How many series exist for you?

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:18 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:20 am
less fantasy
They still use ki for attacks and flying, so there's still a lot of fantasy elements there. Not to mention the Dragon Balls being important elements in the Namek arc and are still prevalent in the Cell and Buu arcs. Heck the Cell arc took a break to find the next God!
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:20 am
the saga of buu where part of the classic comedy returns to a great extent also here it is more noticeable the connection with super and the expansion of mythology and cosmology
I find it laughable that you think there's a forward connection between Buu and Super as if Toriyama was planning it this whole time.
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:20 am
but in general I can notice and differentiate several aspects between DB OG and DBZ regardless of the effort that has been had to want to keep it the same for the eyes of peolple but it gradually changed and that you can see between king piccolo and the arrival of raditz and this is where DB -DBZ are separate
Such as...? You're completely ignoring the fact that the Dragon Ball manga was written in its entirety in one go under one name. It's understandable that it went through some experimentation early on, but by the Piccolo Daimao arc it solidified what it wanted to be.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 am

eliminating martial arts, adventure with less fantasy
Ki blasts are martial arts and when does DBZ have LESS fantasy?

DBZ amongst many other examples is one of the reasons I think people's belief that continuity being a barrier to getting into comics is misguided. DBZ has proven popular despite a good number of people having not seen the previous series, but that's not evidence that DB is different, irrelevant, unnecessary, or inferior.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:32 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:20 am



I have not said that it is ... but DB OG was much more varied than z that is noted in your comment indeed.
parody, comedy, fights, adventure, villains, tournaments, crossovers, fantasy, martial arts and drama
Every single one of those things was in Z
the fights eliminating martial arts, adventure with less fantasy and comedy but there are more villains with a cast of characters somewhat smaller
The comedy in Z really isn’t any different than what you would find in Dragon Ball by the time Tao Pei Pei appeared.

You gonna tell me the Ginyu Force was oh so serious?

They never stopped using martial arts. Hell it’s a plot point in the Cell Games that Cell is essentially doing a mockery of the Tenkaichi tournaments and then the 25th Tenkaichi lead into Boo.
but it gradually changed and that you can see between king piccolo and the arrival of raditz and this is where DB -DBZ are separate
Correct. It was gradual but the shift was happening long before Z and when it’s all said and done the Saiyajin arc wasn’t any more serious and devoid of comedy than the Piccolo Daimao or 23rd Tenkaichi arc.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by Gligarman » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:18 pm

The only ones that matter to me are the manga which consist of Dragon Ball, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, and Dragon Ball Super.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:37 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:18 am
They still use ki for attacks and flying, so there's still a lot of fantasy elements there. Not to mention the Dragon Balls being important elements in the Namek arc and are still prevalent in the Cell and Buu arcs. Heck the Cell arc took a break to find the next God!
dbz is more sci-fi is actually different things like magic weapons, demons(not aliens) and Asian legends was also reduced it was very obvious that DB would keep Dragon balls is what gives name to the series but again their participation was quite minor
KBABZ wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:18 am
I find it laughable that you think there's a forward connection between Buu and Super as if Toriyama was planning it this whole time.
is an example of how I can separate the fact that the gods start have important battles every time more directly outside being only an instructor or healer
KBABZ wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:18 am
Such as...? You're completely ignoring the fact that the Dragon Ball manga was written in its entirety in one go under one name. It's understandable that it went through some experimentation early on, but by the Piccolo Daimao arc it solidified what it wanted to be.
yes, king piccolo arc imposed a "base" however it was not the only thing that had DB OG whose content already mentioned.
not only the style of drawing was changing thing that the same author has said, also the stories, the battles and also in a certain way the types of characters like vegeta, there were the "rivals" of goku but never one like him, that to the point that the majority believed that DB was only z without remembering what it was like at the beginning.
I am not saying that the difference is huge .. but it is not so difficult to separate it.
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 am
eliminating martial arts, adventure with less fantasy
Ki blasts are martial arts
no, they are not ...
at least in DB OG there is kung fu and other styles of hand-to-hand fighting
the energy attacks of energy aren't much and the strategy was more important
I can not take the explosions as a martial art
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 am
and when does DBZ have LESS fantasy?
It is not the same game of thrones and star wars
Last edited by Tai Lung on Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:51 pm

Why do we keep having to have this conversation every so often? Why is it so important to think of DB and DBZ as different or separate series instead of one long story that changes over time?

