Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[Grimlock]

Can you think of another example of symbolism beyond this one? Otherwise, I'm gonna conclude it's not symbolic, it's actual. Perhaps I should've been clearer - can you think of any OTHER examples of symbolism in Dragon Ball? Sometimes a river is just a river.

Why do you want more? I'm not trying to prove anything if Toriyama is someone who uses symbolism or not. But like you said "sometimes a river is just a river". For the most part of Dragon Ball a river is just a river, but in this case, it doesn't seem to be a river at all.

I understand the concept of symbolism, I just don't understand what you meant in this context.

I've just written a text explain it.

[ABED]

Can you think of another example of symbolism beyond this one? Otherwise, I'm gonna conclude it's not symbolic, it's actual. Perhaps I should've been clearer - can you think of any OTHER examples of symbolism in Dragon Ball? Sometimes a river is just a river.

Why do you want more? I'm not trying to prove anything if Toriyama is someone who uses symbolism or not. But like you said "sometimes a river is just a river". For the most part of Dragon Ball a river is just a river, but in this case, it doesn't seem to be just a river.

I understand the concept of symbolism, I just don't understand what you meant in this context.

I've just written a text explain it.

I want more examples because if there are no other examples, the obvious inference is Toriyama isn't being symbolic. Why would he not use symbolism except for this single instance?

And that should've read "I didn't understand". I understand your argument now, but it's still incorrect.

It doesn't seem like a river to you because you make all sorts of weird assumptions, including that Daimao is not a demon!

[Grimlock]

Why would he not use symbolism except for this single instance?

Here is about Toriyama's writing characteristic, which is something I won't delve into. Writing characteristic can change, can make the author use something once in the whole work, can vary throughout the work... Toriyama said he would never write something so dramatic these days even if he had done in the past.

That is a question you should ask Toriyama himself.

It doesn't seem like a river to you because you make all sorts of weird assumptions

Or because you (plural) take everything too literal. No wonder, there is this and Beerus' statement in Movie 14. Which people think Beerus is referring to Movie 14 Goku that can't defeat Freeza, instead of the Goku from Freeza saga that couldn't defeat Freeza without Super Saiyan.

[ABED]

Why would he not use symbolism except for this single instance?

Here is about Toriyama's writing characteristic, which is something I won't delve into. Writing characteristic can change, can make the author use something once in the whole work, can vary throughout the work... Toriyama said he would never write something so dramatic these days even if he had done in the past.

That is a question you should ask Toriyama himself.

So because he doesn't have a desire to write something so dramatic after a LONG stretch of darker and more dramatic stories, you interpret that as him being open to change. Fine, but why use symbolism this ONE time and never again? This isn't a change, it's an inconsistency. This is a question for you as you're the one making the claim. You're evidence is outside texts and a character Toriyama hadn't created yet, i.e. Enma Daio.

And yet again you evade the point about souls in limbo. I'm going to keep hounding you on this because I think it's a very clear indicator that you haven't the faintest clue of what you're talking about.

[Grimlock]

You do whatever you want. You have no idea what reincarnation is in its wider meaning, how it works and take everything literal. Anyway.

[ABED]

You do whatever you want. You have no idea what reincarnation is in its wider meaning, how it works and take everything literal. Anyway.

You think Daimao isn't a demon despite it being his title/name. Apparently that's figurative as well.

[MyVisionity]

But Toriyama didn't specify it was an actual reincarnation. Which makes possible to interpret he's referring to a symbolic reincarnation.

He did by choosing the term "reincarnation". What the hell is a symbolic reincarnation?

"Symbolic" isn't the term I would use here. "Figurative" possibly, but maybe not even that. I think what Grimlock is referring to is "reincarnation" in the traditional/religious sense of dying, going to the afterlife and having your soul cleansed and given a new form. However, this is not the only usage of rebirth/reincarnation.

生まれ変わり (umarekawari) - rebirth/reincarnation.

Piccolo Ma Junior is the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao because he is a clone of his father. Thus, by definition, Daimao has been reborn. It doesn't matter if they are technically parent and child. Daimao has been born again via the clone he birthed. The definition of reincarnation/rebirth is broader than simply the most common usage. It's clear that Toriyama is using the less traditional definition of the term.

