How many series exist for you?

[Tai Lung]

And the original Dragon Ball WASN'T sci-fi? Sure going to space was a big deal, but remember that Dragon Ball is where Capsules, Battle Jackets, robots and flying cars come from, to say nothing of Bulma's inventions like the shrinking watch, the Dragon Radar, building a flying drone out of household parts, and the general Jetsons-like aesthetic of the architecture of places like West City and it's building-sized TVs (which originated in DB, not Z). And let's not forget Penguin Village, which in many ways can TOTALLY fit in the Dragon Ball world, and it stars a human-like robot as its protagonist.

There were also dinosaurs and anthropo-morphic animals?
it was to show the fantastic world that they explored
I was never say that it did not exist but the key word here is "more"

there were no invading aliens, spaceships, there were no travels in time or other planets there were no cyborgs (which were an important part of the story) experiments with cells etc etc

dr slump is a crossover ....part of the absurd humor

So you're saying that because the Buu saga has the involvement of the Kais (which, by the way, is a MYSTICAL element if ever there was one) it's connected to an anime that was written 15 years afterwards??? They're NOT connected in that way, Super is using elements iconic to the final arc of Dragon Ball to help it feel a part of the old content, which makes sense given the time period it's set in. Toriyama DID NOT write the Buu arc knowing he'd help take over Battle of Gods over a decade later to introduce Beerus and co.

I did not say that he had the intention but finishing with an open end is probably he know that the franchise would continue even if he did not work on it

I could see an argument for a split between the Kid Goku stuff and Adult Goku stuff purely due to the age of many of the characters shifting... but the split between DB and Z is an arbitrary one made purely for marketing reasons so that Toei could sell the same product again under a different name and brand it as new (and as we know, it worked really well). The manga itself is proof that in reality there really is no seam there..

I could talk about the content of the manga and how the art style along with other elements change although the author says that this is intentional, I mention before it in another post

Then you don't know wuxia. Your comparison to Gundam is a terrible one because in that they are using electrical and plasma energy for those blasts. You're focusing WAY too much on the dub's use of the word "energy" as a Woolseyism of "ki" or "chi" energy. In the original translation, it's all ki, which is energy from the body.

And, since Kunzait's nowhere to be found, it has to be pointed out that the control of your body's chi is VERY MUCH a part of real-life martial arts and being good at them. The use of it to fire beams of light is very much fantasy, but ki itself is intrinsically tied to martial arts because that's where it comes from. You cannot use ki without also being a good martial artist. It's the reason why the "ordinary folk" of the Tournaments like Mr. Satan, Giran, and the wrestlers and such can't do it, but really good fighters like Krillin, Yamcha and Videl get the hang of it..

I do not say that the origin is the same but it fulfills the same function
if, in DB OG, the concept of ki / chi is used, which is linked to martial arts, something that is also used in other series


but in DBZ, then it became a lot of attacks of energy without name, losing the grace of the martial arts in it became only a spectacular means all already know how to do it and it only matters who has the attack of light is stronger. with kaiosama a little of that it came back, but in general it was no longer constant

Just to point it out, DBZ is where Goku visited the afterlife, met King Yenma (an actual figure in Japanese folklore), visited Princess Snake, fell into Hell and met the locals, was trained by King Kai and more. This not even mentioning Piccolo and Kami merging back together in the Cell arc or Goku assigning Dende the role of God and him resurrecting the Dragon Balls. And of course, there's the HUGE expansion of the afterlife in the Buu arc, where we delved into the Kai hierarchy and met Buu, who shares a great many traits with genies (appears as smoke from a chamber, for example). And do I even need to bring up Super?

And as for COMEDY, have you SEEN Mr. Satan?

it depends if we talk about anime and manga
life after death had already been mentioned in DB OG with grandpa gohan
except for enma a lot of that in the manga remained a mystery, in the anime this expanded a little bit more, however, as something really don't stable because it is much minor in previous sagas
kais race are aliens
I also said that part of the comedy come back in buu arc

[KBABZ]

kais race are aliens

UHH, SOURCE???

[Tai Lung]

kais race are aliens

UHH, SOURCE???

