Can we consider Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr the same person?

[Piccolo_Daima]

Daimao gave birth to a son as he was dying (hence why Piccolo looks physically different) and then right as he was dying he transferred his memories and his essence, everything that made him what he was into the child's body. Thus Daimao was reborn/reincarnated into the body of his own son. The Piccolo that we know in Z is effectively Daimao himself (to the point of still maintaining the same spiritual connection to Kami), but changed and altered in certain ways in the transition (like having a conscience as well as no longer being considered a demonic spirit by the DB world's spiritual laws; almost like being reborn acted as some kind of spiritual "filter").

Even during the Saiya-jin, Freeza, and early Cell/Jinzoningen arcs, right up till when he re-merges with Kami, many of the other characters still at times referred to and addressed him as "Piccolo Daimao" straight up. He IS still technically Daimao, but radically changed, i.e. he's no longer a being of pure malevolent evil. Its also why when Piccolo and Kami re-merge in the Cell arc, he refers to himself as "the Namek who had long since forgotten his name". I.e. the original son of Katatsu. Because both halves (good and evil) have rejoined together (after the evil half underwent some "purification" beforehand first). Because Piccolo Ma Junior IS still the other half that was missing from Kami, i.e. Daimao. Its why that moment when he first goes to Kami's temple to re-merge is played up as such a dramatic moment, and why Piccolo's behavior from that point on changes in some subtle (and not so subtle) ways.

In any event, its certainly not just as simple or clean cut a matter as "one's the father, the other's the son". In all honesty, going just off the Japanese script, the dialogue often times seems to lean more heavily towards painting Piccolo Ma Junior and Piccolo Daimao being one and the same being rather than two distinct "father/son" entities

[ABED]

It's a trinity like idea. He's both father and son. Piccolo Daimao and his son are the same character.

[KBABZ]

I personally feel they are individual, but obviously incredibly linked. For me the major differentiator is that Daimao, being an embodiment of evil, was incapable of being good in the way we see Jr. become; about the only attachment we see him have is towards his minions.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

They are for the most part as Piccolo/Ma Jr. was Piccolo Daimo's/King Piccolo's that was spawned upon his impending death immediately after Goku punched right through him, although as we see in Z the reincarnated Piccolo gradually loses his inherited evilness although even some of his earlier scenes in the original DB series sets up subtle hints that he's not quite the same as his late father i.e. the part where he saves the little boy from the falling debris. However, it was only once he had trained Gohan and nobly sacrifice himself shielding the latter against Nappa's attack do we really see the true change and even more so by the Namek arc onward as he grows by merging with Nail and eventually with Kami again bringing things full circle.

[ABED]

Saving the boy from the debris was filler, otherwise you're correct.

[Piccolo_Daima]

They are for the most part as Piccolo/Ma Jr. was Piccolo Daimo's/King Piccolo's that was spawned upon his impending death immediately after Goku punched right through him, although as we see in Z the reincarnated Piccolo gradually loses his inherited evilness although even some of his earlier scenes in the original DB series sets up subtle hints that he's not quite the same as his late father i.e. the part where he saves the little boy from the falling debris. However, it was media only once he had trained Gohan and nobly sacrifice himself shielding the latter against Nappa's attack do we really see the true change and even more so by the Namek arc onward as he grows by merging with Nail and eventually with Kami again bringing things full circle.

When Piccolo jr debutet there was a moment where he was talking and they showed Piccolo Daimao, like Daimao was talking through Piccolo Jr's body, this is another hint that makes me think they're the same being

[MasenkoHA]

Didn’t they straight up say he was reincarnated?

[KBABZ]

Didn’t they straight up say he was reincarnated?

Yeah that was the big scene where Jr. says (in the dub) "I am King Piccolo, reincarnated!!".

I still feel that they are separate individuals despite this, especially since even the manga begins treating them that way. Jr. is at first dead-set on continuing what his father/past life set him out to do, but after Goku spares him, he goes 7 years without doing anything except develop the Makangosappo, and doesn't get any stronger than Goku does either. He seems to forget his mission after being restored on Namek!

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Saving the boy from the debris was filler, otherwise you're correct.