[Piccolo_Daima]

He did by choosing the term "reincarnation". What the hell is a symbolic reincarnation?

Don't know where you live but in the real world, words may have the "figurative" meaning. And that includes reincarnation. In this sense, ideas, philosophies, beliefs, intentions, goal, wish, will... All of that can be "reborn". Where you live people may take everything literal, but in the real world, that's not what happens. We have at least two ways to interpret and see things.

By choosing "reincarnation" and taking into consideration Piccolo Daimaoh's final words before dying, this is what can be inferred. Piccolo is Piccolo Daimaoh's reincarnation of intentions. Toriyama wanted Piccolo to follow his dad's path, to continue his legacy. He wanted Piccolo to continue where Piccolo Daimaoh left, he wanted the former to avenge the latter. By no means this necessarily means that they are one and the same, let alone that "they are both".

Then enters the problem with this: philosophies, ideas, beliefs, intentions... All of that can die. And once it happens, the figurative meaning (of reincarnation) loses its meaning. As a result, we can't say that Piccolo is Piccolo Daimaoh's symbolic reincarnation these days. Piccolo does not want to avenge his father, he does not want to continue being that evil person. He is a different person.

That said, this is not an "actual reincarnation". Enma-Daioh has nothing to do here and so Piccolo Daimaoh is not Piccolo in the literal meaning of the word.

Now, if Piccolo is not Piccolo Daimaoh's symbolic reincarnation anymore and surely is not his actual reincarnation (because Enma-Daioh would never allow an evil person to reincarnate only to continue being an evil person), we can literally say they are not the same person at all. And again, you seem to ignore when Kami himself differentiated Piccolo and Piccolo Daimaoh when he was talking to Piccolo about merging. And when Piccolo refers to Piccolo Daimaoh as "father".

And we showed you evidences of Piccolo saying he's the reincarnation of Daimao and you ignored it, which proves that you have no arguments

What about this? Piccolo refers to Daimao as himself, by telling Goku that he's stronger than he was three years ago when they fought.

[KBABZ]

What about this? Piccolo refers to Daimao as himself, by telling Goku that he's stronger than he was three years ago when they fought.

Spoiler:

Probably because I already explained that the translation is not the same as ViZ's.

[Grimlock]

And we showed you evidences of Piccolo saying he's the reincarnation of Daimao and you ignored it, which proves that you have no arguments

And I showed you multiple evidences of different characters saying that Piccolo Daimaoh and Piccolo are different beings and you ignored it, which proves that you have no arguments.

What I had to say I said and I wouldn't come to this thread anymore, but let me just say this to you: you created a thread and refused to at least acknowledge people's point of view. Instead, you kept forcing your opinion down our throats acting as if you were the only one right by continuously using the same "argument" over and over sounding like a broken record (and what's worse, you still keep using shitty fan translation and filler scenes). If the only thing you are going to do is repeating yourself, then you have nothing more to contribute to the conversation and might as well let it die. I can see you are new here but let this be known, this is not how things work here, if you are not willing to engage in a proper conversation, don't start it.

[ABED]

And I showed you multiple evidences of different characters saying that Piccolo Daimaoh and Piccolo are different beings and you ignored it, which proves that you have no arguments.

We didn't ignore it. Combined with evidence that they are also the same, that leads to one conclusion - he is BOTH.

If you are going to go on the record as saying Piccolo isn't a demon, why should we take anything you say into consideration, especially when you use arguments like this gem:

I really would like to know how just by being capable of doing things usually others can't equals to being a demon. I'm not disputing that Piccolo Daimaoh is an evil entity and as such he can do certain things. But how can you label someone a "demon" just for one's capability? I can move my ears and have never met anyone else who can do that. Am I a demon too?

[Piccolo_Daima]

What about this? Piccolo refers to Daimao as himself, by telling Goku that he's stronger than he was three years ago when they fought.

Spoiler:

Probably because I already explained that the translation is not the same as ViZ's.

This is from VIZ, if you have another traduction where Piccolo Jr says another thing, show it or it's just bullsh...

[KBABZ]

What about this? Piccolo refers to Daimao as himself, by telling Goku that he's stronger than he was three years ago when they fought.

Spoiler:

Probably because I already explained that the translation is not the same as ViZ's.