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Core_Person

The Ginyu Force was a parody of Super Sentai they’re even named TokuSentai Ginyu Force. Saiyaman is a parody of Superman (nerd is secretly a super hero) and Kamen Rider (posing)

Dragon Ball pre-Z only had one crossover with Dr.Slump it’s not like they did crossovers all the time. But at any rate Jaco from Toriyama’s Jaco the Galactic Patrolman appeared in Z movie 15 so there you go.

here I give you the reason given that it became so common that sometimes I forget
But why should I tell you about Arale? it only happened in DB OG and not in z and jako was several years later

It was still the narrative thrust of the arc. Acting like the Dragon Balls were no longer important is incorrect.

ok but here my point was that the adventure was eliminated

[KBABZ]

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Core_Person

Sorry, but not only is the the Dragon Ball Wiki an utterly TERRIBLE source of information, the word alien isn't even on that page.

ok but here my point was that the adventure was eliminated

Not sure if you noticed but the Namek arc was very adventure-driven despite all of the fighting that occurred around it.

[MasenkoHA]

And the original Dragon Ball WASN'T sci-fi?

Perhaps I’m being pedantic, but no , Dragon Ball was not sci fi. Neither is Z. They’re all rooted in fantasy with some sci fi elements. The Saiyajin-Artifical Human/Cell saga just feature a lot more of it.

There’s “horror” elements in Dragon Ball and Z too but nobody in their right mind would classify the series as a horror just because Hatchan is a parody of Boris Karloffs Frankenstein or Baba has Goku and company fight B-movie horror monsters or Imperfect Cell’s introduction and the atmosphere feels right out of a monster horror flick like The Thing or Cloverfield.

And let's not forget Penguin Village, which in many ways can TOTALLY fit in the Dragon Ball world, and it stars a human-like robot as its protagonist.

It can fit in the Dragon Ball world because it does Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, Dragon Ball, and Dr.Slump all exist in the same universe.

You’re focusing WAY too much on the dub's use of the word "energy" as a Woolseyism of "ki" or "chi" energy. In the original translation, it's all ki, which is energy from the body.

Eh, more like whitewashing.

Even in the context of the dub whitewashing ki as “energy” it’s still pretty obvious not a sci fi thing.

Unlike Superman whose abilities are a direct result of his alien physiology reacting to the earth’s sun Goku’s alien genetics almost feel incidental. He’s strong because he was trained by a world famous martial artist. He then continued to be train by many masters. He’s not super powered due to being an alien he’s super powered because he’s a martial artist who lives in a fantasy world where martial artist can harness their chi to increase their strength, fly, be nigh invulnerable, and fire energy blast.

[ZeroNeonix]

We can because that is objectively the correct answer. The manga is all just Dragon Ball.

It takes some hubris to claim one's opinion as being "objective," but I'll just agree to disagree on this one. To me, the division between Dragon Ball and Z is like adding blue dye to a bucket of red water, one drop at a time. After which drop of blue dye does the red water become purple? The difference between the starting and finished product are clear, but selecting a point in the middle is up to interpretation. Perhaps TOEI thought Goku having a kid was the best time to give the series a new name. I personally think the Piccolo arc of DB was basically Z, but others think the Red Ribbon arc is when the Z style was solidified. My point is, by the time Z got its name, the show was fundamentally different enough to justify a new name.

Edit: I also find it funny how everyone is like, "You're not supposed to watch Z first!" And then ignore the example I gave of someone starting with DB and getting to the part with aliens, but whatever.

[ABED]

We can because that is objectively the correct answer. The manga is all just Dragon Ball.

It takes some hubris to claim one's opinion as being "objective," but I'll just agree to disagree on this one. To me, the division between Dragon Ball and Z is like adding blue dye to a bucket of red water, one drop at a time. After which drop of blue dye does the red water become purple? The difference between the starting and finished product are clear, but selecting a point in the middle is up to interpretation. Perhaps TOEI thought Goku having a kid was the best time to give the series a new name. I personally think the Piccolo arc of DB was basically Z, but others think the Red Ribbon arc is when the Z style was solidified. My point is, by the time Z got its name, the show was fundamentally different enough to justify a new name.

Edit: I also find it funny how everyone is like, "You're not supposed to watch Z first!" And then ignore the example I gave of someone starting with DB and getting to the part with aliens, but whatever.

This isn't a matter of opinion. It is literally all just DB. How do we know? Because that was the story of the manga. The name change was pure marketing. That's fine. Toei had a financial stake in increasing viewership and if you can accomplish that with a name change, why not? The issue is when people take it to mean anything more than that. They aren't two different stories.

[MasenkoHA]

We can because that is objectively the correct answer. The manga is all just Dragon Ball.

