DB could work as Cartoon Series?

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Yes there's a difference between the two concepts, but justice is just morals in a social context. You're drawing an artificial distinction. I get you're point and don't agree AT ALL. It doesn't set him apart from other superheroes. The point of Superheroes is their dedication to justice. Hell, The Punisher is driven by a sense of justice. He thinks the justice system is screwed up so he punishes criminals because otherwise they would hurt innocent people and that is unjust. It is not unique to Batman.
You said yourself there's a difference. That social context. And a lot of superheroes, like Spider-Man or Superman, just don't care about society. They are dedicated to morality, not justice. Punisher is another exception, and part of that is because he is human like Batman. Seems like the closer to human they are, the more they care about society and justice.

I mean, it's pretty blatant and explicit in the comic books, Batman's relationship with justice. It's not just my own interpretation, it's right there on the page.

Adamant wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:22 pm
Writing something unrelated to Dragonball and then calling one of the characters Bulma is not "doing something new and different With Dragonball. Australia made a JttW TV series in 2018 named The New Legends of Monkey, do you think they should've done a search-and-replace on "Tripitaka" to "Bulma" in their scripts and cashed in on how this was a new and exciting take on Dragonball for dumb audience members who didn't know the difference?
But see it's not truly "unrelated" to Dragon Ball then, if it's got JttW connections. As well as characters and settings specifically from DB.

If Australia wanted it to be a new take on Dragon Ball, then yes, they could have injected Dragon Ball characters and elements into the scripts. Would that not still be a "new take" on Dragon Ball? I didn't say it wasn't a flawed or inauthentic adaptation. Maybe even lacking DB's "soul". But it's still *some* kind of adaptation. And could still be successful.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Adamant » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:25 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:58 pm
But see it's not truly "unrelated" to Dragon Ball then, if it's got JttW connections. As well as characters and settings specifically from DB.

If Australia wanted it to be a new take on Dragon Ball, then yes, they could have injected Dragon Ball characters and elements into the scripts. Would that not still be a "new take" on Dragon Ball? I didn't say it wasn't a flawed or inauthentic adaptation. Maybe even lacking DB's "soul". But it's still *some* kind of adaptation. And could still be successful.
But you're seemingly arguing that it would somehow be beneficial for viewers that some guy changed a character's name in his martial arts script to "Bulma" and pretended that suddenly made it a new and exciting take on Dragonball. In what way does anyone benefit from that? That example you pitched earlier, how does anyone benefit from miss tech wiz being named Bulma when you can just call her something else and sell it as the unrelated-to-Dragonball thing it actually is.

"New take on x" doesn't just mean "one of the characters has the same name as one of the characters in the original work". There's no need for your modern-day-JttW-with-a-martial-arts-meets-hi-tech-theme TV series premise to pretend it has anything to do with Dragonball. And if it's actually worth watching, it shouldn't need to do so in order to be successful.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:35 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:58 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Yes there's a difference between the two concepts, but justice is just morals in a social context. You're drawing an artificial distinction. I get you're point and don't agree AT ALL. It doesn't set him apart from other superheroes. The point of Superheroes is their dedication to justice. Hell, The Punisher is driven by a sense of justice. He thinks the justice system is screwed up so he punishes criminals because otherwise they would hurt innocent people and that is unjust. It is not unique to Batman.
You said yourself there's a difference. That social context. And a lot of superheroes, like Spider-Man or Superman, just don't care about society. They are dedicated to morality, not justice. Punisher is another exception, and part of that is because he is human like Batman. Seems like the closer to human they are, the more they care about society and justice.

I mean, it's pretty blatant and explicit in the comic books, Batman's relationship with justice. It's not just my own interpretation, it's right there on the page.

Adamant wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:22 pm
Writing something unrelated to Dragonball and then calling one of the characters Bulma is not "doing something new and different With Dragonball. Australia made a JttW TV series in 2018 named The New Legends of Monkey, do you think they should've done a search-and-replace on "Tripitaka" to "Bulma" in their scripts and cashed in on how this was a new and exciting take on Dragonball for dumb audience members who didn't know the difference?
But see it's not truly "unrelated" to Dragon Ball then, if it's got JttW connections. As well as characters and settings specifically from DB.

