With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:55 pm
It's not an issue of having another genre in DB, it's that romance feels out of place.
Dragon Ball went from parody and comedy to five year olds getting their necks broken but a little bit of romance is Just Too Far. Wow.

Literally no reason we can't get a little romance or queer content if the staff want to.
It went from something of a parody to a more straight forwards action series, still with plenty of humor, without even crossing into another genre or stop being targeted at young boys.

Adding more overt romance regardless of sexuality would feel as out of place as the perfunctory romance blockbusters add to "appeal to women".
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:22 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:55 pm
It's not an issue of having another genre in DB, it's that romance feels out of place.
Dragon Ball went from parody and comedy to five year olds getting their necks broken but a little bit of romance is Just Too Far. Wow.

Literally no reason we can't get a little romance or queer content if the staff want to.

Martial arts and fighting was always ingrained in the series DNA even when it was a Journey to the West parody. The series never did romance. It had horny characters and lovesick characters as a joke but it never did romance. It’s just not something the series is interested in and/or capable of doing.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:50 pm

There's always been a little romance in Dragon Ball. And more than a little sexuality. So on that basis, there's no reason there couldn't be any LGBTQ elements brought in.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:22 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:50 pm
There's always been a little romance in Dragon Ball. And more than a little sexuality. So on that basis, there's no reason there couldn't be any LGBTQ elements brought in.
The closest we get to legit romance is Gohan & Videl and that was very chaste.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:22 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:50 pm
There's always been a little romance in Dragon Ball. And more than a little sexuality. So on that basis, there's no reason there couldn't be any LGBTQ elements brought in.
The closest we get to legit romance is Gohan & Videl and that was very chaste.
There was also Kuririn and #18, though that was also pretty minor.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:57 pm

No series should feel obligated to include any demographic, especially not a series, especially not a series where even heterosexuality is merely treated as a means for Toriyama to produce a new character. Sexual identity and romance in general is sun a foreign concept to Dragon Ball I don't know why anybody should waste time trying to explore it.
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:55 pm
It's not an issue of having another genre in DB, it's that romance feels out of place.
Dragon Ball went from parody and comedy to five year olds getting their necks broken but a little bit of romance is Just Too Far. Wow.

Literally no reason we can't get a little romance or queer content if the staff want to.
It went from a parody of martial arts to martial arts played straight. Not really a leap in genres at all. Even the first chapter featured a 12 year old getting shot in the head,
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:33 pm

I still don't get how some people think adding LGBT characters in pop media is now a new hot thing when people have been doing it for ages? I think Dragon Ball having some LGBT love would be great if you ask me.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:35 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:52 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:22 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:50 pm
There's always been a little romance in Dragon Ball. And more than a little sexuality. So on that basis, there's no reason there couldn't be any LGBTQ elements brought in.
The closest we get to legit romance is Gohan & Videl and that was very chaste.
There was also Kuririn and #18, though that was also pretty minor.
We got a kiss on the cheek. Someday they might hold hands!
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:48 pm

The point is that sex and romance are an undeniable part of Dragon Ball. So would something that falls into the LGBTQ spectrum really be out of place?

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:59 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:48 pm
The point is that sex and romance are an undeniable part of Dragon Ball. So would something that falls into the LGBTQ spectrum really be out of place?
But not in any great degree. The romance is barely there. How many kisses have we actually seen in the entire story?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:00 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:48 pm
The point is that sex and romance are an undeniable part of Dragon Ball
I would argue they’re really not. You get sexually depraved characters like Roshi and Oolong but sex is treated as only a means for characters to reproduce. There really isn’t intimacy in Dragon Ball.

There’s characters who love ...love like Kuririn and Yamucha wanting to get married or Bulma wanting tje perfect boyfriend but the story doesn’t really focus on romance. Most of the romantic aspects are either glossed over or treated as a gag. Or throwing a character a bone in the case of Kuririn and 18, which again, the actual courtship was entirely skipped over.
So would something that falls into the LGBTQ spectrum really be out of place?
Nothing wrong with having LGBTQ characters. We have characters who are aggressively heterosexual. But I think having gay characters (and not walking gay punchlines like Blue) is a separate issue from gay romance. Including LGBTQ characters would be perfectly valid. Giving sudden focus on queer romance (or any romance let’s be honest) would feel a bit odd.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 pm

This topic has reminded me of a simple fact about Toriyama: he’s not good with including sentimentality or intimacy in his work. Even ignoring the fact that he has admitted to not being good at writing romance, the closest the series has gotten to truly being sentimental with him behind the wheel was Dragon Ball Minus, which is a incredibly short story that happens to be universally hated.

Taking that into account, Dragon Ball probably isn’t the kind of series that someone should look to for representation.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by PhoenixEX » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:58 pm

I don't know. To be honest, with an anime like Dragon Ball it wouldn't make much sense because not even the straight characters have the courtesy of having their relationships explored (other than the last 3 or 4 filler episodes of Dragon Ball, I guess). I think that if Tien showed up one day at a party or something with a boyfriend that'd be alright, but an entire episode or arc dedicated towards exploring Tien's sexuality wouldn't make sense in Dragon Ball. If you want to see that there's plenty of other anime dedicated towards that I'm sure.

