On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

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On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:52 pm

Supposedly , the reason most of Funimation's dub was missing the insert songs was because the licensing for them wasn't folded in with the background music or something. But hold up. Sometimes the songs do play. Mezase Tenkaichi didn't play when Goku and Jackie Chun go fist to fist at the end of their fight in episode 28 but it did play during the preliminary round montage in episode 86. Dragon Ball Densetsu is removed in the 20+ times it appears in the show but it did play in the dub of Mystical Adventure which was dubbed around DBZ season 3 when the dub's budget was the cigarette coupons they paid their actors in. And of course With a Burning Heart defeat the Red Ribbon army was left in it was just blared out by Armstrong's mile a minute narration.

So what gives? Did Toei give them weird masters like how Funimation only had the one OP and ED for Dragon Ball? Did Funimation remove the songs to be less Japanese and appease their Toonami audience only to occasionally forget?

I just don't buy they weren't allowed to use the songs given that sometimes they did.

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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by PremiumSalt » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:05 pm

I think that Toei probably sent them weird masters and either FUNi's requests for better ones fell on deaf ears or they just didn't bother asking because they frankly didn't care.
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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:06 pm

My own theory on this thing is that it has something to do with the multi generation masters FUNi was given by Toei back in the early 2000's when they were starting with dubbing the show to air on Cartoon Network/Toonami, as in for some reason some songs are missing while others are in fact there in the proper place like the Burning Heart one. It really is inconsistent with most being absent while at the same time a few are still present as they are in the Japanese track.

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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:40 pm

I personally think it has to do with money to license the rights several of the songs in the first place, in particular for how long some of them can play.

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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:47 pm

No one knows for sure, but chances are it's either a money thing or a "the audio masters that Toei gave FUNimation just didn't have those songs on them"-thing.

Neither would surprise me, but my inclination is that it's the latter. The reason I say that is because FUNimation's dub is not the only dub to not have insert songs in them. Yes, FUNimation was an incredibly small company at the time with not a ton of money to toss around, but quite a number of other studios around the world that did have money to toss around still didn't get some insert songs. My belief is only reinforced by the fact that Toei was notorious back in the day for sending horrifically sub-par audio/video masters to their licensees.

The only dub known to have received--and for that matter, dubbed--all of the insert songs is the Catalan dub.
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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:19 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:47 pm
No one knows for sure, but chances are it's either a money thing or a "the audio masters that Toei gave FUNimation just didn't have those songs on them"-thing.

Neither would surprise me, but my inclination is that it's the latter. The reason I say that is because FUNimation's dub is not the only dub to not have insert songs in them. Yes, FUNimation was an incredibly small company at the time with not a ton of money to toss around, but quite a number of other studios around the world that did have money to toss around still didn't get some insert songs. My belief is only reinforced by the fact that Toei was notorious back in the day for sending horrifically sub-par audio/video masters to their licensees.

The only dub known to have received--and for that matter, dubbed--all of the insert songs is the Catalan dub.
Toei didn’t give them masters that included most of the insert songs is where I learn towards as well.

The “it was a money thing” really doesn’t add up when you look at the evidence. Like when you have fans who still want to claim that Funimation was forced to replaced the soundtrack music in Z due to licensing cost when that was easily debunked.

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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by LostTimeLord » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:13 pm

I would also have have thought that licensing is an unlikely reason because the DVDs have those songs on the Japanese track, and surely once the song's on the disc the cost of putting it on another track is negligible.

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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:31 pm

Another important part of the equation to keep in mind here is that Toei doesn't care about the show...that...much.

To elaborate, I certainly don't mean that Toei doesn't care about the quality of the show at all. Rather, I mean that they don't think of the show as being as important as people in other countries view it. As a corporation, Toei looked at the show as a way to sell merchandise, where the real money is for them. That's different from over here (and in other countries), where the show itself is the main product. Toei sort of looks at the show like, "Why do you care about the show? It's just the show." So to them, sending sub-par audio/video masters for international dubs just isn't that big a sin.

Heck, even among those in Japan who care about the show, it's still not treated that well. I know the Dragon Boxes are very highly regarded over here because of the consistent, relatively good quality...but apparently, many Japanese fans, while not repulsed by them, weren't exactly impressed by them either, noting the changed colors and audio that's not nearly as good as what they remember hearing from the show's original broadcast.

So, all that to say, Toei likely views the lack of insert songs in some of the dubbing materials they sent out (if it even crosses their minds tobegin with) with a, "Meh, whatever"-mentality.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by gokaiblue » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:08 pm

It might simply be due to them not wanting to pay the licensing fees for Broadcast use to Japan's equivalent of ASCAP or HarryFox, which would explain why they're not in the English dub of Dragon Ball the series but are in Mystical Adventure, as I don't think Mystical Adventure was on TV at any point in the states (I could be wrong).
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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:10 pm

gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:08 pm
It might simply be due to them not wanting to pay the licensing fees for Broadcast use to Japan's equivalent of ASCAP or HarryFox, which would explain why they're not in the English dub of Dragon Ball the series but are in Mystical Adventure, as I don't think Mystical Adventure was on TV at any point in the states (I could be wrong).
Again if they didn’t use any of the insert songs that would make sense. But they did use Mezaze Tenkaichi in episode 86 just not 28. And With a Burning Heart Defeat the Red Ribbon Army was kept as well.

The “they could ‘t afford/didn’t want to pay to license the songs” doesn’t really hold up under scrutiny.

Or hell Pioneer had no problem keeping in Gohan’s insert songs for the first two Z movies (and funimation was still the license holder) but Funimation couldn’t when they redubbed it?

