Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[MasenkoHA]

Nothing was changed. Toriyama clearly conceived Piccolo Jr as the reincarnation of Daimao

yes, it started like that.

And continued to be so. Piccolo Jr never stopped being the reincarnation. Toriyama nor Toei went back on the concept. They continued to remind you that Piccolo Jr and Kami were once the same Namekian.

why?. if it is supposed to be the same

Because that’s how Toriyama wrote it? He clearly had Piccolo rebirth himself and be spared by Goku so he could do a redemption story.

the piccolo that did not care if the people died in 23 tenkaichi does not seem to me exactly the same one that managed to save gohan from dying and even ignoring this ...

Because that was a gradual change. He only teamed up with Goku to stop Raditz. He only sacrificed himself to save Gohan after bonding with him over a year after kidnapping him to use him as a tool to fight the Saiyans.

Nobody is saying Piccolo Jr is EXACTLY like Piccolo Daimao. The argument is if Piccolo Jr and Piccolo Daimao is the same person. They are. That’s why Piccolo Jr and Kami are considered the same person.

Think of if this way Boo and Oob are the exact same being. Oob is the reincarnation of Boo. They have a completely different personality but they are the same being.

The method of reincarnation is different but the concept of being reborn with a different personality is the same. Piccolo it Jr was still evil he was just less evil and it was a gradual shift .

annyway I'm sure the author was not planning that they on being aliens when they were originally demons

He at the very least clearly planned on it by the time he was writing the 23rd Budokai when Shen/Kami and Piccolo Junior are having an alien conversation.

And it’s been said before that Piccolo is both a demon and an alien. They’re not mutually exclusive. He’s an alien because the original Namekian is from Namek. He’s a demon because he was created from the evil within that was expelled from Kami.

Majin Boo, Piccolo Daimao, and Garlic Jr are all considered demons and they’re also aliens.

[Tai Lung]

And continued to be so. Piccolo Jr never stopped being the reincarnation. Toriyama nor Toei went back on the concept. They continued to remind you that Piccolo Jr and Kami were once the same Namekian.

the fact that piccolo jr can merge with nail loses a bit the point that kami piccolo were 2 beings who came back to make one

Because that’s how Toriyama wrote it? He clearly had Piccolo rebirth himself and be spared by Goku so he could do a redemption story.

[Tai Lung]

And continued to be so. Piccolo Jr never stopped being the reincarnation. Toriyama nor Toei went back on the concept. They continued to remind you that Piccolo Jr and Kami were once the same Namekian.

the fact that piccolo jr can merge with nail loses a bit the point that kami piccolo were 2 beings who came back to make one

Because that’s how Toriyama wrote it? He clearly had Piccolo rebirth himself and be spared by Goku so he could do a redemption story.

so things like "pure evil" and "reincarnation" lost all their concept if piccolo jr ends up being completely different.
with kid buu it was different it is supposed that his soul was purified in the other world
without memories and it was almost completely a new being

Because that was a gradual change. He only teamed up with Goku to stop Raditz. He only sacrificed himself to save Gohan after bonding with him over a year after kidnapping him to use him as a tool to fight the Saiyans.

Nobody is saying Piccolo Jr is EXACTLY like Piccolo Daimao. The argument is if Piccolo Jr and Piccolo Daimao is the same person. They are. That’s why Piccolo Jr and Kami are considered the same person.

Think of if this way Boo and Oob are the exact same being. Oob is the reincarnation of Boo. They have a completely different personality but they are the same being.

The method of reincarnation is different but the concept of being reborn with a different personality is the same. Piccolo it Jr was still evil he was just less evil and it was a gradual shift .

again is the fact that the murders committed by Piccolo did not prevent souls from going to the other world that before they met Gohan.
in that I can give you the reason but only because the concept of reincarnation and pure evil that the author managers in his work can be different

He at the very least clearly planned on it by the time he was writing the 23rd Budokai when Shen/Kami and Piccolo Junior are having an alien conversation.

And it’s been said before that Piccolo is both a demon and an alien. They’re not mutually exclusive. He’s an alien because the original Namekian is from Namek. He’s a demon because he was created from the evil within that was expelled from Kami.

Majin Boo, Piccolo Daimao, and Garlic Jr are all considered demons and they’re also aliens.

Garlic Jr is an alien?
we would be speculating a bit with that especially taking into account the "brothers" of piccolo

[ABED]

the fact that piccolo jr can merge with nail loses a bit the point that kami piccolo were 2 beings who came back to make one

It doesn't. Your writing is hard to read, sorry. Those methods of fusion are different. When Nail and Piccolo merge, it's not permanent, at least not if they don't want it to be. When Piccolo merges with Kami, it is permanent. That's why both take time to think it over. With Nail, it's two beings becoming one. With Kami and Piccolo, it's two halves becoming one whole.

[MyVisionity]

Those methods of fusion are different. When Nail and Piccolo merge, it's not permanent, at least not if they don't want it to be. When Piccolo merges with Kami, it is permanent. That's why both take time to think it over. With Nail, it's two beings becoming one. With Kami and Piccolo, it's two halves becoming one whole.