It takes some hubris to claim one's opinion as being "objective,"

It’s not an opinion. It’s factually true that everything from the beginning where Bulma to met Goku to Goku leaving with Oob is all Dragon Ball. There is no manga called Dragon Ball Z.


Warner Bros splitting the 7th Harry Potter book into two films doesn’t make it two separate things.

[MyVisionity]

The issue is when people take it to mean anything more than that. They aren't two different stories.

I see it more as a divided story. I don't think the Saiyajin arc was "just another story arc", but instead a new beginning for DB. Goku was an adult with a wife and kid, a kid who began to take center stage. The tournaments were done with. Lunch was written out. Goku had saved the entire world. The old era of Dragon Ball had concluded.

I guess you could say TOEI took advantage of these shifts in order to re-brand the series. However, the story itself was no longer what it once was.

[MasenkoHA]

The issue is when people take it to mean anything more than that. They aren't two different stories.

I see it more as a divided story. I don't think the Saiyajin arc was "just another story arc", but instead a new beginning for DB. Goku was an adult with a wife and kid, a kid who began to take center stage. The tournaments were done with. Lunch was written out. Goku had saved the entire world. The old era of Dragon Ball had concluded.

I guess you could say TOEI took advantage of these shifts in order to re-brand the series. However, the story itself was no longer what it once was.

Again, mine, and I think ABED’s (but I don’t speak for him) issue with that line of thinking is a lot of long running series go through changes that can often alter the tone from where it started.

Buffy season 4 and onward didn’t need to be treated as a new series just because it moves the main characters out of high school, evolving from it’s original premise that “high school is hell”

Or to use a kid’s anime example Sailor Moon adding random letters every year (which I have a feeling was done because of Dragon Ball Z) didn’t mean it was a brand new series. The Saiyajin arc was the next step in the Dragon Ball story but it wasn’t a new story.


The difference between say the very first arc of Dragon Ball and the Piccolo Daimao arc is vastly more different than the difference between the 23rd Budokai and the Saiyajin arc.

[ABED]

The issue is when people take it to mean anything more than that. They aren't two different stories.

I see it more as a divided story. I don't think the Saiyajin arc was "just another story arc", but instead a new beginning for DB. Goku was an adult with a wife and kid, a kid who began to take center stage. The tournaments were done with. Lunch was written out. Goku had saved the entire world. The old era of Dragon Ball had concluded.

I guess you could say TOEI took advantage of these shifts in order to re-brand the series. However, the story itself was no longer what it once was.

But in the context of a story that had the characters constantly learning and growing, this was yet another big shift in a story that had a lot of them. Yes, the Saiyan arc was another story arc. It wasn't the beginning. I agree that one big chapter in Goku's life had ended. He achieved a goal he had since nearly the beginning, but Z's first episode might as well be 154 of DB. The Buu arc could've been its own series given how it was also a story arc that took place after all the previous threads are arguably tied up. Hell, it came with new music.

MasenkoHA articulated the point well.

If you look at a picture of an adult and the look back at their baby picture, of course they look different.

[MasenkoHA]

there were no invading aliens

Only one of Dragon Ball Z’s major arcs had invading aliens.

there were no cyborgs

Hatchan says hello.

Also Cyborg Tao from the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament

(which were an important part of the story)

They were important for approximately one story arc.?The Red Ribbon arc had Hatchan and Metallitron, and Assistant Black’s battle mecha.

experiments with cells etc etc

Experiments with Cyborg #8

dr slump is a crossover ....part of the absurd humor

Well shit DBZ never had absurd humor
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WxYPL7RSxKw

EVER:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQpbgLnz0jM

[ABED]

And why do people who downplay DBZ's humor keep forgetting Kaio? He's a recurring character whose constantly making jokes and thinks puns are the heighth of comedy.

[MasenkoHA]

And why do people who downplay DBZ's humor keep forgetting Kaio? He's a recurring character whose constantly making jokes and thinks puns are the heighth of comedy.

Same reason people ignore Bora getting murdered by Tao Pei Pei, the Red Ribbon’s take over of Jingle Village and General White’s plan to execute the villagers after getting the dragon ball, Piccolo Daimao and his clan killing martial artist and main characters dying left and right and things getting their darkest, and the brutality of Goku vs Piccolo jr.


Easier to be selective so one can be Dragon Ball=light and goofy and silly at all times DBZ=super serious and dark

[MyVisionity]

The Saiyajin arc was the next step in the Dragon Ball story but it wasn’t a new story.

