from the evil essence of another.

Piccolo Daimao is a demon. Created from the evil from the Namekian who split himself from God and Piccolo Daimao. He is very clearly not a natural Namekian the same way Nail and Dende are. Hence he can do things like create offspring that look nothing like him or rebirth himself. That is not a product of him being a Namekian but a demon.

[ABED]

And the demons wouldn't appear again because by the Saiyan arc, Piccolo is no longer a demon. That's flat out text.

[MasenkoHA]

the original idea was "that" ... but as almost all change for the benefit of the plot

Nothing changed for the benefit of the plot. Piccolo never stopped being Piccolo Daimao’s reincarnation.

piccolo jr could kill people without their souls being "trapped" without being able to go to the other world
piccolo jr is made friends with gohan
piccolo jr started fighting to save the earth

I think is something that piccolo daimao would never have done

so it seems to me that they changed that concept of "reincarnation" king piccolo and piccolo jr are different in personality and goals
king piccolo was pure evil but not piccolo jr was not

Nothing was changed. Toriyama clearly conceived Piccolo Jr as the reincarnation of Daimao but somehow less evil. It’s not some retcon where Jr was conceived as just as evil then Toriyama backtracked and changed his mind.

People on this thread like to pull the “Toriyama pulled everything from his ass at the last second” card but things like Daimao rebirthing himself, the alien convo between Kami-sama/Shen and jr, Goku sparing Jr were all some level of planning for a later arc. Toriyama more than likely planned for Piccolo Daimao to be reborn less evil so he can reform around the same time he started writing for Piccolo to rebirth himself

[ABED]

It's smart writing to make him different in the ways mentioned because he's bringing back a villain. If he's just going to bring him back for a rematch, albeit a great one, to be defeated a second time, it would be a waste. He gets another great fight, increases the stakes of the 23rd TB, and then gives him a redemption arc.

[MyVisionity]

Reincarnation works the same. It requires someone to die and be reborn, that's an actual reincarnation. And that does not apply to Piccolo Daimaoh and his son's case. Enma-Daioh is not even part of the equation here and he's the one who makes reincarnation be possible.

It's not that kind of reincarnation. There are different kinds of reincarnations. Nobody had to die and be reborn in this particular case. Piccolo Daimao basically left behind a copy of himself in an egg just before he died. So essentially Piccolo was reincarnated/reborn, which is exactly what Toriyama writes.

[Grimlock]

Piccolo the son is his father's memory and life essence in a new body. It's the same as reincarnation. Reincarnation is the rebirth of a soul in a new body.

"Is"? More like "has". He just has his memories. Having someone else's memories doesn't necessarily make you be another person. And yeah, except Piccolo Daimaoh's soul wasn't reborn. Enma-Daioh would never allow/do that. Also because Piccolo Daimaoh was still alive when he spit an egg. He didn't die and then spit the egg.

They're both Namekians AND demons. One doesn't preclude the other. The child of Katatsu leaves Namek, reaches Earth, sees the evil of humanity, desires to take the mantle of God, finds out he must be pure good, expels the evil within himself, and that evil becomes Piccolo Daimao. Ergo, Piccolo is both Namekian and a demon.

Putting that way only makes it more clear how inaccurate/wrong it is to call him a demon.

Wow sure would be interesting if Piccolo Daimao died (he did) and was reborn as his son (he was)

Like I said above, Piccolo Daimaoh died after he had spit the egg. He even uttered some words to it. You can't reborn if you're still alive.

Piccolo Daimao is a demon. Created from the evil from the Namekian who split himself from God and Piccolo Daimao. He is very clearly not a natural Namekian the same way Nail and Dende are. Hence he can do things like create offspring that look nothing like him or rebirth himself. That is not a product of him being a Namekian but a demon.