If Australia wanted it to be a new take on Dragon Ball, then yes, they could have injected Dragon Ball characters and elements into the scripts. Would that not still be a "new take" on Dragon Ball? I didn't say it wasn't a flawed or inauthentic adaptation. Maybe even lacking DB's "soul". But it's still *some* kind of adaptation. And could still be successful.
Then the question is who wrote that? Of course they are dedicated to justice and to say that Superman and Spidey don't care about society is on its face ridiculous. Superman cares about society hence why he's trying to save people and why he's a journalist. The absurd thing in this conversation is you are making completely contradictory statements. How do you not see that saving people is caring about society and justice?

What writer wrote something like that? It's meant to sound good but it is actually really silly when you stop to really think about it, including statements like Batman being human is why he cares more about justice as if that was anything more than a shallow observation. It's as shallow as using a brand name and changing everything but a few superficial elements.

This whole change things to their core but retain a few elements to a superficial degree and it is still DB is silly. If anything this is more likely to put me off enjoying the show. It would feel like a hollow cash grab whereas if it's an original story, I would be more inclined to go along for the ride and might say "hey, that's kinda like DB".
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:37 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:35 pm
Of course they are dedicated to justice and to say that Superman and Spidey don't care about society is on its face ridiculous. Superman cares about society hence why he's trying to save people and why he's a journalist. The absurd thing in this conversation is you are making completely contradictory statements. How do you not see that saving people is caring about society and justice?
Clark Kent is a journalist, I'll give you that. But that's Kent, not Superman. Any interest in society seems like it goes right out the window when he becomes Superman. At that point all he seems to care about is saving lives and fighting evil. Sure, he always returns to his job at the Planet afterwards, but what are his main priorities? Superman or journalism? I'm not huge into Superman so I can't say for sure. Isn't the whole reporter thing just a way for Clark to stay close to the action in order to put his Superman persona to use?

Like you said, I guess I just don't see how saving people equals caring about society and justice.


Adamant wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:25 pm
But you're seemingly arguing that it would somehow be beneficial for viewers that some guy changed a character's name in his martial arts script to "Bulma" and pretended that suddenly made it a new and exciting take on Dragonball. In what way does anyone benefit from that? That example you pitched earlier, how does anyone benefit from miss tech wiz being named Bulma when you can just call her something else and sell it as the unrelated-to-Dragonball thing it actually is.

"New take on x" doesn't just mean "one of the characters has the same name as one of the characters in the original work". There's no need for your modern-day-JttW-with-a-martial-arts-meets-hi-tech-theme TV series premise to pretend it has anything to do with Dragonball. And if it's actually worth watching, it shouldn't need to do so in order to be successful.
It wouldn't just be a re-imagined Bulma appearing in the series, but the other characters and elements as well.

I don't see how it wouldn't qualify as a "new take" on Dragon Ball. It seems self-explanatory to me. Nobody said it absolutely *needs* the Dragon Ball name to be successful. Just that with it the show could be that much more successful. Or maybe the writers wouldn't be interested in doing the show to begin with if it doesn't have the Dragon Ball connections. It might be their fondness for the source material that drives them.

Everyone benefits in some way. The writers get to fulfill their creative vision and achieve success. The old fans get to see a new Dragon Ball. And the new fans get to experience Dragon Ball for the first time, albeit a new version.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:38 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:37 am
ABED wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:35 pm
Of course they are dedicated to justice and to say that Superman and Spidey don't care about society is on its face ridiculous. Superman cares about society hence why he's trying to save people and why he's a journalist. The absurd thing in this conversation is you are making completely contradictory statements. How do you not see that saving people is caring about society and justice?
Clark Kent is a journalist, I'll give you that. But that's Kent, not Superman. Any interest in society seems like it goes right out the window when he becomes Superman. At that point all he seems to care about is saving lives and fighting evil. Sure, he always returns to his job at the Planet afterwards, but what are his main priorities? Superman or journalism? I'm not huge into Superman so I can't say for sure. Isn't the whole reporter thing just a way for Clark to stay close to the action in order to put his Superman persona to use?

