DB could work as Cartoon Series?

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Super Sonic » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:48 pm

Technically, DB is a cartoon series. Yeah, there are the crazy otaku who will call me a blasphemer for calling a Japanese cartoon a cartoon, but that's what it is. If tey mean remade in different animation, I'd say not so. As for guys talking about remakes, interestingly enough, back when DBZ started on CN, it was followed by a great remake of a classic cartoon that was better than its original.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by dougo13 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:01 am

Sorry, but no. The teenage version of Jonny Quest was not better than the original, not in my opinion anyway. But I guess we come from different eras with me being a 60's kid that absolutely loved the original series for what it was...a boy's adventure show. It was meant to be watched by pre-teen BOYS. By the time the teen version showed up the world had turned. I watched the teen version and wasn't impressed. But I come from a time where there was a clear understanding that some media was meant to be watched or read by boys over girls and vice versa. The Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew, the old pulp magazines, etc. That's just the way it was. Toei in the 1970s actually animated many of the old classics like Little Women. I have some of the tapes but never watched them.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:08 am

dougo13 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:01 am
Sorry, but no. The teenage version of Jonny Quest was not better than the original, not in my opinion anyway. But I guess we come from different eras with me being a 60's kid that absolutely loved the original series for what it was...a boy's adventure show. It was meant to be watched by pre-teen BOYS. By the time the teen version showed up the world had turned. I watched the teen version and wasn't impressed. But I come from a time where there was a clear understanding that some media was meant to be watched or read by boys over girls and vice versa. The Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew, the old pulp magazines, etc. That's just the way it was. Toei in the 1970s actually animated many of the old classics like Little Women. I have some of the tapes but never watched them.
It could just be that you are a 60s kid and thus not the target demo for a kids show in the 90s and perhaps NOT anything to do with the show itself.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:44 pm

I watched Real Adventures of Jonny Quest on Toonami as a little kid, and looking back on it now all grown up i view the show as it's own thing along with those two TV movies (Jonny's Golden Quest, Cyber Insects.etc) because it's no doubt quite different from the original '60s series. Both of them clearly reflect the respective eras in which they were made.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:41 pm

An americanized/western remake of Dragon Ball, or any other property could totally work. Or fail. Just like any and every property ever. I'm not saying that anyone could make it work, but there are several talented creators out there.

I often fine myself pining for great animated programing for ten ... fifteen ... twenty ... and twenty five years ago. These have to have been truly special for me and millions of our people to carry a torch for them for so long.

Dragon Ball was already kind of americanized in the past and it was hugely successful. So we already know something could succeed. Any one worried about the mystical part of the series should realized that the west has had plenty of animated series with those similar elements before.

In the end, it comes down to who would make this. If they are talented enough it would work.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:54 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:41 pm
I often fine myself pining for great animated programing for ten ... fifteen ... twenty ... and twenty five years ago. These have to have been truly special for me and millions of our people to carry a torch for them for so long.
The DCAU is a great example of talented people who not only understood the source material, but to a lot of fans, even surpassed it. Batman for example has had countless interpretations over the past 8 decades, be it in or out of comics, yet the DCAU's version and his world remain the definitive version for a lot of people, including myself. If someone is talented enough and has the right resources, I believe they can make DB work in whatever media they chose, be it a westernized cartoon or even a live action movie.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:17 pm

The difference is DB was one story written by a single author. It is his singular vision and the characters are the characters. American superhero comics are written by numerous authors and with a wide variety of interpretations.

It isn't just a matter of finding a talented writer. DB's had its heyday and lightning in a bottle is hard enough to capture once.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:58 pm

I think talented writers are probably all that is necessary. DCAU gained its following because of its talents, since the average DCAU viewer likely knew next to nothing about Batman and the DC Universe. Singular vision or "multiple visions" in the comic books ultimately meant the least.

Just take the Dragon Ball source material and make it your own, then see what happens.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:08 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:58 pm
I think talented writers are probably all that is necessary. DCAU gained its following because of its talents, since the average DCAU viewer likely knew next to nothing about Batman and the DC Universe. Singular vision or "multiple visions" in the comic books ultimately meant the least.

Just take the Dragon Ball source material and make it your own, then see what happens.
This is just wrong. It wasn't just because they had talented writers. It was right time, right place, right writers with the right ideas at the right point in their careers. Even great writers have peaks and valleys.

The whole take someone else's ideas and make them your own will lead to hacks. If you are going to make them your own, why make something that's actually your own? Remember, George Lucas was going to try and make a Flash Gordon movie but couldn't get the rights. It ended up being the best thing for him.