All the scifi elements you bring up are merely trappings.
no, they are not ...
at least in DB OG there is kung fu and other styles of hand-to-hand fighting
the energy attacks of energy aren't much and the strategy was more important
I can not take the explosions as a martial art
You are flat out wrong on that issue. It's fantasy martial arts, but martial arts all the same. If not martial arts, what are they?
It is not the same game of thrones and star wars
Huh? I'm not writing this to be rude, but your writing is often difficult to decipher.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:50 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:51 pm
Why do we keep having to have this conversation every so often? Why is it so important to think of DB and DBZ as different or separate series instead of one long story that changes over time?
it is interesting
I did not say the opposite, only that you can see the difference between both
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:51 pm
]You are flat out wrong on that issue. It's fantasy martial arts, but martial arts all the same. If not martial arts, what are they?
because energy attacks are used in different fictions but they are a means of spectacularity in battles and were generally used in mecha anime they serve to complement a battle but at least I could not define them as that ...
Image
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:51 pm
Huh?
It was an example of 2 different fictions
sci-fi =/= fantasy
right?

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:55 pm

Bad example because in this specific case, these are Ki attacks. What's the difference between someone using one's ki to shoot a concussive blast and a fist to hit someone? Why is the former not martial arts, but the latter is?
It was an example of 2 different fictions
sci-fi =/= fantasy
right?
I still don't understand you're point. Plenty of stories blend genres. Star Wars blends science fiction and fantasy. It's why it's better classified as a space opera. Dragon Ball is a fantasy, but it blends other genres.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:18 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:51 pm
Why is it so important to think of DB and DBZ as different or separate series instead of one long story that changes over time ?
Some people just can't change the mindset they grew up on. In this case, DB and DBZ being 2 different stories instead of one. Had these people seen them the way they were meant to be seen or had Toei not separated them, we would never have this conversation.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:23 pm

sintzu wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:18 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:51 pm
Why is it so important to think of DB and DBZ as different or separate series instead of one long story that changes over time ?
Some people just can't change the mindset they grew up on. In this case, DB and DBZ being 2 different stories instead of one. Had these people seen them the way they were meant to be seen or had Toei not separated them, we would never have this conversation.
I hear you, but I don't understand it. I like many people here saw DBZ first during it's syndication and first Toonami run. I only saw DB after DBZ had ended its run. Yet I knew it was all DB in the manga.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:35 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:37 pm


dbz is more sci-fi
The Saiyajin arc brought in more sci fi elements than what had been seen previously, for sure. However, the series never stopped primarily being a fantasy. Where these martial artist use chi based power to fight.
is actually different things like magic weapons, demons(not aliens) and Asian legends
The first “ Z” arc had Goku going to the Buddhist version of the afterlife where he met Enma.

Demons and aliens are not mutually exclusive. Garlic Jr is both. So is Boo.
was also reduced it was very obvious that DB would keep Dragon balls is what gives name to the series but again their participation was quite minor
The Dragon Balls prominence would vary from arc to arc even before Z. I don’t think they were mentioned ONCE in the very second arc of Dragon Ball. They also didn’t really factor in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and their only real part in the 23rd is the creator of the Dragon Balls participating to stop his evil side.

In the Z portion the main reason the Saiyajin are coming to earth is to wish for eternal life. In the following arc the heroes and villains are after the Namekian Dragon Balls.

Even in the Artificial Human/Cell arc the fact that Piccolo takes desperate measures to fight the Artificial Humans by merging with God and thus the Dragon Balls cease to exist, and subsequently recruiting Dende to make new ones is a key plot point.