I really would like to know how just by being capable of doing things others usually can't equals to being a demon. I'm not disputing that Piccolo Daimaoh is an evil entity and as such he can do certain things. But how can you label someone a "demon" just for one's capability? I can move my ears and have never met anyone else who can do that. Am I a demon too?

It's not that kind of reincarnation. There are different kinds of reincarnations. Nobody had to die and be reborn in this particular case.

There is no "in this particular case", we're talking about rebirth of individuals, not ideas or intentions. Piccolo Daimaoh spit the egg and then he died. Enma-Daioh didn't anything. So we can't call this reincarnation. When the "reincarnation" word starts appearing, that's the misuse of that concept. In the sense that Piccolo is the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimaoh's evil intention and etc... yeah, that is possible. One can continue someone else's legacy. That would be another type reincarnation and it's more a symbolic thing. But clearly this is not the type all of you want to use here. You want to use the actual reincarnation of someone, use the Buu/Uub case. Which is not possible.

[MasenkoHA]

I really would like to know how just by being capable of doing things usually others can't equals to being a demon. I'm not disputing that Piccolo Daimaoh is an evil entity and as such he can do certain things. But how can you label someone a "demon" just for one's capability? I can move my ears and have never met anyone else who can do that. Am I a demon too?
.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Am I being punk’d? Are you kidding me?

He is referred to as a demon. His title translates to Great Demon King. This. Isn’t. Difficult.

[ABED]

You keep bringing up Enma Daio, why? Are you assuming it's only by his permission someone is able to be reincarnated?

Piccolo Daimao is definitely a demon. Aside from MasenkoHA's point, those killed being in limbo is a giveaway that they are demons. I'm willing to guess that Toriyama borrowed that idea from some Asian religion.

Putting that way only makes it more clear how inaccurate/wrong it is to call him a demon.

How so? He's literally evil incarnate.

[MyVisionity]

It's not that kind of reincarnation. There are different kinds of reincarnations. Nobody had to die and be reborn in this particular case.

There is no "in this particular case", we're talking about rebirth of individuals, not ideas or intentions. Piccolo Daimaoh spit the egg and then he died. Enma-Daioh didn't anything. So we can't call this reincarnation. When the "reincarnation" word starts appearing, that's the misuse of that concept. In the sense that Piccolo is the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimaoh's evil intention and etc... yeah, that is possible. One can continue someone else's legacy. That would be another type reincarnation and it's more a symbolic thing. But clearly this is not the type all of you want to use here. You want to use the actual reincarnation of someone, use the Buu/Uub case. Which is not possible.

It's the term that Toriyama chose to use. I'm not saying it's the same kind of reincarnation as in the case of Boo/Oob. What I'm saying is that it can be called a "reincarnation" because, as the characters state in the story, Piccolo Ma Junior is basically a clone of Piccolo Daimao. So, in effect, he is Piccolo Daimao "reincarnated/reborn".

[Tai Lung]

Nothing was changed. Toriyama clearly conceived Piccolo Jr as the reincarnation of Daimao

yes, it started like that.

but somehow less evil.

why?. if it is supposed to be the same

It’s not some retcon where Jr was conceived as just as evil then Toriyama backtracked and changed his mind.

People on this thread like to pull the “Toriyama pulled everything from his ass at the last second” card but things like Daimao rebirthing himself, the alien convo between Kami-sama/Shen and jr, Goku sparing Jr were all some level of planning for a later arc. Toriyama more than likely planned for Piccolo Daimao to be reborn less evil so he can reform around the same time he started writing for Piccolo to rebirth himself

I have not said that ...

But would it be a bad thing if the author changed his mind about something for the benefit of the story and character development?

the piccolo that did not care if the people died in 23 tenkaichi does not seem to me exactly the same one that managed to save gohan from dying and even ignoring this ...
is something that the piccolo king that was pure evil would not have done

it seems to me that piccolo became independent of his father in personality and decisions

annyway I'm sure the author was not planning that they on being aliens when they were originally demons