New "Remastered Box Set" Information
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Deus ex Machina
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Not that my purchase was ever really in jeapordy to begin with, but after weighing the facts now finally presented in this wide screen fiasco, I am still really psyched about this release, and watching it in wide screen will be just fine by me. As long as the film quality itself has been professionally fixed and cleaned up, that's really all that matters.
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Sebastian (SB)
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After seeing some of the things & justifiable views/points being presented in this topic, I just might purchase this set. Until then, I'll hold off on my money.
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[quote="penguintruth"]In the case of the Mountain Dew, the DBZ dub is like drinking Mountain Dew and thinking, "I sure do love Coca Cola!"[/quote]
Send me a message letting me know who you are
[quote="penguintruth"]In the case of the Mountain Dew, the DBZ dub is like drinking Mountain Dew and thinking, "I sure do love Coca Cola!"[/quote]
No, it would not be a great release because we would be going back to the same problem that FUNimation is simply unable to do a consistient single volume release of DBZ. So i'd rather get the whole show than nothing at all thanks.mister yummy wrote: And, for the Saiya-jin Saga, for example, episodes 1-4 with Dragonbox footage, the Japanese audio track, the UUc Audio Track, Steve's subtitles, and the origional dub episodes 1-3. Now that would be a great release, would it not? I'd pay more for that than I would 29 episodes worth of cropped footage.
Subsequently, being against HDTV because idiot suits decide to use it impracticall is pretty backwards thinking.l It could be a great thing, if people use it properly, which people are starting to do and have done for years (general awareness yay)
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Brad Redfield
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It "appears" to me that there isn't being as much picture being lost than I initially thought. HOWEVER: instead of giving us examples of these small scenes, how about some real shots to illustrate how this whole widescreen business works?
How about some action sequences or splitscreen moments? That'll really put Funimation's format to the test. It almost seems like they are intentionally (or avoiding) not showing us screencaps/comparisions from those scenes. I wonder why?
How about some action sequences or splitscreen moments? That'll really put Funimation's format to the test. It almost seems like they are intentionally (or avoiding) not showing us screencaps/comparisions from those scenes. I wonder why?
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Brad Redfield
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Maybe I do. I just want to see some real comparision shots, not captures of a panning scene or some small, humor-oriented moment. I want to see how much this format really affects the show with captures of scenes that were obviously made for 4:3, like the splitscreen shots posted earlier.Kendamu wrote:What you want to hear is "they have something to hide" right?
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ect5150
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You probably shouldn't be. The issue here is people want the original form of DBZ, but widescreen is actually how TVs should be. Why, you ask? Just measure the aspect ratio of your eyes. They are roughly 16:9 in their width to height.mister yummy wrote:I'm against the idea of 16:9 Television in general, but that's just one of my little idiosynchrosies.
And yes, they should release the "classics" as column boxed then. That's looking to be the only available solution other than cropping the "classics"
ect5150
Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
DB DBox color corrections & DBox color corrections.
Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
DB DBox color corrections & DBox color corrections.
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Amiable-Akuma
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^^^yeah, seriously...mister yummy - I think you scared a lot of people with that rant you posted...I mean, everybody's entitled...but talk about the "dissenting opinion"...wow.
Anyway, about these recent comparison pics - the first thought I had when looking at them was "oh, OK, so the whole reason Funi is doing this is because they don't want to spend any extra time/money on clean-up like Toei did with the Dragonboxes".
There is naturally more damage to the top and bottom areas of a films negative/frame then to the sides - so instead of doing a frame-by-frame clean-up like Toei did to preserve the original vision/ratio - Funi is just zooming in and cropping in a "new way" while trying to pretend that it can't get better than this.
I am almost positive this must be the case. I mean, everything they've shown, done, and said about this release (and the way they've handled DB throughout history) points to this being true. They do absolutely know that they are bullshiting us and that they are losing the director's intended vision, and the best way to really see the show. However, they have just decided that this is "good enough" or the best compromise for their allotted budget and that they can spoon-feed it to the mass-market as gold - hardcore fans be damned.