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Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

Post by Mosaic » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:56 pm

    PremiumSalt wrote:
    Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:05 pm
    I think that Toei probably sent them weird masters and either FUNi's requests for better ones fell on deaf ears or they just didn't bother asking because they frankly didn't care.
    This.

    If you watch other international dubs, you'll notice they all have the same problem. Some include songs, some don't, some replace them, etc. A lot of Toei series have this problem. What usually happens is that Toei will attach speaking characters to the song vocals.

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    Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

    Post by DB_Fan1991 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:40 pm

    While this is the case for older Toei show dubs. It isn’t so much now as the Hebrew & Viz English dubs of Sailor Moon have the insert songs. Viz leaves them in Japanese while the Hebrew dub dubbed some and left others instrumental.
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    Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

    Post by gokaiblue » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:08 pm

    MasenkoHA wrote:
    Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:10 pm
    gokaiblue wrote:
    Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:08 pm
    It might simply be due to them not wanting to pay the licensing fees for Broadcast use to Japan's equivalent of ASCAP or HarryFox, which would explain why they're not in the English dub of Dragon Ball the series but are in Mystical Adventure, as I don't think Mystical Adventure was on TV at any point in the states (I could be wrong).
    Again if they didn’t use any of the insert songs that would make sense. But they did use Mezaze Tenkaichi in episode 86 just not 28. And With a Burning Heart Defeat the Red Ribbon Army was kept as well.

    The “they could ‘t afford/didn’t want to pay to license the songs” doesn’t really hold up under scrutiny.

    Or hell Pioneer had no problem keeping in Gohan’s insert songs for the first two Z movies (and funimation was still the license holder) but Funimation couldn’t when they redubbed it?
    If I recall correctly, the fee has to be paid every time it's shown, not just one time for all. Mezase Tenkaichi was used a lot in the arc, so Funimation (or Cartoon Network, don't know who would have to pay in this case) would have to pay a fee every time the song was used. As for the movies, if Funimation had to foot the bill for music royalties, then it's simple: Pioneer had more money. The Pioneer dubs were broadcast several times though, so I dunno.

    It's more than likely a complicated licensing issue.
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    Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

    Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:25 pm

    gokaiblue wrote:
    Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:08 pm


    If I recall correctly, the fee has to be paid every time it's shown, not just one time for all. Mezase Tenkaichi was used a lot in the arc, so Funimation (or Cartoon Network, don't know who would have to pay in this case) would have to pay a fee every time the song was used.
    And if that were true that would raise the question of why Funimation would pay for it at all. Why would they pay for Mezase Tenkaichi to be used once if they had to pay extra for it? Why pay extra to use Defeat the Red Ribbon Army if you’re just gonna have Brice Armstrong talk non-stop and blare it out? And if it were something Funimation had to pay extra for that would logically extend to their release of the sub as well. Nothing about your explanation makes any sense.


    It's more than likely a complicated licensing issue.
    It sounds more like a Toei gave them shitty masters issue tbh.


    Funimation had to foot the bill for music royalties, then it's simple: Pioneer had more money.
    Yeaaaah Funi had redubbed Dead Zone and World Strongest in 2005 long after DBZ had been a financial hit for them.


    To say nothing of all the actual bands they were licensing for their movies and specials in 2000/2001

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    Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

    Post by gokaiblue » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:35 pm

    The subtitled version is based off of those masters, correct? It would seem to me that they weren't that shitty, as they included the insert songs. However, the BGM in the dub is much more high quality audio wise, so who knows.
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    Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

    Post by Valerius Dover » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:21 pm

    No, the subtitled version is its own completely separate track from the M&SFX tracks given to Funimation. It's likely they didn't even initially have access to the former at the time of dubbing for parts of the series. It seems that many of the same insert songs are missing in other foreign dubs as well, indicating that Toei simply considered the songs part of the vocal track, wiped them, but then left a few in, though whether it was intentional or not is unknown. The montage in Episode 65, for one, would not work without music, but the other ones probably could've still worked, so my money's on it just being a mistake.
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    Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

    Post by Mosaic » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:43 pm

    DB_Fan1991 wrote:
    Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:40 pm
    While this is the case for older Toei show dubs. It isn’t so much now as the Hebrew & Viz English dubs of Sailor Moon have the insert songs. Viz leaves them in Japanese while the Hebrew dub dubbed some and left others instrumental.
    Yeah, they finally got their act together later on. Even the Cloverway dub for Sailor Moon managed to receive the proper masters for insert songs.

    When Italy re-issued the series on DVD in 2011, they weren't able to restore most of the songs. "Anata no Sei Janai" was restored in episode 49, and "Aino Senshi" was partially restored in episode 68. For the latter, they just kept looping the first half of the song over, and over - which included all of the SFX, as well as Kotono Mitsuishi screaming. It was really sloppy.

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    Re: On the subject of missing insert songs in Funimation's dub

    Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:15 pm

    While bad audio/visual masters and a lack of care on the original animation company's part were often reasons for missing insert songs back in "the day," in this day and age, any modern anime made that doesn't have a song in a dub is a licensing issue 99% of the time.

    That's why, for example, "Fly Me To The Moon" is not in the end credits of any of the episodes of the Netflix Neon Genesis Evangelion dub. Another modern example that comes to mind is the FUNimation's dub of Eden of the East. The original opening song in the Japanese version was the Oasis song, "Falling Down," which was waaaaaay more expensive to license than the alternate "international opening" (a Japanese song that I can't remember off the top of my head). FUNimation essentially compromised with fans by licensing the Oasis song for the first episode, and then using the international opening for all episodes thereafter.
    A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
    "To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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