Another Misconception Regarding Piccolo

[Grimlock]

Besides this thread, there seems to be yet another issue that can (?) be interpreted differently. So let us also discuss it.

People think that Piccolo forfeited his fight against Kaioshin of East out of sheer difference in power. Is that really right, though? How can Piccolo possibly know that he is weaker than Kaioshin of East if they did not even start to raise their Ki? They were just standing there. Then, as soon as they stare at each other, Piccolo notices something... and wonders who that might be. Once Kaioshin of East answers his question, he also realizes something. This is confirmed by Kaioshin of East himself:



I really don't know how this situation can be remotely related to power level. Clearly when they stared at each other, what "triggers" Piccolo isn't power level, but something else that he felt in that moment. The answer to what Piccolo felt in that moment can be found in the next chapter. Something was disturbing Piccolo and so he went to ask Kaioshin of East who he was. But not with "empty hands", he went already assuming he could be a god. Heck, he dared to ask if Kaioshin of East was Dai Kaio, only to find out that it was actually a Kaioshin.



Finally, with all that said, I've always interpreted Piccolo's forfeit as something due to the fact that he merged with Kami. It is the fact that Piccolo has Kami inside his body what prevented him from fighting a god. And Kami wouldn't fight against another god, let alone one that stands way above him in the hierarchy.


Because I'm sure that Piccolo didn't fight against Kaioshin of East is due to the presence of Kami, from my perspective it has always been a contradiction Piccolo rushing towards Beerus in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods. If he could sense that guy standing before him was a god, Piccolo should have sensed that Beerus is a god too (hell, Toei even made Dende to realize that in its continuity).


Anyway, what do you think about it?

[Polyphase Avatron]

I agree that he didn't fight him out of respect.

Beerus, though, was a clear and immediate threat. If Shin had started attacking his friends, I don't doubt that Piccolo would fight him.

[Kaboom]

How Piccolo realized he was weaker isn't really important. It could be inherited knowledge from Kami about how strong the Grand Kaio is supposed to be, it could retroactively be the intimidating "pressure" of a godly ki user, or any number of other things. But one way or another, we know for a fact that Shin really was stronger. Not only does the wording of Piccolo's statement denote a big strength difference (and other characters' lines surrounding it don't make sense unless it does), but guidebooks also outright confirm to us, "yes, Kaioshin is much stronger than Piccolo," plain and simply with no roundabout phrasing or ambiguity.

But that said, "Piccolo chose not to fight because he was outmatched" and "Piccolo chose not to fight out of respect" are not mutually exclusive. While an outclassed Piccolo may still give it his best shot anyway in most circumstances, especially that of a friendly tournament match, it's a different case when intuition tells him he's staring down a top-ranking god (whichever one he thought it was at the time). His mindset would naturally go from, "stronger or not I'm going to test my limits and see what I can do," understandably to "this is serious business, I'd better not push my luck." Furthermore, unlike during the snafu with Beerus, there was no immediate crisis or danger from this top god's presence, just a lot of mystery. So here Piccolo had the luxury of being able to forfeit instead of being forced to charge in and fight anyway.

There's not really any contradiction in any of this. Frankly, the far-and-away most common reason I see people bring up this "was Kaioshin REALLY stronger though" sentiment is out of some hangup or another regarding Kaioshin's apparent cowardice during the sequence in Bobbidi's ship, and what they feel that implies about his strength compared to the base Saiyans and thus in turn compared to Piccolo. But in such cases, even that tends to stem from an inability or unwillingness to focus on anything but power levels.

[Alruneia]

I personally never took it as a matter of power difference, though it could have been a factor. If power was all there was to it, there wouldn't have been such an emphasis on Piccolo getting this idea of who Shin could be before forfeiting, so Shin's identity is just as important as his power, if not more so.

Headcanon incoming:

Spoiler:

With the introduction of Beerus I've had a headcanon that basically says that due to having fused with Kami, Piccolo has, or has had, a weak ability to detect god ki. So when he meets Shin, he can sense his actual power, or maybe more appropriately the actual "nature" of his power, while the others can't. Piccolo isn't able to really interpret what he's sensing, but he can tell that something's going on. To put it this way, he's legally blind in a room filled with fully blind people. That's why Piccolo, and only Piccolo, is able to figure out Shin's identity as a god (well, he has a near miss since he guesses the Grand Kai instead of a Supreme Kai).
(Dende can figure out that Beerus is a god in Battle of Gods while Piccolo doesn't seem to be able to. This doesn't really fit with my theory unless Piccolo gradually lost the ability to sense god ki over time. If that was the case, had Shin appeared sooner, say 7 months instead of 7 years after Cell, Piccolo would have found him out right away. But this is getting hypothetical, and it's just headcanon anyway.)