No, these are both the same method of Namekian fusion. Nail and God were both assimilated into Piccolo in the exact same manner. And as I recall, they are both permanent. The only difference is the significance of God and Piccolo having been a single being previously, thus the power boost.

[Grimlock]

You keep bringing up Enma Daio, why? Are you assuming it's only by his permission someone is able to be reincarnated?

And isn't that the case? Pretty sure deciding if someone can reborn or not is under his power. Otherwise Goku's wish wouldn't be granted.

How so? He's literally evil incarnate.

Yeah, an evil incarnate... of someone else. Not from Hell or Demon Realm.

It's the term that Toriyama chose to use. I'm not saying it's the same kind of reincarnation as in the case of Boo/Oob. What I'm saying is that it can be called a "reincarnation" because, as the characters state in the story, Piccolo Ma Junior is basically a clone of Piccolo Daimao. So, in effect, he is Piccolo Daimao "reincarnated/reborn".

The problem with that is that Piccolo is no longer a "clone" of Piccolo Daimaoh. He no longer has the intention of killing and such. He no longer is a bad guy. So we can't say they are the same. And the "reincarnation" in quotes (assuming you are referring to the type of reincarnation I said, the symbolic one) loses its meaning.

[MyVisionity]

It's the term that Toriyama chose to use. I'm not saying it's the same kind of reincarnation as in the case of Boo/Oob. What I'm saying is that it can be called a "reincarnation" because, as the characters state in the story, Piccolo Ma Junior is basically a clone of Piccolo Daimao. So, in effect, he is Piccolo Daimao "reincarnated/reborn".

The problem with that is that Piccolo is no longer a "clone" of Piccolo Daimaoh. He no longer has the intention of killing and such. He no longer is a bad guy. So we can't say they are the same.

Piccolo becoming a good guy doesn't change the fact that he was created as a clone of Daimao. His origins remain the same, even if his personality and nature might change over time. Of course he's not the exact same as Daimao, because (1) a copy is still a copy, and (2) just like you said he evolves into a good guy.

And the "reincarnation" in quotes (assuming you are referring to the type of reincarnation I said, the symbolic one) loses its meaning.

Actually, if anything, it strengthens its meaning. Piccolo becoming a good person means that Piccolo Daimao has truly been "reborn", because now he has evolved from the evil demon king of old into something new and different. Much like the evil Majin Boo was reborn as the kind-hearted human Oob.

[ABED]

Yeah, an evil incarnate... of someone else. Not from Hell or Demon Realm.

Flat out wrong. Are you just inferring all these ideas? The text says otherwise. One BIG detail you're missing is that souls of those killed by demons end up in limbo. This is a point brought up several times in Dragon Ball.

And as I recall, they are both permanent.

Piccolo says if he didn't like it, he'd cast him out. Now, I don't know if that's him being facetious or if he has that power, but it's something to consider.

And isn't that the case? Pretty sure deciding if someone can reborn or not is under his power. Otherwise Goku's wish wouldn't be granted.

It's clearly not the only case as it's not the only method of reincarnation. You're assuming it's ONLY by his permission that a soul can be reincarnated, but it's just that, your assumption.

[Piccolo_Daima]

You're talking about the guy who held a grudge against martial artists and rice cookers for hundreds of years.

Lol everyone would hold a grudge against the guy that put him in the mafuba for hundreds of years

Your argument is flawed. You're saying Daimao held a grudge against a specific individual, but that was never displayed because Mutaito was LONG dead, and he started killing any and all martial artists pretty much the moment he was revived without even knowing if Shen or Roshi were still alive.

[Grimlock]

Actually, if anything, it strengthens its meaning. Piccolo becoming a good person means that Piccolo Daimao has truly been "reborn", because now he has evolved from the evil demon king of old into something new and different.

That's assuming that Piccolo Daimaoh's symbolic reincarnation is meant to be that. A path redemption or something. And if it's that what you mean, I would like a proof, if you don't mind.

Much like the evil Majin Boo was reborn as the kind-hearted human Oob.

That's Enma-Daioh's doing, not a merit of the character itself.

It's clearly not the only case as it's not the only method of reincarnation. You're assuming it's ONLY by his permission that a soul can be reincarnated, but it's just that, your assumption.

The reincarnation of an individual does require the intervention of someone else. Someone has to regulate and oversee that. And it's just your assumption that it doesn't.

[ABED]

The reincarnation of an individual does require the intervention of someone else. Someone has to regulate and oversee that. And it's just your assumption that it doesn't.

Where did you get that idea?

I notice you didn't comment on my point about souls in limbo.

[Grimlock]

From hundreds of works that have this notion of afterlife, mainly the mythologies. If there is someone acting like a judge, reincarnation must be something to be kept in check by them. The Buu/Uub case proves Enma-Daioh is the one who manages that.

