With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:44 pm

Isn't Whis gay? And Kale more-or-less seems like a lesbian.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:00 pm

I'm of the belief that it's not "time to" do anything. I believe that every creator has the right to make his or her work the way that he or she sees fit. To complain about that, seems hypocritical. The fact is that if a creator decided to portray characters in a totally racist way, while I wouldn't like it, wouldn't watch it, wouldn't purchase it, and wouldn't want to hear about it, I truly believe that creator has this right. And I believe that the same standards should be used to determine that work's success as any other's -- that is to say that instead of just yanking it off the air, let it die its own death when nobody supports it. That's what it means to truly have freedom of expression, freedom of choice, and artistic freedom. Yes, media distributors do not have to comply with those liberties (they must comply with not being prejudicial against race), but I feel like most of their knee-jerk reactions center around what the public would think rather than their own taking offense. But to not get too far off-base, I don't think that anyone should be dictating to a creator which direction to take a story... unless they're contractually entitled to, of course.

To that extent, would I be okay with Dragon Ball being more up-to-date with its characters' gender identities and sexual preferences? Of course I would. Do I hope for it? I'm pretty indifferent, honestly, but I'm in support. To me, Dragon Ball was never romantic relationship centered, so I don't think it would make any sort of difference, but sure. I don't think it would be quite as impactful in Dragon Ball as it would in a romance or drama series.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:35 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:44 pm
Isn't Whis gay? And Kale more-or-less seems like a lesbian.
There is no statement either way regarding Whis’ sexuality. He acts flamboyant, and Toei had a scene of him blushing when he saw Beerus naked, but that’s about the full extent of it. As for Kale, there is certainly an argument to be made for her being gay, although that’s pretty much exclusive to the anime.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:31 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:35 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:44 pm
Isn't Whis gay? And Kale more-or-less seems like a lesbian.
There is no statement either way regarding Whis’ sexuality. He acts flamboyant, and Toei had a scene of him blushing when he saw Beerus naked, but that’s about the full extent of it. As for Kale, there is certainly an argument to be made for her being gay, although that’s pretty much exclusive to the anime.
I wouldn't be surprised if Whis was gay. However, there's also the fact that angels in DB don't seem to reproduce the way most other humanoid species do - Whis thought that Vegeta could get pregnant, and Daishinkan is the father of the other angels despite a mother never being mentioned, so perhaps they reproduce asexually, and male/female appearances for them are just cosmetic. That would actually explain a lot of what we see.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:13 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:00 pm
I'm of the belief that it's not "time to" do anything. I believe that every creator has the right to make his or her work the way that he or she sees fit. That's what it means to truly have freedom of expression, freedom of choice, and artistic freedom.
That right in America (and other Western countries) died a decade ago. Not only are creators expected to answer to social and political norms, they're harassed, threatened, and accused of what they're not if they don't. Thankfully that's not the case in Japan as for the most part, we get stories as they're intended to be told by their respective authors.

I do however also hold these creators responsible for what's going on in the West as them constantly giving in to these demands is what's empowering these people.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:26 am

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:13 am
That right in America (and other Western countries) died a decade ago. Not only are creators expected to answer to social and political norms, they're harassed, threatened, and accused of what they're not if they don't. Thankfully that's not the case in Japan as for the most part, we get stories as they're intended to be told by their respective authors.
I wouldn't call that "a right being lost". I'd call that society changing in such a way that some people make a stink over what they see in a movie. Not quite the same thing.

Now if the government LITERALLY banned movies like "Freddy Got Fingered", "Transformers", and other blatantly offensive movies from ever being made... Then I would say the right has been lost.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:32 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:26 am
sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:13 am
That right in America (and other Western countries) died a decade ago. Not only are creators expected to answer to social and political norms, they're harassed, threatened, and accused of what they're not if they don't. Thankfully that's not the case in Japan as for the most part, we get stories as they're intended to be told by their respective authors.
I wouldn't call that "a right being lost". I'd call that society changing in such a way that some people make a stink over what they see in a movie. Not quite the same thing.

it's also something that has been happening for like decades, most art is political. people wanting representation or more minority characters is not a new development.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:36 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:26 am
I wouldn't call that "a right being lost". I'd call that society changing in such a way that some people make a stink over what they see in a movie. Not quite the same thing.
I don't mean it lost in a government way but rather society (or rather a vocal minority that don't support what they call for) making such a fuss that companies won't support the creator or the creator just backing off out of fear.
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:32 am
people wanting representation or more minority characters is not a new development.
What's new is these people doing everything in their power to ruin the life of whoever doesn't give them what they want. After that of course they turn around and cry about being victims.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:42 am

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:36 am
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:32 am
people wanting representation or more minority characters is not a new development.
What's new is these people doing everything in their power to ruin the life of whoever doesn't give them what they want. After that of course they turn around and cry about being victims.
i do agree that #cancelled/call out culture can sometimes be stupid, but it's not gonna ruin the life of a big creator or whatever. hell most of the time when people try and do that kinda stuff to big actors or creators or comedians or whatever, it doesn't work too well or it does but only for a bit and then nothing ever really comes of it.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:46 am

Maybe being impolite to people based off of arbitrary characteristics is wrong?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:03 am

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:36 am
I don't mean it lost in a government way but rather society (or rather a vocal minority that don't support what they call for) making such a fuss that companies won't support the creator or the creator just backing off out of fear.
Well... yeah. That's capitalism.