This is from VIZ, if you have another traduction where Piccolo Jr says another thing, show it or it's just bullsh...

HAHAHA, yours is NOT from Viz! This is what mine looks like:



In case you need a breakdown:

• The scan quality is MUCH better and at a higher resolution.
• The scan isn't in black and white.
• The translation is completely different and much more articulate (and this applies to every character by the way, not just Piccolo).
• The font is different (not Comic Sans) and is in all-caps.
• The image is the correct way around, being read from right to left like all of ViZ's publications of Dragon Ball.
• Piccolo refers to Goku as Son Goku and uses honourifics for Kami in the ViZ version, which is consistent across their translation.

tl;dr You've been using a basic fan translation as your "official" source, which completely discredits your argument.

[Piccolo_Daima]

Probably because I already explained that the translation is not the same as ViZ's.

This is from VIZ, if you have another traduction where Piccolo Jr says another thing, show it or it's just bullsh...

HAHAHA, yours is NOT from Viz! This is what mine looks like:



In case you need a breakdown:

• The scan quality is MUCH better and at a higher resolution.
• The scan isn't in black and white.
• The translation is completely different and much more articulate (and this applies to every character by the way, not just Piccolo).
• The font is different (not Comic Sans) and is in all-caps.
• The image is the correct way around, being read from right to left like all of ViZ's publications of Dragon Ball.
• Piccolo refers to Goku as Son Goku and uses honourifics for Kami in the ViZ version, which is consistent across their translation.

tl;dr You've been using a basic fan translation as your "official" source, which completely discredits your argument.

"Cannot be compared to him whom you fought three years ago"?

Well, anyways, Piccolo Jr is referring to Daimao as himself too, so thanks for proving my point

[Hugo Boss]

By Viz’s version, it seems Piccolo Jr. is referring to himself in the third person, which in practical terms is the same as saying he is Demon King Piccolo himself.

[KBABZ]

"Cannot be compared to him whom you fought three years ago"?

Well, anyways, Piccolo Jr is referring to Daimao as himself too, so thanks for proving my point

Thanks for completely ignoring the reveal that you were using a fan translation as evidence this entire time.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Looks to me as if Piccolo_Daima is just repeatedly regurgitating his same argument in the thread as to Piccolo Daimao's and Jr's connection and going in circles with a fan translated version that is not officially recognized and proven inaccurate as evidence. Fan translations/scanlations do not trump the officially released version that is effectively just a custom job that people do with their own personal and in some cases very basic interpretations of the dialog from the original Japanese, and really the former one just doesn't sound right to me unlike KBABZ's pic of the official Viz translation. The fan version just seems a bit too simplified and doesn't give quite the same amount of exposition as the latter does.

[Vijay]

Daimou is nother level badass man.

I just rewatched his scenes 2 days back & there's a sense of menace & sinister hatred towards mankind, especially towards martial artists...along with badass voice by our late seiyuu...different level badassery. Dude took pride in being Mazoku & liked things he accomplished with DB's

Piccolo Jr even during his intro...I felt he's not gonna match even 50% of character depth, plans & badassery of his oyaji . Dats not to say I didnt enjoy him. Simply felt...been there, done that as far as story-telling goes. But in terms of power scaling & technique goes, Piccolo Jr faar outstrips his dad. No contest

And the mellow & good-hearted Piccolo-san we've grown to admire all these years further amplifies...or should I say...distinctly seperates him as noble Namekuseijin

[KBABZ]

Looks to me as if Piccolo_Daima is just repeatedly regurgitating his same argument in the thread as to Piccolo Daimao's and Jr's connection and going in circles with a fan translated version that is not officially recognized and proven inaccurate as evidence. Fan translations/scanlations do not trump the officially released version that is effectively just a custom job that people do with their own personal and in some cases very basic interpretations of the dialog from the original Japanese, and really the former one just doesn't sound right to me unlike KBABZ's pic of the official Viz translation. The fan version just seems a bit too simplified and doesn't give quite the same amount of exposition as the latter does.

Yeah, I've pretty much checked out of this thread. There's a good way to handle opinions that you don't share... and then there's what Daima's been doing for the past week.

[dragon boss z]

He kept Daimao's memories, but he has a different personality. So basically it depends on if you think memories or personality are what make a person an individual.