They know that in this early time when fan word-of-mouth on the release is high - that they can throw out some carefully selected BS screenshots and a bunch of technical jibberish that they know most won't understand or care to research - and that will be enough to re-assure (i.e. brainwash) the majority, the mainstream. Meanwhile, those who run Funi (not necessarily the group they hired for the "restoration") and are handling this release are actually so dense that the only way they would have ever even known/seen that 5 discs wasn't enough to hold all this stuff - is by being forced to listen to weeks of fan out-cry on their message boards.
And while I appreciate what they've done for this release in terms of things like pricing and ENG audio on the JPN track - I feel that we now have a serious indication that the most serious problems will remain.
Namely, everything that involves the actual video and differs from how the show actually should be seen since:
1.) Widescreen is cropping off the important parts of the film and adding nothing. In fact, it's actually mis-framing the show! The show was developed and created from beginning to end so that it would be shown in 4:3! Now the tops of heads, bottoms of feet will be cut off so we get to see a little more "air" on the sides. Now if we watch this "widescreen" any shot that doesn't pan or have people sitting at the corners of the frame - will potentially look awkward since everything is "bunched" toward the middle with only useless data on the side. I have to wonder, with a lot of scenes, if Toei even ever bothered to carefully draw those outside portions that were never intended to be shown. I mean we're talking 300 episodes here. We already know that within the different animator groups - corners were definitely cut at times...
But, moreover, - I can't believe how us serious fans have been pissed at Funi for so long for "zooming in" too much and cutting off a solid percentage of the film on all sides - yet now what do they do to correct it and re-pay us?! They just crop off the entire section we've been wanting to see!
Good one, Funi. 
2.) It's obvious that Funi still has every intention of fucking with the color saturation. And make no mistake - this is RUINING the look of the picture, the show quality in general.
-Go here to see proof: http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.p ... dragon+box
The D-Box footage looks like it's some kind of hand-painted artwork with subtle but gorgeous touches in its lighting and details. The Funi stuff looks like bloated ass.
3.) Them not wanting to do a "serious" frame-by-frame restoration or clean-up probably means that while there is less noise on the screen then in their previous releases - we will still see a ton of things like scratches, distracting "cigarette" burns, and other junk that still affects so many frames of the films negative. And if you read the story of how Toei had to clean up the negative, and/or if you've watched any Funi episode with two eyes - then you know that to say that such things occur often - would have to be the understatement of the year.
The serious per-frame damage that exists on the original film print is astounding. I think that especially when you watch some of the Funi episodes upconverted on a HDTV - it is truly shocking how practically every other second these flaws pop up and are distracting.
I mean that was the whole point of doing what Toei did is such a way with their restoration for the Dragonboxes - they had discovered that the original negatives were reaching the pinnacle of their wear and tear - and that it was time to create a new clean master for the future.
But what is the point of restoration this time for Funi? I guess, to decrease the evidence of noise/grain enough so that we can see the other flaws in the film much more clearly... Yeah. Oh, and also so they have another nice marketing buzz word with which to lure people in and spout off with in their loud, BS trailers for the set. Again, good one, Funi.
SO - what we're left with - after having seen these episodes released in several incorrect forms already - after having to endure them just unceremoniously dropping the Ultimate Uncut editions - after people have already invested in collecting so much - is actually the same or less then what we've always got from Funi for 8 plus years. The actual video you're seeing, overall, is no better then the stuff we've rallied against all this time.
It's just that now instead of having "zoomed in" to cut out some of the important viewing space - they have just cropped more of it off entirely. The show now is actually completely mis-framed. Oh, and maybe the video will look a little cleaner then what we used to see - but then again maybe not - since they are now putting more episodes and audio tracks per disc, still screwing with saturation (which in and of itself can actually make unsightly video noise/grain easier to see), and not going through any serious restoration that would remove actual damage to the film negative (like Toei did).
Whoop-tee-do.
Wait-a-minute - now it's even worse actually. Now not only are they still delivering flawed crap - but this time they are ALSO treating us like morons, insulting our intelligence and trying to act like their are the most generous, customer-friendly company out there - when they actually know they are just completely lying to us, deceiving us - for the umpteenth time. AND LADIES AND GENTLEMAN - the ironic thing is that - THEY PAID FOR AND HAD THE ORIGINAL FILM PRINT! They COULD HAVE actually given us THE BEST SHIT EVER!!!!!! BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. They just spit on us and wait to taking our money...