[KBABZ]

Frankly, the far-and-away most common reason I see people bring up this "was Kaioshin REALLY stronger though" sentiment is out of some hangup or another regarding Kaioshin's apparent cowardice during the sequence in Bobbidi's ship, and what they feel that implies about his strength compared to the base Saiyans and thus in turn compared to Piccolo. But in such cases, even that tends to stem from an inability or unwillingness to focus on anything but power levels.

I always felt that it was because they had no idea that Saiyans were on Earth and had gotten so outstrippingly powerful, so their big hangups with Buu are justified from their perspective because for them Babidi and Buu and crew are outright horrors. Not to mention many of their abilities like Dabura's spit or Buu's candy beam completely ignore how strong you are once you're hit by them, and it catches Piccolo, Krillin and several other people completely off-guard.

As for this scene, I figured it was because Kaioshin was both powerful AND a God, as you explained. The scene is meant to be foreshadowing to 'shin's otherwordly origins, which Piccolo (through Kami) has some conception and experience of, which of the cast is unique to him. Plus, it's not the first time this happened: I recall Kid Goku inducing this effect with several TB fighters during the preliminaries, and there it was the same basic idea of "I can just sense this kid is MAGNITUDES above me" without being able to sense his power at all.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Frankly, the far-and-away most common reason I see people bring up this "was Kaioshin REALLY stronger though" sentiment is out of some hangup or another regarding Kaioshin's apparent cowardice during the sequence in Bobbidi's ship, and what they feel that implies about his strength compared to the base Saiyans and thus in turn compared to Piccolo. But in such cases, even that tends to stem from an inability or unwillingness to focus on anything but power levels.

I always felt that it was because they had no idea that Saiyans were on Earth and had gotten so outstrippingly powerful, so their big hangups with Buu are justified from their perspective because for them Babidi and Buu and crew are outright horrors. Not to mention many of their abilities like Dabura's spit or Buu's candy beam completely ignore how strong you are once you're hit by them, and it catches Piccolo, Krillin and several other people completely off-guard.

As for this scene, I figured it was because Kaioshin was both powerful AND a God, as you explained. The scene is meant to be foreshadowing to 'shin's otherwordly origins, which Piccolo (through Kami) has some conception and experience of, which of the cast is unique to him. Plus, it's not the first time this happened: I recall Kid Goku inducing this effect with several TB fighters during the preliminaries, and there it was the same basic idea of "I can just sense this kid is MAGNITUDES above me" without being able to sense his power at all.

Didn't the same thing happen with Vegeta and Whis when he tried to attack him early in DBS?

[KBABZ]

Didn't the same thing happen with Vegeta and Whis when he tried to attack him early in DBS?

You'd know better than me, I haven't watched Super yet.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Didn't the same thing happen with Vegeta and Whis when he tried to attack him early in DBS?

You'd know better than me, I haven't watched Super yet.

Well it's not a major spoiler, but at one point shortly after the BoG arc, Vegeta tried to attack him (this was before he could sense god ki and he had no idea how strong Whis actually was) but he suddenly became paralyzed with fear and felt something indicating Whis was way stronger than him.

Here is the scene in the English dub:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPthot0Kc68

[KBABZ]

Well it's not a major spoiler, but at one point shortly after the BoG arc, Vegeta tried to attack him (this was before he could sense god ki and he had no idea how strong Whis actually was) but he suddenly became paralyzed with fear and felt something indicating Whis was way stronger than him.

Here is the scene in the English dub:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPthot0Kc68

Hmm, that does seem very similar to Piccolo's inability to fight Kaioshin. At the same time, I didn't really pick out that Vegeta felt overwhelmed by what he sensed in Whis, and more like there was something holding him back. With the scenes I was thinking of with Kid Goku, I distinctly remember a shot from the perspective of his opponent showing that Goku's mere presence was vastly overwhelming him and making him realize there was NO WAY he could hope to win. Given the God Ki thing and how the scene with Piccolo was handled, I was kind of expecting the same with Vegeta and Whis.

That said it could easily be chalked up to Super's storytelling.