[ABED]

From hundreds of works that have this notion of afterlife, mainly the mythologies. If there is someone acting like a judge, reincarnation must be something to be kept in check by them. The Buu/Uub case proves Enma-Daioh is the one who manages that.

You're using an outside text. I hope you can see why I'm less than convinced by that argument.

And the Uub case proves nothing other than that's a means of reincarnation, not the only means. Piccolo placed his memories and his life force into that egg. It wasn't as simple as him giving birth to another Namekian or even another demon, which by the way you are also arguing that is something he is not. Well guess what, the text says he is a demon. He says he's a demon, and it's remarked upon by Kami that Raditz didn't go to limbo. He says that's an interesting change, thus proving he is no longer a demon.

[KBABZ]

Lol everyone would hold a grudge against the guy that put him in the mafuba for hundreds of years

Your argument is flawed. You're saying Daimao held a grudge against a specific individual, but that was never displayed because Mutaito was LONG dead, and he started killing any and all martial artists pretty much the moment he was revived without even knowing if Shen or Roshi were still alive.

Spoiler:

WTF does that have to do with what I was talking about??

[Grimlock]

You're using an outside text. I hope you can see why I'm less than convinced by that argument.

One of these "outside text" is the Japanese mythology. Which was obviously used as an inspiration for Toriyama. Enma-Daioh's role is pretty much the same. He's the judge. He can dictate who's gonna reborn or not.

And the Uub case proves nothing other than that's a means of reincarnation, not the only means.

Here's just your assumption again.

[ABED]

You're using an outside text. I hope you can see why I'm less than convinced by that argument.

Yeah, I see you refusing to see what's in front of you. One of these "outside text" is the Japanese mythology. Which was obviously used as an inspiration for Toriyama. Enma-Daioh's role is pretty much the same. He's the judge. He can dictate who's gonna reborn or not.

And the Uub case proves nothing other than that's a means of reincarnation, not the only means.

Here's just your assumption again.

Not an assumption. Toriyama literally uses the term reincarnation when talking about Piccolo Jr.

Why should I put stock in any of your arguments when you refuse to acknowledge Piccolo is even a demon? You're refusing to see what's right in front of you.

[Grimlock]

But Toriyama didn't specify it was an actual reincarnation. Which makes possible to interpret he's referring to a symbolic reincarnation.

[ABED]

But Toriyama didn't specify it was an actual reincarnation. Which makes possible to interpret he's referring to a symbolic reincarnation.

He did by choosing the term "reincarnation". What the hell is a symbolic reincarnation? Does Toriyama strike you as the type that uses much if any symbolism?

You still have yet to touch on my point about souls of those killed by demons going into limbo.

[Grimlock]

He did by choosing the term "reincarnation". What the hell is a symbolic reincarnation?

Don't know where you live but in the real world, words may have the "figurative" meaning. And that includes reincarnation. In this sense, ideas, philosophies, beliefs, intentions, goal, wish, will... All of that can be "reborn". Where you live people may take everything literal, but in the real world, that's not what happens. We have at least two ways to interpret and see things.

By choosing "reincarnation" and taking into consideration Piccolo Daimaoh's final words before dying, this is what can be inferred. Piccolo is Piccolo Daimaoh's reincarnation of intentions. Toriyama wanted Piccolo to follow his dad's path, to continue his legacy. He wanted Piccolo to continue where Piccolo Daimaoh left, he wanted the former to avenge the latter. By no means this necessarily means that they are one and the same, let alone that "they are both".

Then enters the problem with this: philosophies, ideas, beliefs, intentions... All of that can die. And once it happens, the figurative meaning (of reincarnation) loses its meaning. As a result, we can't say that Piccolo is Piccolo Daimaoh's symbolic reincarnation these days. Piccolo does not want to avenge his father, he does not want to continue being that evil person. He is a different person.

That said, this is not an "actual reincarnation". Enma-Daioh has nothing to do here and so Piccolo Daimaoh is not Piccolo in the literal meaning of the word.

Now, if Piccolo is not Piccolo Daimaoh's symbolic reincarnation anymore and surely is not his actual reincarnation (because Enma-Daioh would never allow an evil person to reincarnate only to continue being an evil person), we can literally say they are not the same person at all. And again, you seem to ignore when Kami himself differentiated Piccolo and Piccolo Daimaoh when he was talking to Piccolo about merging. And when Piccolo refers to Piccolo Daimaoh as "father".

Does Toriyama strike you as the type that uses much if any symbolism?

"Much"? No. "Any"? Yes. This very subject we're discussing is an example.

[ABED]

Can you think of another example of symbolism beyond this one? Otherwise, I'm gonna conclude it's not symbolic, it's actual. Perhaps I should've been clearer - can you think of any OTHER examples of symbolism in Dragon Ball? Sometimes a river is just a river.

Don't know where you live but in the real world, words may have the "figurative" meaning.

Can we despense with the snark? I understand the concept of symbolism, I just don't understand what you meant in this context. If you insist on being condescending, we should call this a day.

Again you evade the point about souls going into limbo.