Anyway, about these recent comparison pics - the first thought I had when looking at them was "oh, OK, so the whole reason Funi is doing this is because they don't want to spend any extra time/money on clean-up like Toei did with the Dragonboxes".
There is naturally more damage to the top and bottom areas of a films negative/frame then to the sides - so instead of doing a frame-by-frame clean-up like Toei did to preserve the original vision/ratio - Funi is just zooming in and cropping in a "new way" while trying to pretend that it can't get better than this.
I am almost positive this must be the case. I mean, everything they've shown, done, and said about this release (and the way they've handled DB throughout history) points to this being true. They do absolutely know that they are bullshiting us and that they are losing the director's intended vision, and the best way to really see the show. However, they have just decided that this is "good enough" or the best compromise for their allotted budget and that they can spoon-feed it to the mass-market as gold - hardcore fans be damned.
They know that in this early time when fan word-of-mouth on the release is high - that they can throw out some carefully selected BS screenshots and a bunch of technical jibberish that they know most won't understand or care to research - and that will be enough to re-assure (i.e. brainwash) the majority, the mainstream. Meanwhile, those who run Funi (not necessarily the group they hired for the "restoration") and are handling this release are actually so dense that the only way they would have ever even known/seen that 5 discs wasn't enough to hold all this stuff - is by being forced to listen to weeks of fan out-cry on their message boards.
And while I appreciate what they've done for this release in terms of things like pricing and ENG audio on the JPN track - I feel that we now have a serious indication that the most serious problems will remain.
Namely, everything that involves the actual video and differs from how the show actually should be seen since:
1.) Widescreen is cropping off the important parts of the film and adding nothing. In fact, it's actually mis-framing the show! The show was developed and created from beginning to end so that it would be shown in 4:3! Now the tops of heads, bottoms of feet will be cut off so we get to see a little more "air" on the sides. Now if we watch this "widescreen" any shot that doesn't pan or have people sitting at the corners of the frame - will potentially look awkward since everything is "bunched" toward the middle with only useless data on the side. I have to wonder, with a lot of scenes, if Toei even ever bothered to carefully draw those outside portions that were never intended to be shown. I mean we're talking 300 episodes here. We already know that within the different animator groups - corners were definitely cut at times...
But, moreover, - I can't believe how us serious fans have been pissed at Funi for so long for "zooming in" too much and cutting off a solid percentage of the film on all sides - yet now what do they do to correct it and re-pay us?! They just crop off the entire section we've been wanting to see!
Good one, Funi. 2.) It's obvious that Funi still has every intention of fucking with the color saturation. And make no mistake - this is RUINING the look of the picture, the show quality in general.
-Go here to see proof: http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.p ... dragon+box
The D-Box footage looks like it's some kind of hand-painted artwork with subtle but gorgeous touches in its lighting and details. The Funi stuff looks like bloated ass.
3.) Them not wanting to do a "serious" frame-by-frame restoration or clean-up probably means that while there is less noise on the screen then in their previous releases - we will still see a ton of things like scratches, distracting "cigarette" burns, and other junk that still affects so many frames of the films negative. And if you read the story of how Toei had to clean up the negative, and/or if you've watched any Funi episode with two eyes - then you know that to say that such things occur often - would have to be the understatement of the year.
The serious per-frame damage that exists on the original film print is astounding. I think that especially when you watch some of the Funi episodes upconverted on a HDTV - it is truly shocking how practically every other second these flaws pop up and are distracting.
I mean that was the whole point of doing what Toei did is such a way with their restoration for the Dragonboxes - they had discovered that the original negatives were reaching the pinnacle of their wear and tear - and that it was time to create a new clean master for the future.
But what is the point of restoration this time for Funi? I guess, to decrease the evidence of noise/grain enough so that we can see the other flaws in the film much more clearly... Yeah. Oh, and also so they have another nice marketing buzz word with which to lure people in and spout off with in their loud, BS trailers for the set. Again, good one, Funi.