[90sDBZ]

This reminds me of the What-if scenario in Tenkaichi 2 where Piccolo goes ahead and kicks his ass, only to later realise who he is and be like "What have I done!".

Go to to 2:13 in this video to check it out.
https://youtu.be/Hz3lG2D6o2A

I personally like to think that Piccolo would be stronger than him. At least he deserves to be due to his courageous nature and years of training.

[Gligarman]

Lol, I love how they feared him at first and now the Kaioshin is pretty much at the mercy of half of the principle cast at this point.

[ABED]

Lol, I love how they feared him at first and now the Kaioshin is pretty much at the mercy of half of the principle cast at this point.

He did have a hell of an introduction. There was an aura about him that the character never lived up to.

[Gligarman]

Lol, I love how they feared him at first and now the Kaioshin is pretty much at the mercy of half of the principle cast at this point.

He did have a hell of an introduction. There was an aura about him that the character never lived up to.

Yeah, it was a cool intro. He's just kind of adorable now.

[KBABZ]

Lol, I love how they feared him at first and now the Kaioshin is pretty much at the mercy of half of the principle cast at this point.

He did have a hell of an introduction. There was an aura about him that the character never lived up to.

Yeah, it was a cool intro. He's just kind of adorable now.

Tell you what, I realized it totally falls into the trope of giving an important deity figure a reverent introduction and then doing its darndest to completely make them look irrelevant!

[Vijay]

While I admit Piccolo's fear of Kaioshin's "godly" status to play major part.....I'll have to say Kaioshin also has some degree of mystique skills/manuevers that puts him several notches higher than Piccolo

I dont mean to sound fanboy...but Kaioshin showed some feats to support he's at least somewhat stronger than Boo Arc Piccolo

1. Dude managed to restrict SSJ2 Gohan's power @ Tenkaichi Budoukai (which is not only an impossible feat 4 Piccolo...but he's already weaker than SSJ2 Gohan)
2. Kaioshin actually attempted some attacks on Fat Boo...while Piccolo jizzed his pants @ mere sight of Boo & preceedes to escape with tail between his legs upon his ressurection...which brings me to my next point
3. Kaioshin is a "survivor". Not only survived psychological phobia dat his demon of his nightmare would be awakened at anytime ever since fighting Babidi's minions...dude survived mental, emotional & physical punishments (took Boo's beatings, survived Majin Vegeta's suicidal explosion & still continued his journey to save Gohan)....now these feats...I doubt Piccolo could do any of em

[Piccolo_Daima]

I always took this whole thing as being a matter of respect. Part of Piccolo was Kami for many centuries, he must feel a great deal of respect towards a high ranking god as East Kaioshin is. It's not about Kaioshin being stronger than Piccolo, it's about Kaioshin outranking him, so Piccolo forfeits the match out of respect. He felt humbled by the presence of such an illustrious person.

There's one evidence that makes me think Kaioshin is weaker than Piccolo,- in chapter 459 of the manga, Kaioshin has huge doubts that he will defeat Babidi or not. He just stands there looking, while Piccolo defeated Babidi with one simple stroke.

[Saiga]

Piccolo was left paralyzed with fear against Raditz and then with Cell, so I have no idea why people even think it's out of character for him to realize when he's outclassed.

[WittyUsername]

I’ve always been under the impression that when it comes raw power, Shin was all talk. He was clearly shocked by how Vegeta was easily able to dominate Pui Pui, and Goku had no difficulty threatening him into submission.

[TobyS]

It's weird. I have no problem him being weaker.

But Shin is below SS2 and IMO above SS1s (at least the super kids and base adults) yet piccolo was prepared to fight them....

I have to think he is stronger but wouldn't have surrendered without the respect also... He's prepared to fight GoD beerus when it's life and death and enters the tourbaments in super fighting a stronger frost and like 80 varying fighters later... So strength alone wouldn't paralyze him.

Shins fear of pui pui later makes it weird also as he turns out to be weaker than base geets...

Doesn't he also get told to keeps shins identity a secret? So if he tells anyone he only surrendered because of the power gap could easily be the cover story, but I can't remember the exact dialogue and order of events tbh.

Shin does fight zamasu in Super manga and is a brave dude. He wanted to fight Buu as kibiotoshin. He's not a coward after all so I don't get embarrassed by him surpassing Piccolo.

What I'd like to know is if there's been any power gap change since ToP. Is shin the same? Has Piccolo closed the gap at least somewhat?