And of course the Boo arc has Goku use them to wish for Boo to be reincarnated leading to the end of the original story.




no, they are not ...
Qi/Chi/Ki is rooted in Chinese martial arts philosophy.
at least in DB OG there is kung fu and other styles of hand-to-hand fighting
Hand to hand fighting is in Z

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by Kakacarrottop » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:40 pm

Danfun64 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:59 pm
I can understand Faulconer (although since Funi broke up with Faulconer I'm not sure what the money situation is there) and especially Johnson and Menza... but Wasserman was Saban's thing. Are you sure Funi was making money off the Wasserman score instead of Saban?
Wasserman actually did DBZ as a freelance thing. By 1996-97 when the DBZ dub was being produced, he had already left Saban, since there was a falling out around the time of the first Power Rangers movie in 1995. Wasserman said in an interview though that Saban were the ones he sent the music to, not FUNimation. I don't think he even knew about FUNimation's existance, and just assumed Saban were the ones doing the dub. FUNimation probably just let Saban do the music, and they in turn gave it to Wasserman, even though he didn't work for the company anymore.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:46 pm

I can’t find it but there was an interview somewhere where Fukunaga said they replaced the music for royalty reasons. “we can make money with our music”

Saban was the one that contacted Wasserman to do the score but it was Funi who made the call to do so. Funimation owned the rights to the score, which is why they were able to release the Rock the Dragon set without a problem.

I think people tend to act like Funimation had way less say in the pre-in house dub than they actually did.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:11 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:35 pm
Demons and aliens are not mutually exclusive. Garlic Jr is both. So is Boo.
You mentioned this before about Boo but is this something from the new revival material, or are you just saying that because Bibbidi and Boo come from outer space he's an alien?

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:12 pm

Not from earth ergo an alien.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by GTx10 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:39 pm

For me in terms of the Anime there is;

1. Dragon Ball (and it's movies)

2. Dragon Ball Z (And it's Movies & Specials)

3. Dragon Ball GT (It's special and TPTP movie)

4. Dragon Ball Z Kai/The Final Chapters

5. Dragon Ball Super (including Broly)

6. Super Dragon Ball Heroes (promo anime)

That is six tv shows and one Hollywood movie because why not?

My criteria is based on it being an actual TV show that also contains official subtitles.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:16 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:35 pm
The Saiyajin arc brought in more sci fi elements than what had been seen previously, for sure. However, the series never stopped primarily being a fantasy. Where these martial artist use chi based power to fight.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:32 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:20 am
I have not said that it is ... but DB OG was much more varied than z that is noted in your comment indeed.
parody, comedy, fights, adventure, villains, tournaments, crossovers, fantasy, martial arts and drama
Every single one of those things was in Z
I don't remember any crossover or parody maybe enma but little
really does not generate any challenge to gather the dragon balls so the adventure was eliminated, in namek basically are vegeta and frieza those gathered all dragon balls with one o two exception.
the tournaments were very secondary
in buu arc it did not matter to win
in cell games arc, I do not think you can call it a tournament when only goku and gohan participated
with fantasy I did not say that there is not exist just this was reduced in comparison
with master karin, mr popo, roshi and tienshin han these examples were seen as the handling of chi / ki and how it works for all kinds of techniques and abilities but they were used precisely in DB OG.
in dbz almost everyone knows how to use it and outside the training with kaiosama with spirit bomb and kaio-ken the energy attacks remain as a spectacular element of the battle that little by little until the names would lose, again the "energy explosions " they were in several fictions which may have different origin and would not take it as a martial art.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:32 am
The comedy in Z really isn’t any different than what you would find in Dragon Ball by the time Tao Pei Pei appeared.