SO - what we're left with - after having seen these episodes released in several incorrect forms already - after having to endure them just unceremoniously dropping the Ultimate Uncut editions - after people have already invested in collecting so much - is actually the same or less then what we've always got from Funi for 8 plus years. The actual video you're seeing, overall, is no better then the stuff we've rallied against all this time.
It's just that now instead of having "zoomed in" to cut out some of the important viewing space - they have just cropped more of it off entirely. The show now is actually completely mis-framed. Oh, and maybe the video will look a little cleaner then what we used to see - but then again maybe not - since they are now putting more episodes and audio tracks per disc, still screwing with saturation (which in and of itself can actually make unsightly video noise/grain easier to see), and not going through any serious restoration that would remove actual damage to the film negative (like Toei did).
Whoop-tee-do.
Wait-a-minute - now it's even worse actually. Now not only are they still delivering flawed crap - but this time they are ALSO treating us like morons, insulting our intelligence and trying to act like their are the most generous, customer-friendly company out there - when they actually know they are just completely lying to us, deceiving us - for the umpteenth time. AND LADIES AND GENTLEMAN - the ironic thing is that - THEY PAID FOR AND HAD THE ORIGINAL FILM PRINT! They COULD HAVE actually given us THE BEST SHIT EVER!!!!!! BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. They just spit on us and wait to taking our money...
Last edited by Amiable-Akuma on Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:33 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Amiable-Akuma
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Oh, and don't get me started on their description and revelation of "overscan". Jesus, was I the only one who had his intelligence personally insulted when they read that? I mean, why would they even mention that in this day and age, at this point in time in our discussions with them? Pure spin is the only reason. Lord, Funi is getting as bad as Sony with their "clever marketing speak". Who do they think we are - idiots who are sitting around illiterate, watching cartoons on an old CRT while trying to adjust a rabbit ear antenna?!
Hell no, we're all geniuses who read and research this tech jargon regularly/as necessary and are watching or are saving up to watch anime on an HDTV/Monitor/HTPC! Do they know their audience at all? Anybody who didn't care about picture quality would have bought one of their older releases, or downloaded it, burned it, would be happy with just the manga, their old fansub tapes or whatever. The target audience for THIS release - is people that want a DEFINITIVE picture quality release and that are still willing to triple-dip that purchase after all Funi's years of BULLSHIT! That's not as large a group as Funi thinks it might be...and the group is getting SMALLER every time they continue to pull this crap...
Funi needs to start finally catering to and listening to this group of fans - before those fans realize that the Dragon Box singles will be dropping in price sooner or later and that "hey, - it is actually very fun to just watch the show clean without subtitles" - that there are a lot of ways to get around watching the show without having the subs take up the screen. Knowing what is being said (actually very easy/natural with DB), having manga next to you, having printed script next to you, having digital script display on laptop/palm pilot next to you, watching the show on your PC/HTPC w/the US subs running windowed concurrently/underneath the D-box footage, etc, etc.
I actually watch the D-box eps while just displaying the script text on my little Gameboy Advance SP screen. Works perfectly and I couldn't imagine a better way to watch the show now. Rarely do I even have to look at the screen anyway though - since I enjoy watching the episodes I just watched over again and you are immediately aware of all that's being said/going on the second time (if not the first, let's face it).
Hell no, we're all geniuses who read and research this tech jargon regularly/as necessary and are watching or are saving up to watch anime on an HDTV/Monitor/HTPC! Do they know their audience at all? Anybody who didn't care about picture quality would have bought one of their older releases, or downloaded it, burned it, would be happy with just the manga, their old fansub tapes or whatever. The target audience for THIS release - is people that want a DEFINITIVE picture quality release and that are still willing to triple-dip that purchase after all Funi's years of BULLSHIT! That's not as large a group as Funi thinks it might be...and the group is getting SMALLER every time they continue to pull this crap...