And the idea that the average DCAU viewer knew next to nothing about Batman is ridiculous. Even in 92, Batman was ubiquitous.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:54 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:08 pm
The whole take someone else's ideas and make them your own will lead to hacks. If you are going to make them your own, why make something that's actually your own? Remember, George Lucas was going to try and make a Flash Gordon movie but couldn't get the rights. It ended up being the best thing for him.
You could ask the same question of the Batman TAS writers. Why didn't they just do something that's their own instead? Yeah, they could have done that, and maybe would have been more successful, but did doing Batman lead to hacks?

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:08 pm
And the idea that the average DCAU viewer knew next to nothing about Batman is ridiculous. Even in 92, Batman was ubiquitous.
Ubiquity does not equal knowledge. Even if they had some awareness of Batman, the average viewer was probably mostly uninformed about the property. My point being that the success of the show did not rely upon its connections to the source material, but upon the writers' talents.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:54 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:08 pm
The whole take someone else's ideas and make them your own will lead to hacks. If you are going to make them your own, why make something that's actually your own? Remember, George Lucas was going to try and make a Flash Gordon movie but couldn't get the rights. It ended up being the best thing for him.
You could ask the same question of the Batman TAS writers. Why didn't they just do something that's their own instead? Yeah, they could have done that, and maybe would have been more successful, but did doing Batman lead to hacks?

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:08 pm
And the idea that the average DCAU viewer knew next to nothing about Batman is ridiculous. Even in 92, Batman was ubiquitous.
Ubiquity does not equal knowledge. Even if they had some awareness of Batman, the average viewer was probably mostly uninformed about the property. My point being that the success of the show did not rely upon its connections to the source material, but upon the writers' talents.
Beause superhero stories in America aren't written by any single author. They are structured to have an infinite middle.

Yes it does equal knowledge, hence being everywhere. They knew the important stuff. And the success of the series was dependent on the connections to the source material. It doesn't draw people in without Batman being a household name and coming off the heels of the first Tim Burton film.

And what have the DCAU folks done of any significance since? People have their day in the sun. The same goes for stories. DB has had its. What need is there to try in vain to recapture that magic?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:53 pm

The DCAU architects have all mainly stuck with comic stuff since JLU. It's been mostly cringey adult-aimed direct to home video films for them. There's really very little money in battle cartoons in the US, even for kids shows at this point.

Hell, the best thing to come from modern DC animation was a new entry to the DCAU: Justice League versus the Fatale Five.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:54 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:17 pm
The difference is DB was one story written by a single author. It is his singular vision and the characters are the characters. American superhero comics are written by numerous authors and with a wide variety of interpretations.
I'd take a different interpretation over another Tournament of power any day. With the exception of the BOG movie, Toriyama's contribution to the franchise after the manga wouldn't be very hard to top.
ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:08 pm
The idea that the average DCAU viewer knew next to nothing about Batman is ridiculous.
That's exactly the case, as a lot of fans were introduced to Batman through the animated show, not the comics, me being one of them. The same goes for Superman and the Justice League.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:59 pm

I'm sure that was a lot of kids first exposure but everyone knows who he is and his world through pop cultural osmosis, like Star wars. Everyone knows the origin story, his supporting cast, and his villains.

I like the tournament of power but you are helping make my point for me. It's not always about getting a good writer or artist. Toriyama had his day with DB. It's no longer what it once was and never will be again. He captured lightning in a bottle and the story went on for 10 years.
Hell, the best thing to come from modern DC animation was a new entry to the DCAU: Justice League versus the Fatale Five.
Shudder, what a boring movie.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm
Because superhero stories in America aren't written by any single author. They are structured to have an infinite middle.
I'm not sure why the comics having multiple authors gives the DCAU writers more of a right to do shows than someone doing another Dragon Ball show. The comics are the comics and the adaptations are the adaptations. Someone doing an adaptation for television isn't the same as another writer coming on board the comics.

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm
Yes it does equal knowledge, hence being everywhere. They knew the important stuff. And the success of the series was dependent on the connections to the source material. It doesn't draw people in without Batman being a household name and coming off the heels of the first Tim Burton film.
I don't think that anyone could possibly know "the important stuff" via pop cultural osmosis or the Burton films. I had seen them and the Adam West stuff but still knew next to nothing about Batman. I disagree that everyone knew his origin, supporting cast, and villains. Bits and pieces here or there, but that's it.