Also, Goku Black and Zamasu are not gay. Neither are Kale and Caulifla. If you want to make believe that they are, that's totally your choice. The majority of fans, however, would probably disagree. I don't believe TOEI has confirmed anything either.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:59 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:48 pm
The point is that sex and romance are an undeniable part of Dragon Ball. So would something that falls into the LGBTQ spectrum really be out of place?
But not in any great degree. The romance is barely there. How many kisses have we actually seen in the entire story?
You don't have to show physical intimacy to know that love and sex are a part of the series.

We know Bulma is drawn to be sexually attractive for the sake of Toriyama's perverted story beats, we have Roshi and Oolong lusting after women constantly. Bulma and Yamcha are depicted as an on again/off again couple throughout the series, Kuririn's biggest goal in life is to find a girlfriend and get married. Lunch pines for Tenshinhan. Goku and Chichi are married and have children. Bulma and Vegeta marry and have children. Kuririn and 18 marry and have children. Gohan and Videl date, marry, and have children. All of these things are integral to the story and characters.

So while the series doesn't revolve around love and sex, it certainly takes advantage of it.

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:00 pm
Giving sudden focus on queer romance (or any romance let’s be honest) would feel a bit odd.
The series doesn't have to shift its focus to romance. It would just include sexuality the same way its always included sexuality. Only with LGBTQ characters.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:51 pm

If the cartoon series can add a vague scene of Gokuu and Chi-Chi kissing I legitimately don't see how it would be distracting for Kale to kiss Caulifla or vice-versa after one of them wins a fight or something. Legitimately the bare minimum of what I would expect.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Dr. Casey » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:07 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 pm
This topic has reminded me of a simple fact about Toriyama: he’s not good with including sentimentality or intimacy in his work. Even ignoring the fact that he has admitted to not being good at writing romance, the closest the series has gotten to truly being sentimental with him behind the wheel was Dragon Ball Minus, which is a incredibly short story that happens to be universally hated.

Taking that into account, Dragon Ball probably isn’t the kind of series that someone should look to for representation.
I don't know about whether he has any skill with writing romance (or rather, whether he could do so if he gave it an honest effort), but he has more talent with sentimental scenes than he gives himself credit for. Goku's reunion with Grandpa Gohan, Goku hugging Goten at the 25th Budokai, Goku's regret after Piccolo snaps at him during Gohan's fight against Cell, a slew of others. Such scenes might be a low priority for Toriyama, but whenever he does write them, they range from being competent and nice (Goku meeting Goten) to knocking them out of the park (Goku's reunion with Grandpa Gohan).
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:59 pm

My take on the whole Zamasu/Black thing is if they are a couple, it's only because he's so narcissistic that the only partner that could ever be good enough for him is himself. :P
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:13 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:07 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 pm
This topic has reminded me of a simple fact about Toriyama: he’s not good with including sentimentality or intimacy in his work. Even ignoring the fact that he has admitted to not being good at writing romance, the closest the series has gotten to truly being sentimental with him behind the wheel was Dragon Ball Minus, which is a incredibly short story that happens to be universally hated.

Taking that into account, Dragon Ball probably isn’t the kind of series that someone should look to for representation.
I don't know about whether he has any skill with writing romance (or rather, whether he could do so if he gave it an honest effort), but he has more talent with sentimental scenes than he gives himself credit for. Goku's reunion with Grandpa Gohan, Goku hugging Goten at the 25th Budokai, Goku's regret after Piccolo snaps at him during Gohan's fight against Cell, a slew of others. Such scenes might be a low priority for Toriyama, but whenever he does write them, they range from being competent and nice (Goku meeting Goten) to knocking them out of the park (Goku's reunion with Grandpa Gohan).
Say it with me.

This is filler.
This is filler.
This is FILLER.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:37 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:13 pm
Dr. Casey wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:07 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:23 pm
This topic has reminded me of a simple fact about Toriyama: he’s not good with including sentimentality or intimacy in his work. Even ignoring the fact that he has admitted to not being good at writing romance, the closest the series has gotten to truly being sentimental with him behind the wheel was Dragon Ball Minus, which is a incredibly short story that happens to be universally hated.

Taking that into account, Dragon Ball probably isn’t the kind of series that someone should look to for representation.
I don't know about whether he has any skill with writing romance (or rather, whether he could do so if he gave it an honest effort), but he has more talent with sentimental scenes than he gives himself credit for. Goku's reunion with Grandpa Gohan, Goku hugging Goten at the 25th Budokai, Goku's regret after Piccolo snaps at him during Gohan's fight against Cell, a slew of others. Such scenes might be a low priority for Toriyama, but whenever he does write them, they range from being competent and nice (Goku meeting Goten) to knocking them out of the park (Goku's reunion with Grandpa Gohan).
Say it with me.

This is filler.
This is filler.
This is FILLER.
The Buu arc was very lacking in the manga so although there were some added scenes and the fights were extended, it was one of the few times it was needed to improve the story.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Dr. Casey » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:38 pm

Uh, okay. Relax. Still doesn't negate the broader point, since there's still plenty of manga scenes proving wrong Toriyama's own point. Could just be the general Japanese self-effacing, though.
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