Funi needs to start finally catering to and listening to this group of fans - before those fans realize that the Dragon Box singles will be dropping in price sooner or later and that "hey, - it is actually very fun to just watch the show clean without subtitles" - that there are a lot of ways to get around watching the show without having the subs take up the screen. Knowing what is being said (actually very easy/natural with DB), having manga next to you, having printed script next to you, having digital script display on laptop/palm pilot next to you, watching the show on your PC/HTPC w/the US subs running windowed concurrently/underneath the D-box footage, etc, etc.
I actually watch the D-box eps while just displaying the script text on my little Gameboy Advance SP screen. Works perfectly and I couldn't imagine a better way to watch the show now. Rarely do I even have to look at the screen anyway though - since I enjoy watching the episodes I just watched over again and you are immediately aware of all that's being said/going on the second time (if not the first, let's face it).
Last edited by Amiable-Akuma on Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MajinVejitaXV
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Amiable-Akuma
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Okay, I now would also like to use this time to remind everybody of this post from DBW some 20 pages ago. As you can see from the below, the show is framed 4:3. The characters/focus are always set to the middle. The sides are never important but the top and bottom absolutely are. Anything removed from the top or bottom will hurt the picture and I would also argue that stuff added to the side - would hurt the picture as well. I mean, it's just fluff that will remind you it's mis-framed. A 4:3 show - should never be cropped to widescreen like this - period. If we want a 4:3 show to fill a widescreen TV, we will set the TV/DVD player so that it stretches the picture. Then at least we know we are stretching the entire viewable original shot design - and not further manipulating some crap that has already been cropped or zoomed in on.
-Funi's really screwed the pooch here if you ask me. I also have to question some of what may exist on the outer sides of the frame for a lot of these shots. Seems like since it was never the intended framing that there may be several times when there is nothing but blank space, or blank color, or just stretched/muddy bullshit on those "extra" outer sides.
And the above problems are clearly evident but that is to say nothing of the following "obviously painful to see cropped" shots such as the below:DBW wrote:Ok, so I was really bored and thinking about this whole widescreen deal. I was actually planning on buying the first set, not for the remastered video or anything, but just to hear the dub with the original music (yeah, I'm curious). The price is right...yeah FUNi's screwing up the video, what else is new...but what the hell, I'll just buy it anyways, right? Well, not anymore...
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o150 ... 234935.jpg
When I was looking at this 4-way screenshot earlier, I began to wonder what it would be like to watch the entire episode cropped, rather than just looking at one scene (which clearly faults the 16:9 ratio). Honestly, I knew it would suck, but I didn't think it would be too bad. So I popped in the episode and payed close attention to how they framed the action, just kind of pretending that the top and bottom were cut off.
Unfortunately, when you sit through an entire episode and really pay attention to how it's framed, you can really see that they take advantage of the 4:3 ratio throughout. I don't know about the rest of you, but I can honestly say that, after really looking at the episode, I would never want to see episode 34 in widescreen ~never~ Also compare what will be lost to what will be gained on the sides. Trading off Vegeta's impact after the Genki Dama to capture a bit more of his foot? No thank you!
I went ahead and took a bunch of shots that stood out to me, just so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. Sorry, I'm not good with photo editing, so I didn't put the black bars on. Someone else can do it if they really want, but I think you get the idea...
Not really pertaining to episode 34, but it begs the question of whether or not FUNimation got the credits this time. The opening lyrics had to be cut for the cropped movies, so how would they stand on cropped TV episodes?
The title card will be ok, except for the dragonball on the bottom of the frame.
Ok, so we get into the episode and we come to this scene. Gohan is getting hammered out of frame, but Vegeta is static here, and is clearly framed to fit the 4:3 screen. Imagine this scene cropped, not so hot... Unfortunately, there are many scenes like this, where the action is set to a certain corner, or moves to a corner, etc.
One of many group shots. Gyuumao might make it out ok, but I don't think Uranai Baba and Oolong will be so lucky...
Gohan performs a Masenko and screams out Kamehame-Ha.One of many scenes where a character is in frame, but what he's doing (his hand's position) will be cropped.
Another recurring shot throughout the episode. This scene will definately look strange with the top cut off...
Here's a neat shot where Vegeta is approaching Gohan and we can see his hand in the foreground. Not a big loss, but I thought it was a nice touch to the scene.