Like you said, I guess I just don't see how saving people equals caring about society and justice.


Adamant wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:25 pm
But you're seemingly arguing that it would somehow be beneficial for viewers that some guy changed a character's name in his martial arts script to "Bulma" and pretended that suddenly made it a new and exciting take on Dragonball. In what way does anyone benefit from that? That example you pitched earlier, how does anyone benefit from miss tech wiz being named Bulma when you can just call her something else and sell it as the unrelated-to-Dragonball thing it actually is.

"New take on x" doesn't just mean "one of the characters has the same name as one of the characters in the original work". There's no need for your modern-day-JttW-with-a-martial-arts-meets-hi-tech-theme TV series premise to pretend it has anything to do with Dragonball. And if it's actually worth watching, it shouldn't need to do so in order to be successful.
It wouldn't just be a re-imagined Bulma appearing in the series, but the other characters and elements as well.

I don't see how it wouldn't qualify as a "new take" on Dragon Ball. It seems self-explanatory to me. Nobody said it absolutely *needs* the Dragon Ball name to be successful. Just that with it the show could be that much more successful. Or maybe the writers wouldn't be interested in doing the show to begin with if it doesn't have the Dragon Ball connections. It might be their fondness for the source material that drives them.

Everyone benefits in some way. The writers get to fulfill their creative vision and achieve success. The old fans get to see a new Dragon Ball. And the new fans get to experience Dragon Ball for the first time, albeit a new version.
Justice is not merely concerned with society at large.

That's not a creative vision, it's hack work, and it's not new Dragon Ball. It's Dragon Ball in name only.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Toxin45 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:16 am

Well probably wouldn't work for anyone but we will try

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:35 pm

They tried just that in the 90s, but did so through dubbing the original series to turn it into an 80s action show, the kind with action figures and cereal.

If we did it fully our way, Son Goku would be a lantern-jawed Superman clone spouting cheesy one-liners, and there'd be even more dorky kid-friendly jokes. Muten Roshi might become a Yoda clone; Krillin would probably be a wise guy who's just walkin' 'ere. Freeza would lose his effeminate simple design and instead be a Shredder recolor, do not steal. Vegeta would probably be a Mongol, a poor and unfortunate ripoff of Genghis Khan. And ki would be like the Speed Force or Mana, with Goku getting his strength from the Pole of Power, his tail, and the dragon balls. That's right— in order to use Kaioken or Super Saiyan, Goku has to collect the dragon balls and wish upon their power. Otherwise, he's basically just a dimwitted archaeologist, with Gohan being his disobedient son who always gets into trouble.

Ah, I love imagining Americanized 90s Dragon Ball.


Nowadays, it'd probably have an inoffensive CalArts art style rather than whatever you called the anatomically-decent generic 80s style.
In both situations, it'd be episodic, but the latter might go the route of having a lightly overarching plot across seasons that eventually builds up.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:12 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:35 pm
They tried just that in the 90s, but did so through dubbing the original series to turn it into an 80s action show, the kind with action figures and cereal.

If we did it fully our way, Son Goku would be a lantern-jawed Superman clone spouting cheesy one-liners, and there'd be even more dorky kid-friendly jokes. Muten Roshi might become a Yoda clone; Krillin would probably be a wise guy who's just walkin' 'ere. Freeza would lose his effeminate simple design and instead be a Shredder recolor, do not steal. Vegeta would probably be a Mongol, a poor and unfortunate ripoff of Genghis Khan. And ki would be like the Speed Force or Mana, with Goku getting his strength from the Pole of Power, his tail, and the dragon balls. That's right— in order to use Kaioken or Super Saiyan, Goku has to collect the dragon balls and wish upon their power. Otherwise, he's basically just a dimwitted archaeologist, with Gohan being his disobedient son who always gets into trouble.