You gonna tell me the Ginyu Force was oh so serious?
I did not say that there was no comedy ... I said it was reduced more especially the absurd comedy
Image
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:32 am
The first “ Z” arc had Goku going to the Buddhist version of the afterlife where he met Enma.
yes and it ends with that
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:35 pm
The Dragon Balls prominence would vary from arc to arc even before Z. I don’t think they were mentioned ONCE in the very second arc of Dragon Ball. They also didn’t really factor in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and their only real part in the 23rd is the creator of the Dragon Balls participating to stop his evil side.

In the Z portion the main reason the Saiyajin are coming to earth is to wish for eternal life. In the following arc the heroes and villains are after the Namekian Dragon Balls.

Even in the Artificial Human/Cell arc the fact that Piccolo takes desperate measures to fight the Artificial Humans by merging with God and thus the Dragon Balls cease to exist, and subsequently recruiting Dende to make new ones is a key plot point.

And of course the Boo arc has Goku use them to wish for Boo to be reincarnated leading to the end of the original story.
pilaf, bulma and yamcha wanted the dragon balls
Red commander and RR wanted the dragon balls
Fortuneteller Baba, they needed the help of baba to look for the dragon ball to resurrect bora
king piccolo wanted the dragon balls to regain his youth
it was only in the 21-22 tournaments where it did not have it but they were simpler sagas
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:55 pm
Bad example because in this specific case, these are Ki attacks. What's the difference between someone using one's ki to shoot a concussive blast and a fist to hit someone? Why is the former not martial arts, but the latter is?
Image
Image
if it is obvious that it is "fiction" but at least there were elements inspired by real martial arts
the concept of ki / energy in DB OG was worked but that little by little it was losing .. almost everyone knew how to use it and the techniques in general were blast of energy without a name that was again a means of spectacularity as it exists in other fictions
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:55 pm
still don't understand you're point. Plenty of stories blend genres. Star Wars blends science fiction and fantasy. It's why it's better classified as a space opera. Dragon Ball is a fantasy, but it blends other genres.
indeed my point was this was reduced
Last edited by Tai Lung on Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:38 pm

The changes you are talking about are natural over the course of a long running serialized story. Given the number of dragon ball hunts and tournaments there had been, it's no wonder why those were de-emphasized over time. Goku achieved his goal of winning the Tenkaichi Budokai, so of course they wouldn't have as many tournaments in the future.
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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:42 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:37 pm
dbz is more sci-fi is actually different things like magic weapons, demons(not aliens) and Asian legends was also reduced it was very obvious that DB would keep Dragon balls is what gives name to the series but again their participation was quite minor
And the original Dragon Ball WASN'T sci-fi? Sure going to space was a big deal, but remember that Dragon Ball is where Capsules, Battle Jackets, robots and flying cars come from, to say nothing of Bulma's inventions like the shrinking watch, the Dragon Radar, building a flying drone out of household parts, and the general Jetsons-like aesthetic of the architecture of places like West City and it's building-sized TVs (which originated in DB, not Z). And let's not forget Penguin Village, which in many ways can TOTALLY fit in the Dragon Ball world, and it stars a human-like robot as its protagonist.
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:37 pm
is an example of how I can separate the fact that the gods start have important battles every time more directly outside being only an instructor or healer
So you're saying that because the Buu saga has the involvement of the Kais (which, by the way, is a MYSTICAL element if ever there was one) it's connected to an anime that was written 15 years afterwards??? They're NOT connected in that way, Super is using elements iconic to the final arc of Dragon Ball to help it feel a part of the old content, which makes sense given the time period it's set in. Toriyama DID NOT write the Buu arc knowing he'd help take over Battle of Gods over a decade later to introduce Beerus and co.
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:37 pm
I am not saying that the difference is huge .. but it is not so difficult to separate it.
I could see an argument for a split between the Kid Goku stuff and Adult Goku stuff purely due to the age of many of the characters shifting... but the split between DB and Z is an arbitrary one made purely for marketing reasons so that Toei could sell the same product again under a different name and brand it as new (and as we know, it worked really well). The manga itself is proof that in reality there really is no seam there.
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:37 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 am
Ki blasts are martial arts
no, they are not ...
at least in DB OG there is kung fu and other styles of hand-to-hand fighting
the energy attacks of energy aren't much and the strategy was more important
I can not take the explosions as a martial art
Then you don't know wuxia. Your comparison to Gundam is a terrible one because in that they are using electrical and plasma energy for those blasts. You're focusing WAY too much on the dub's use of the word "energy" as a Woolseyism of "ki" or "chi" energy. In the original translation, it's all ki, which is energy from the body.