Here's one I didn't even think about until I saw it. What's gonna happen to the top of this eyecatch?
Again, this isn't a major loss, but the effect of Vegeta stretching out as he explodes won't be so spectacular when cropped...
Gohan slowly approaching Goku. This scene actually starts with Gohan fully visible, and the shot I took is one of the last frames. The problem is that in 4:3 we never lose Gohan's eyes, while in widescreen the shot will begin with his eyes just in frame, and as he approaches Goku his eyes will be disappearing off the screen. This one really bothers me.
Vegeta falls through the frame and lands on the ground. You'll still see the fall, but unfortunately his impact will be cropped...
This is another one that really bothers me. There's about a dozen or so scenes in this episode with Goku lying on the very bottom of the frame. Cropping Goku's expression here would be a fucking travesty.
And here's some shots I noticed during the ending credits. Hopefully FUNimation is smart enough to shift these scenes up for the widescreen master...
The scrolling dragon at the top.
Piccolo's head.
Gohan and the Kinto'un.
Tenshinhan and Yamucha.
Yajirobe (I guess Kami and Popo as well).
And finally this makes me wonder if they got the next episode previews...framing this to widescreen would be weird to say the least.
-Funi's really screwed the pooch here if you ask me. I also have to question some of what may exist on the outer sides of the frame for a lot of these shots. Seems like since it was never the intended framing that there may be several times when there is nothing but blank space, or blank color, or just stretched/muddy bullshit on those "extra" outer sides.
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TheSonofKakarrot
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I was originally sold from the beginning but after watching that 480p trailer I'm 200% sold. The widescreen issue doesn't really bug me, although at this point it seems kinda awkward that that'd do that, but in my opinion, having the Japanese BGM in 5.1 surround and having English voices with Japanese BGM more than makes up for it. Not even the Dragonboxes have 5.1 surround do they? They have a 2.0 mono track, which is the same as FUNi's current DVD's, although I've heard it sounds better because of better encoding?
I'm really looking forward to these. I know it might have been posted before, but has any website besides rightstuf been taking preorders?
I'm really looking forward to these. I know it might have been posted before, but has any website besides rightstuf been taking preorders?
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Maphisto86
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Damn "Amiable-Akuma"... well said! 
You really should put this rant on FUNI's forums in order to kick some reason into their proverbial groin area.
How long will we have to wait until they deliver us what we want
. I say just stick it to em and not buy this set. End of story... 
You really should put this rant on FUNI's forums in order to kick some reason into their proverbial groin area.How long will we have to wait until they deliver us what we want
. I say just stick it to em and not buy this set. End of story...
Last edited by Maphisto86 on Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eclipse
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5.1...ehh...They did not say what the actual Japanese audio was in, they just noted that the English dub with Japanese BGM was 5.1 . I honestly don't know if the BGM is 5.1, considering the Dragon Boxes weren't. Although the original Pioneer movie DVDs did have the Japanese BGM for the English track, although it was much more quieter than the Japanese track (Both were in mono). It might be something similar to that.having the Japanese BGM in 5.1 surround and having English voices with Japanese BGM more than makes up for it. Not even the Dragonboxes have 5.1 surround do they? They have a 2.0 mono track, which is the same as FUNi's current DVD's, although I've heard it sounds better because of better encoding?
Thing is, they dont need a 5.1 Japanese track to make a 5.1 mix. all they need is the Music and Effects track, which they can then upmix and basically lay the voices over.Eclipse wrote:5.1...ehh...They did not say what the actual Japanese audio was in, they just noted that the English dub with Japanese BGM was 5.1 . I honestly don't know if the BGM is 5.1, considering the Dragon Boxes weren't. Although the original Pioneer movie DVDs did have the Japanese BGM for the English track, although it was much more quieter than the Japanese track (Both were in mono). It might be something similar to that.having the Japanese BGM in 5.1 surround and having English voices with Japanese BGM more than makes up for it. Not even the Dragonboxes have 5.1 surround do they? They have a 2.0 mono track, which is the same as FUNi's current DVD's, although I've heard it sounds better because of better encoding?