Yeah, i know that particular scene was added by the anime staff but it was just something i though of although yeah it's not canon to the manga as the vast majority of the filler material is.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

They are for the most part as Piccolo/Ma Jr. was Piccolo Daimo's/King Piccolo's that was spawned upon his impending death immediately after Goku punched right through him, although as we see in Z the reincarnated Piccolo gradually loses his inherited evilness although even some of his earlier scenes in the original DB series sets up subtle hints that he's not quite the same as his late father i.e. the part where he saves the little boy from the falling debris. However, it was media only once he had trained Gohan and nobly sacrifice himself shielding the latter against Nappa's attack do we really see the true change and even more so by the Namek arc onward as he grows by merging with Nail and eventually with Kami again bringing things full circle.

When Piccolo jr debutet there was a moment where he was talking and they showed Piccolo Daimao, like Daimao was talking through Piccolo Jr's body, this is another hint that makes me think they're the same being

Overall they pretty much are, though as KBABZ said after Goku defeated him at the 23rd Budokai he was basically dormant for that span of time between then and the start of the Z portin of the story. It seems at some point around the Namek arc he changed even more so than he'd already up to that time.

[Piccolo_Daima]

Didn’t they straight up say he was reincarnated?

Yeah that was the big scene where Jr. says (in the dub) "I am King Piccolo, reincarnated!!".

I still feel that they are separate individuals despite this, especially since even the manga begins treating them that way. Jr. is at first dead-set on continuing what his father/past life set him out to do, but after Goku spares him, he goes 7 years without doing anything except develop the Makangosappo, and doesn't get any stronger than Goku does either. He seems to forget his mission after being restored on Namek!

In that scene I posted, Piccolo was telling Goku this" The last time you beat me because you got lucky, but this time I'm gonna beat you because I got much stronger"

So this means, they're the same person

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Didn’t they straight up say he was reincarnated?

Yeah that was the big scene where Jr. says (in the dub) "I am King Piccolo, reincarnated!!".

I still feel that they are separate individuals despite this, especially since even the manga begins treating them that way. Jr. is at first dead-set on continuing what his father/past life set him out to do, but after Goku spares him, he goes 7 years without doing anything except develop the Makangosappo, and doesn't get any stronger than Goku does either. He seems to forget his mission after being restored on Namek!

In that scene I posted, Piccolo was telling Goku this" The last time you beat me because you got lucky, but this time I'm gonna beat you because I got much stronger"

So this means, they're the same being.

Yeah it appeared las if the late King was actually channeling through his offspring there as his voice breaks through as Piccolo Jr. speaks, so that's basically saying they are one in the same.

[Piccolo_Daima]

Overall they pretty much are, though as KBABZ said after Goku defeated him at the 23rd Budokai he was basically dormant for that span of time between then and the start of the Z portin of the story. It seems at some point around the Namek arc he changed even more so than he'd already up to that time.

He wasn't dormant, he was developing the Makankosappo to kill Goku, and he finaly did it.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Overall they pretty much are, though as KBABZ said after Goku defeated him at the 23rd Budokai he was basically dormant for that span of time between then and the start of the Z portin of the story. It seems at some point around the Namek arc he changed even more so than he'd already up to that time.

He wasn't dormant, he was developing the Makankosappo to kill Goku, and he did finaly did it.

Then after doing so he took Gohan and trained him over the year prior to Vegeta and Nappa's arrival for what at first seems to be nefarious intentions, but it appears as though being around him finally planted the seed of change that was first shown when he sacrificed himself shielding the latter from Nappa's attack then really came around the Namek arc especially when he merges with Nail and fights Freeza, then again when fate come full circle as he merges with Kami to fight the Androids

Of course also noted when Kami mentioned to Mr. Popo the change from what happened when a member of the Mazoku "Demon" clan like Piccolo Daimao or his spawn (Tambourine, Piano.etc) would kill someone, as they mentioned Raditz not being cast into an eternal purgatory state of suffering as so many previous victims had been and rather to the Next World.

[KBABZ]

In that scene I posted, Piccolo was telling Goku this" The last time you beat me because you got lucky, but this time I'm gonna beat you because I got much stronger"

So this means, they're the same person

At the same time though, eventually the manga itself starts treating Jr. as a different person when discussing Daimao.

He wasn't dormant, he was developing the Makankosappo to kill Goku, and he did finaly did it.

Yeah sure, but Piccolo uses the move only because it can stop Raditz. He had clearly already developed and perfected the move by the time Raditz arrives, and as we saw when they first met, Piccolo was hardly jumping out of his seat to kill Goku once and for all, and Goku is LITERALLY wrapped up in taking care of his son in a time of peace. No better time to strike, and yet he doesn't. Daimao would never have been so sloppy!