Ah, I love imagining Americanized 90s Dragon Ball.


Nowadays, it'd probably have an inoffensive CalArts art style rather than whatever you called the anatomically-decent generic 80s style.
In both situations, it'd be episodic, but the latter might go the route of having a lightly overarching plot across seasons that eventually builds up.
Isn’t “CalArts style” just a faulty term that John Kricfalusi coined in reference to animation that bares some kind of resemblance to Disney movies? I can never get a real handle on what it’s supposed to refer to. I used to think it referred specifically to the circular and simplistic style that shows like Steven Universe and that She-Ra reboot use, but I‘ve also seen it being applied to cartoons that don’t quite look like those examples.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:55 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:12 pm
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:35 pm
They tried just that in the 90s, but did so through dubbing the original series to turn it into an 80s action show, the kind with action figures and cereal.

If we did it fully our way, Son Goku would be a lantern-jawed Superman clone spouting cheesy one-liners, and there'd be even more dorky kid-friendly jokes. Muten Roshi might become a Yoda clone; Krillin would probably be a wise guy who's just walkin' 'ere. Freeza would lose his effeminate simple design and instead be a Shredder recolor, do not steal. Vegeta would probably be a Mongol, a poor and unfortunate ripoff of Genghis Khan. And ki would be like the Speed Force or Mana, with Goku getting his strength from the Pole of Power, his tail, and the dragon balls. That's right— in order to use Kaioken or Super Saiyan, Goku has to collect the dragon balls and wish upon their power. Otherwise, he's basically just a dimwitted archaeologist, with Gohan being his disobedient son who always gets into trouble.

Ah, I love imagining Americanized 90s Dragon Ball.


Nowadays, it'd probably have an inoffensive CalArts art style rather than whatever you called the anatomically-decent generic 80s style.
In both situations, it'd be episodic, but the latter might go the route of having a lightly overarching plot across seasons that eventually builds up.
Isn’t “CalArts style” just a faulty term that John Kricfalusi coined in reference to animation that bares some kind of resemblance to Disney movies? I can never get a real handle on what it’s supposed to refer to. I used to think it referred specifically to the circular and simplistic style that shows like Steven Universe and that She-Ra reboot use, but I‘ve also seen it being applied to cartoons that don’t quite look like those examples.
It's basically this:
Image
Image

I used to call it "America's generic caricature style" as a reference to what I used to call anime ("Japan's generic caricature style"), but the truth is that these styles come and go with the decades (why Japan kept to a relatively static, ultra-slowly-evolving caricaturization across the decades, I don't know and I'd love to hear input from any Japanese users)
Image


Also, the CalArts look, as far as I'm aware, probably was inspired by the Scott Pilgrim art style more than anything from Disney. I'm probably turbo-wrong, but that's the earliest I recall this general look, and plenty of creators who make shows and comic books that utilize the CalArts style outright say that the'yre fans of Scott Pilgrim and its art style.


Hmm..


You know, EARLY Dragon Ball could work in CalArts
Image

I mentioned a few times before that early DB is basically a demented kung fu Loony Tunes; if you keep the slapstick, it would definitely work out at least passably well, though the choreography and pacing would be utter shit in comparison.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Super Sonic » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:52 pm

Remembering this topic, looked up some things and beside the really more popular stuff like Voltron and Speed Racer, seems they recently made a new Superbook series that's western instead of Japanese. Went the CG route which can't really see with DB. For those not familiar, here's the Japanese intro of the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZrXUF2p540

And here's the original's English opening we got and only have as the series subbed doesn't have much of a market stateside:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xaLM8gfs6Q

And here's the new series' opening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz-obLF2OyQ