Not a brand new story, no, but not simply "the next step" in Dragon Ball. I see the Saiyajin arc as the beginning of a new story within a larger single story.

The difference between say the very first arc of Dragon Ball and the Piccolo Daimao arc is vastly more different than the difference between the 23rd Budokai and the Saiyajin arc.

It's not just about the single 23rd Budoukai arc, but the entire story up until that arc compared to the Saiyajin arc. The difference is with everything that came prior.

But in the context of a story that had the characters constantly learning and growing, this was yet another big shift in a story that had a lot of them. Yes, the Saiyan arc was another story arc. It wasn't the beginning. I agree that one big chapter in Goku's life had ended. He achieved a goal he had since nearly the beginning, but Z's first episode might as well be 154 of DB.

You're right that Z's first episode could have been 154 of DB. But making it into a new series makes sense as well. There were no shifts in the story previously that compare to the one that took place in the Saiyajin arc.

The Buu arc could've been its own series given how it was also a story arc that took place after all the previous threads are arguably tied up. Hell, it came with new music.

And if the Boo arc had been re-branded the way the Saiyajin arc was, that too would have made sense given the shift.

Easier to be selective so one can be Dragon Ball=light and goofy and silly at all times DBZ=super serious and dark

I don't think anyone thinks the differences are that extreme. However I do think that overall DB is sillier and lighter when compared to DBZ, which is comparatively darker and more serious. I think it's more selective to pick out things like Daimao, Ginyu Tokusentai, Kaio. This also goes for the genre differences as well. Of course you can pick out bits and pieces of sci-fi from DB, but none of that will compare to the emphasis given to sci-fi in DBZ.

[MasenkoHA]

The difference is with everything that came prior.

Again, this implied the shift in tone didn’t happen well before Raditz arrived.

I don't think anyone thinks the differences are that extreme. However I do think that overall DB is sillier and lighter when compared to DBZ, which is comparatively darker and more serious

Yes, and that’s because the shift in tone happened well before Z. Toriyama didn’t suddenly make the series darker and more serious it was a gradual shift. There’s nothing about the Daimao arc that’s less dark than the Saiyajin, Namek, Jinzoningen, and Boo arcs. (Actually way darker than the last one)

.

I think it's more selective to pick out things like Daimao, Ginyu Tokusentai, Kaio.

Kaio is an incredibly prominent character from the Saiyajin-Cell arcs.

Daimao is turning point for the series. Up to this point the bad guys had mostly been comedic. Or in Tenshinhan’s case more of an asshole than anything.
Mentioning him isn’t being selective it’s pointing out the series got darker (while never losing it’s comedic tone) before Z got added to the anime adaptation’s title.

Toriyama didn’t change the title.

This also goes for the genre differences as well. Of course you can pick out bits and pieces of sci-fi from DB, but none of that will compare to the emphasis given to sci-fi in DBZ.

There was more emphasis on sci fi elements in the Saiyajin-Cell arc but the series was still fantasy first.

DBZ did not shift genres. Again even with Saiyajin arc being about an alien invasion the character’s are still chi using martial artist (who go train with God no less) the main character still goes to the other world to train with the Lord of the nothern worlds. The alien invaders are after mystical orbs.

[Vijay]

For me, DragonBall series encapsulates original DragonBall, DragonBall Z . As simple as that

GT, Kai, 2.0, 2.0 upgraded version, Supa, Hiroo....all these are alternate universe for me. Fun side-stories to be watched...but dont u dare intrude my dream world Doragon Wordo dat Akira Toriyama has created

[Tai Lung]

Only one of Dragon Ball Z’s major arcs had invading aliens.

saiyans, king cold and babidi etc

Hatchan says hello.

Hatchan is a parody of Frankenstein ...

Experiments with Cyborg #8

with that I mean something like perfect cell a creation with other people's cells

with cyborg tao is a good point although it would define more a "prothesis" and not as advanced as in the android saga

Well shit DBZ never had absurd humor
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WxYPL7RSxKw

EVER:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQpbgLnz0jM

Ginyu force is moderate
I said that part of that humor came back in buu arc

[MasenkoHA]

saiyans, king cold and babidi etc

King Cold was barely a footnote.

Babidi is an alien but wasn’t treated as an alien invading earth like the Saiyajin were

Hatchan is a parody of Frankenstein ...

A parody of Frankenstein and a cyborg those are not mutually exclusive.

Ginyu force is moderate

Right.

[KBABZ]

Ginyu force is moderate

moderate