[Grimlock]

and then right as he was dying he transferred his memories and his essence,

What? When did that happen? I've just read the manga to make sure and that didn't happen at all. Piccolo Daimaoh just asked Piccolo to avenge him (it was pretty much the same thing Bardock did in the TV Special).

As for the thread's question: no. They are different individuals. Doesn't make sense to say they are the same, it'd be the same as saying Bardock is Goku and King Vegeta is Vegeta.

By the way, for a while, Old Kaioshin was referred as "Dai Kaioshin" in the manga, but we all know that he isn't Dai Kaioshin, as that entity was absorbed by Majin Buu.

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

and then right as he was dying he transferred his memories and his essence,

What? When did that happen? I've just read the manga to make sure and that didn't happen at all. Piccolo Daimaoh just asked Piccolo to avenge him (it was pretty much the same thing Bardock did in the TV Special).

Piccolo Junior definitely shares some (if not all) memories of the previous Piccolo; he remembers Goku's one uninjured arm being enough to take him down, so Junior makes sure to immobilize all of Goku's limbs.

[Piccolo_Daima]

In that scene I posted, Piccolo was telling Goku this" The last time you beat me because you got lucky, but this time I'm gonna beat you because I got much stronger"

So this means, they're the same person

At the same time though, eventually the manga itself starts treating Jr. as a different person when discussing Daimao.

He wasn't dormant, he was developing the Makankosappo to kill Goku, and he did finaly did it.

Yeah sure, but Piccolo uses the move only because it can stop Raditz. He had clearly already developed and perfected the move by the time Raditz arrives, and as we saw when they first met, Piccolo was hardly jumping out of his seat to kill Goku once and for all, and Goku is LITERALLY wrapped up in taking care of his son in a time of peace. No better time to strike, and yet he doesn't. Daimao would never have been so sloppy!

Considering that Uub is a reincarnation of Majin Buu without any of the evil or memories of his previous life, I don't think Piccolo Junior being "less evil" than Daimao means they're not the same.

Piccolo often says "when Kami and I were one being", not "when Kami and my father were the same being". Besides, why didn't Kami die when Goku killed Daimao? Goku once said new Piccolo was packed in with "everything" of the old one, so it's not like they're a regular parent and child.

If Piccolo Jr and Daimao aren't the same being, then Kami would have died when Daimao was killed by Goku.

[Piccolo_Daima]

and then right as he was dying he transferred his memories and his essence,

What? When did that happen? I've just read the manga to make sure and that didn't happen at all. Piccolo Daimaoh just asked Piccolo to avenge him (it was pretty much the same thing Bardock did in the TV Special).

As for the thread's question: no. They are different individuals. Doesn't make sense to say they are the same, it'd be the same as saying Bardock is Goku and King Vegeta is Vegeta.

Vegeta and Goku don't share the memories of their fathers, and they never talked about their fathers like being themselves, in the Tournament 23 saga, before Goku and Piccolo Jr fought, Piccolo told Goku that the last time they fought Goku was just a little boy who got lucky, but this time he's gonna beat Goku because he got much stronger, so why did Piccolo Jr talk like he was Daimao if they're not the same being?

I mean, in the Freezer saga, Vegeta never said "Freezer you killed me many years ago (when freezer kiiled Vegeta's father), but this time I'm much stronger so I'm gonna beat you", you know why? because Vegeta is not the reincarnation of King Vegeta, he's just his son.

Another diference is Piccolo Jr some times says he is the King of Demons, while Vegeta says he's the prince of sayans, Vegeta doesn't say he's the king of sayans, he says he's the prince because he's the king's son.

If Piccolo Jr was Daimao's son, he would say he's the prince of demons, not the king.

[Grimlock]

Piccolo Junior definitely shares some (if not all) memories of the previous Piccolo; he remembers Goku's one uninjured arm being enough to take him down, so Junior makes sure to immobilize all of Goku's limbs.

It seems I never liked that idea, and so I threw it away from my memories because I really don't remember that. Anyway, despite that, sharing memories still doesn't necessarily make two individuals the same person.

If Piccolo Jr and Daimao aren't the same being, then Kami would have died when Daimao was killed by Goku.

Or, when Piccolo Daimaoh died, Kami's connection passed onto Piccolo's existence right away, allowing him to continue to live. And since we're in the realm of "sharing memories" possibilities, this can very well be what happened.