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Planetnamek » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:02 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:54 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:41 pm
I often fine myself pining for great animated programing for ten ... fifteen ... twenty ... and twenty five years ago. These have to have been truly special for me and millions of our people to carry a torch for them for so long.
The DCAU is a great example of talented people who not only understood the source material, but to a lot of fans, even surpassed it. Batman for example has had countless interpretations over the past 8 decades, be it in or out of comics, yet the DCAU's version and his world remain the definitive version for a lot of people, including myself. If someone is talented enough and has the right resources, I believe they can make DB work in whatever media they chose, be it a westernized cartoon or even a live action movie.
not to mention it introduced several great original characters who got fleshed out even further later on(Renee Montoya was revealed to be a lesbian and took the mantle of "The Question" and of course Harley Quinn got her own solo series in the New 52 and her own cartoon, which is really damn good and you should totally watch it BTW).
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:08 am

Planetnamek wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:02 am
not to mention it introduced several great original characters who got fleshed out even further later on(Renee Montoya was revealed to be a lesbian and took the mantle of "The Question" and of course Harley Quinn got her own solo series in the New 52 and her own cartoon, which is really damn good and you should totally watch it BTW).
Not only did it introduce new (now classic) characters, it also completely revamped older ones to what we know them as today. Mr. Freeze going from a D list joke character to an A list member. Bruce Wayne's characteristics that we're familiar with started in the show.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:49 am

Dragon Ball Heroes is a cartoon verson of Dragon Ball.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by SaiyanEpic » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:43 pm

Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:49 am
Dragon Ball Heroes is a cartoon verson of Dragon Ball.
Yup that's why it s quite meh in my opinion :D

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by AlexSketchy04 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:53 pm

To be honest, i would love to see an american adaptation of Dragon Ball, just to see how they will mess it up

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:24 am

AlexSketchy04 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:53 pm
To be honest, i would love to see an american adaptation of Dragon Ball, just to see how they will mess it up
I think there's a 95% chance they'd mess it up completely, but there's still that 5% where it'd fall in the hands of people who know what they're doing, supported by a studio that believes in their vision and in the franchise's potential.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by SaiyanEpic » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:08 am

AlexSketchy04 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:53 pm
To be honest, i would love to see an american adaptation of Dragon Ball, just to see how they will mess it up
well we are already sure that they will, sadly lol

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:30 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:12 pm
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:35 pm
They tried just that in the 90s, but did so through dubbing the original series to turn it into an 80s action show, the kind with action figures and cereal.

If we did it fully our way, Son Goku would be a lantern-jawed Superman clone spouting cheesy one-liners, and there'd be even more dorky kid-friendly jokes. Muten Roshi might become a Yoda clone; Krillin would probably be a wise guy who's just walkin' 'ere. Freeza would lose his effeminate simple design and instead be a Shredder recolor, do not steal. Vegeta would probably be a Mongol, a poor and unfortunate ripoff of Genghis Khan. And ki would be like the Speed Force or Mana, with Goku getting his strength from the Pole of Power, his tail, and the dragon balls. That's right— in order to use Kaioken or Super Saiyan, Goku has to collect the dragon balls and wish upon their power. Otherwise, he's basically just a dimwitted archaeologist, with Gohan being his disobedient son who always gets into trouble.

Ah, I love imagining Americanized 90s Dragon Ball.


Nowadays, it'd probably have an inoffensive CalArts art style rather than whatever you called the anatomically-decent generic 80s style.
In both situations, it'd be episodic, but the latter might go the route of having a lightly overarching plot across seasons that eventually builds up.
Isn’t “CalArts style” just a faulty term that John Kricfalusi coined in reference to animation that bares some kind of resemblance to Disney movies? I can never get a real handle on what it’s supposed to refer to. I used to think it referred specifically to the circular and simplistic style that shows like Steven Universe and that She-Ra reboot use, but I‘ve also seen it being applied to cartoons that don’t quite look like those examples.
Yeah John K coined that term to refer to stuff like Iron Giant, not the flash-style animation of stuff like Adventure Time, Gumball, Star Vs Forces of Evil, etc. So i'm not sure why those shows always get pegged as "Cal-ARTS"(well I kind of know why, it's because alt-right dipshits like The Quartering tend to use that term to refer to any 2010s show that does not appeal to them)
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