If anything, BTAS was the first time for most to begin to get a sense of Batman and his world. You mentioned timing, well it was advantageous timing for them to do the show when they did, at a time when Batman's source material had not been delved into much on screen. Which allowed them to succeed on their own merits.

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm
And what have the DCAU folks done of any significance since? People have their day in the sun. The same goes for stories. DB has had its. What need is there to try in vain to recapture that magic?
What I'm saying is that the magic hasn't been captured yet, the magic outside the original versions. The DCAU got their chance to tell their version of Batman, but no one has done the Dragon Ball re-telling yet. No one has had their time in the sun in this context.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:05 am

It's already been adapted. I don't see the point in doing it again.
MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:52 pm
I disagree that everyone knew his origin, supporting cast, and villains. Bits and pieces here or there, but that's it.
Feel free to disagree but you're wrong. People know he saw his parents were murdered as a kid, they know his sidekick, they know his allies like Alfred and Gordon, they know a good number of his rogues gallery.

When I was talking about timing, I meant that Batman was HUGELY popular after the first Burton film came out several years earlier and started Batmania and proved a Batman that wasn't the goofy Adam West series could work. I remember all this because I was there. I experienced it all first hand.
What I'm saying is that the magic hasn't been captured yet, the magic outside the original versions. The DCAU got their chance to tell their version of Batman, but no one has done the Dragon Ball re-telling yet. No one has had their time in the sun in this context.
Except that it did, it's called Dragon Ball. What does this "retelling" even mean?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Aim » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:00 am

Bastardize the series further? No thanks. Dragon Ball itself is unique even for manga and anime, turning it into a "Western Cartoon" where the animators and companies do not put in the amount of effort that companies in Japan doesn't sound very appealing.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:22 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:05 am
It's already been adapted. I don't see the point in doing it again.
And Batman's constantly being adapted. Someone will always have a different take on the material.

ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:05 am
MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:52 pm
I disagree that everyone knew his origin, supporting cast, and villains. Bits and pieces here or there, but that's it.
Feel free to disagree but you're wrong. People know he saw his parents were murdered as a kid, they know his sidekick, they know his allies like Alfred and Gordon, they know a good number of his rogues gallery.
That's a bare bones understanding of the Batman mythos. The circumstances of his parents' death, the names and occupations of a handful of characters. Bits and pieces.

ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:05 am
When I was talking about timing, I meant that Batman was HUGELY popular after the first Burton film came out several years earlier and started Batmania and proved a Batman that wasn't the goofy Adam West series could work. I remember all this because I was there. I experienced it all first hand.
I agree about the timing part, but the Batmania somehow equating to knowledge of the source material is false. Batmania just meant that audiences would be more interested and receptive to a new series, not that they were suddenly clued into the Batman mythos. There may have been multiple factors that contributed to the DCAU's success, but connections to the source material wasn't one of them.

ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:05 am
What I'm saying is that the magic hasn't been captured yet, the magic outside the original versions. The DCAU got their chance to tell their version of Batman, but no one has done the Dragon Ball re-telling yet. No one has had their time in the sun in this context.
Except that it did, it's called Dragon Ball. What does this "retelling" even mean?
I suppose that I'm lumping both the manga and anime together as the "original version". The retelling would be the all-new animated series proposed.

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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:36 am

Batman was never one singular story with a beginning, middle, and end. It's always been a story with a bunch of different interpretations.
That's a bare bones understanding of the Batman mythos. The circumstances of his parents' death, the names and occupations of a handful of characters. Bits and pieces.
That's all that is necessary. They get the important part about what defines him. Everything else is window dressing.

What is the point of this useless and uneccessary hypothetical adaptation of DB?
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Re: DB could work as Cartoon Series?

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:15 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:36 am
That's all that is necessary. They get the important part about what defines him. Everything else is window dressing.
Saying a few names and a bare bones origin story is all that's necessary to know Batman is like saying knowing Goku and his friends are aliens who punch each other really hard is all that's necessary to know what DB is.
Aim wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:00 am
Turning it into a "Western Cartoon" where the animators and companies do not put in the amount of effort that companies in Japan doesn't sound very appealing.
We're not talking about what the average person and company would do, but rather the rare exception of someone who not only understand and respects DB, but has a vision that will bring something new to it, supported by a company that believes in said vision and is willing to give it the proper budget to be realized.

Look at Batman the Animated Series, under normal circumstances, it would've just been another forgettable toy commercial in a long line of of similar cartoons, but because of the conditions mentioned above, it became so much more than that.

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