And, since Kunzait's nowhere to be found, it has to be pointed out that the control of your body's chi is VERY MUCH a part of real-life martial arts and being good at them. The use of it to fire beams of light is very much fantasy, but ki itself is intrinsically tied to martial arts because that's where it comes from. You cannot use ki without also being a good martial artist. It's the reason why the "ordinary folk" of the Tournaments like Mr. Satan, Giran, and the wrestlers and such can't do it, but really good fighters like Krillin, Yamcha and Videl get the hang of it.
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:37 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:26 am
and when does DBZ have LESS fantasy?
It is not the same game of thrones and star wars
Just to point it out, DBZ is where Goku visited the afterlife, met King Yenma (an actual figure in Japanese folklore), visited Princess Snake, fell into Hell and met the locals, was trained by King Kai and more. This not even mentioning Piccolo and Kami merging back together in the Cell arc or Goku assigning Dende the role of God and him resurrecting the Dragon Balls. And of course, there's the HUGE expansion of the afterlife in the Buu arc, where we delved into the Kai hierarchy and met Buu, who shares a great many traits with genies (appears as smoke from a chamber, for example). And do I even need to bring up Super?

And as for COMEDY, have you SEEN Mr. Satan?
Last edited by KBABZ on Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How many series exist for you?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:45 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:16 pm
I don't remember any crossover or parody maybe enma but little
The Ginyu Force was a parody of Super Sentai they’re even named TokuSentai Ginyu Force. Saiyaman is a parody of Superman (nerd is secretly a super hero) and Kamen Rider (posing)

Dragon Ball pre-Z only had one crossover with Dr.Slump it’s not like they did crossovers all the time. But at any rate Jaco from Toriyama’s Jaco the Galactic Patrolman appeared in Z movie 15 so there you go.
, in namek basically are vegeta and frieza those gathered all dragon balls with one o two exception.
the tournaments were very secondary
It was still the narrative thrust of the arc. Acting like the Dragon Balls were no longer important is incorrect.
in buu arc it did not matter to win
It still happened. Goku had already won a tournament so there was no investment to see him win again. We don’t need that Yugioh shit. The first time Goku only barely lost. The second time he lost on a technicality and it was basically a draw. The third time he won. It would have been impossible to keep that fresh, no wonder Toriyama had it interrupted partway through and threw a curve by having 18 throw the match for double the prize money.
in cell games arc, I do not think you can call it a tournament when only goku and gohan participated
It was called a tournament. It was deliberately, in the context of the story, treating as Cell making a mockery of the Tenkaichi tournaments

with master karin, mr popo, roshi and tienshin han these examples were seen as the handling of chi / ki and how it works for all kinds of techniques and abilities but they were used precisely in DB OG.
in dbz almost everyone knows how to use it and outside the training with kaiosama with spirit bomb and kaio-ken the energy attacks remain as a spectacular element of the battle that little by little until the names would lose, again the "energy explosions " they were in several fictions which may have different origin and would not take it as a martial art.
Not a single word you said made sense.

I did not say that there was no comedy ... I said it was reduced more especially the absurd comedy
And as we said the comedy was reduced well before Z was added to the anime title. The Red Ribbon saga marked a more straightforward approach to the storytelling compared to the first two arcs while still keeping a lot of the comedy. The Tenshinhan arc really isn’t any different than what you would find in pre-Boo Z tone wise



it was only in the 21-22 tournaments where it did not have it but they were simpler sagas
None of the 3 tournament arcs had them. All of the major arcs in the Z portion featured them just not to the degree of the first arc or Red Ribbon/Baba saga

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