You make a movie that people want to watch, you get rewarded, and studios will back. You DON'T make a movie people want to watch, you suffer for it, and studios WON'T want to work with you.
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:32 am
What's new is these people doing everything in their power to ruin the life of whoever doesn't give them what they want. After that of course they turn around and cry about being victims.
Like, what specific times are you referring to? Like, I'm sure it's happened a few times, but... This is still the same Hollywood that allowed stuff like the Transformers films.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:18 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:03 am
Well... yeah. That's capitalism.

I'm talking about an author losing support or backing away from a project out of fear of what certain groups in society are saying. That's not capitalism, it's fear.

Like, what specific times are you referring to? Like, I'm sure it's happened a few times, but...
It happens all the time. You're always seeing writers, game developers, etc. talking about what they wanted to do but ended up changing it due to pressure from society. A Batgilr artist had a killing joke cover that he or she cancelled because of the amount of backlash it got on Twitter.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:26 am

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:18 am
It happens all the time. You're always seeing writers, game developers, etc. talking about what they wanted to do but ended up changing it due to pressure from society. A Batgilr artist had a killing joke cover that he or she cancelled because of the amount of backlash it got on Twitter.
Then that was their decision as an artist. Nobody made it for them. They chose to appease their audience, rather than follow through on their vision.

That's ALWAYS the tightrope you walk as an entertainer. Following your vision enough that you enjoy your work, but also towing the line enough that your audience keeps paying you to do your thing. That's capitalism.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:18 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:03 am
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:32 am
What's new is these people doing everything in their power to ruin the life of whoever doesn't give them what they want. After that of course they turn around and cry about being victims.
Like, what specific times are you referring to? Like, I'm sure it's happened a few times, but... This is still the same Hollywood that allowed stuff like the Transformers films.
just a heads up you quoted the wrong person here, i didn't say that haha. quoting can be pretty tricky when there's multiple people and you're just trying to respond to one part, so it's understandable lol.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:26 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:18 am
just a heads up you quoted the wrong person here, i didn't say that haha. quoting can be pretty tricky when there's multiple people and you're just trying to respond to one part, so it's understandable lol.
...I really should stop trying to type these out on my phone :lol: ...
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:36 am

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:18 am
Fionordequester wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:03 am
Well... yeah. That's capitalism.

I'm talking about an author losing support or backing away from a project out of fear of what certain groups in society are saying. That's not capitalism, it's fear.

Like, what specific times are you referring to? Like, I'm sure it's happened a few times, but...
It happens all the time. You're always seeing writers, game developers, etc. talking about what they wanted to do but ended up changing it due to pressure from society. A Batgilr artist had a killing joke cover that he or she cancelled because of the amount of backlash it got on Twitter.
It seems to me that all you're doing is complaining about criticism, and making a false distinction between 'PC' criticism and other kinds.

Let's go back to DB for instance. How many times do you hear complaints like the following:

- 'Gohan needs to fight again! I hate how they made him into a nerd who never trains!'

- 'Stop with all of the new powerups and transformations! There are too many and it's just getting ridiculous now!'

- 'Let characters other than Goku and Vegeta shine for once!'

- 'That fight shouldn't have gone like that, the powerscaling is all off!'

- 'This character design is generic and ugly'

- 'Stop retconning the lore, it's like they don't even care about maintaining continuity!'

Such complaints are commonplace, but suddenly when the complaints start being that something is sexist or homophobic, it's 'SJWs ruining mah DB!'

If people have the right to complain about the first type of thing, then why not the second?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:29 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:36 am
1- 'Gohan needs to fight again! I hate how they made him into a nerd who never trains!'

2- 'Stop with all of the new powerups and transformations! There are too many and it's just getting ridiculous now!'

3- 'Let characters other than Goku and Vegeta shine for once!'

4- 'That fight shouldn't have gone like that, the powerscaling is all off!'

5- 'This character design is generic and ugly'

6- 'Stop retconning the lore, it's like they don't even care about maintaining continuity!'

If people have the right to complain about the first type of thing, then why not the second?
1- This shouldn't be an issue as Gohan's development resulted in him not being fit for the current plots.

2- This is valid because most of these "new" forms and powers don't add anything to the story. The reason we have these forms is due to their popularity, so fans just want them to do their own thing instead of constantly giving fans new forms.

3- This also shouldn't be an issue as there isn't anyone in the cast who can realistically catch up to them.

4, 5, & 6 are based on a lack of quality and care in the writing, so they're valid. Consistancy is expected in any form of storytelling, it has nothing to do with giving certain people what they want.

Modern DB is mostly built on giving fans what they want, so if enough people ask, chances are they'll get what they want. The problem is that what you get will feel flat and empty due to it not being done with passion, but rather to simply tick a box on a list.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:47 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:29 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:36 am
1- 'Gohan needs to fight again! I hate how they made him into a nerd who never trains!'

2- 'Stop with all of the new powerups and transformations! There are too many and it's just getting ridiculous now!'

3- 'Let characters other than Goku and Vegeta shine for once!'

4- 'That fight shouldn't have gone like that, the powerscaling is all off!'

5- 'This character design is generic and ugly'

6- 'Stop retconning the lore, it's like they don't even care about maintaining continuity!'

If people have the right to complain about the first type of thing, then why not the second?
1- This shouldn't be an issue as Gohan's development resulted in him not being fit for the current plots.

2- This is valid because most of these "new" forms and powers don't add anything to the story. The reason we have these forms is due to their popularity, so fans just want them to do their own thing instead of constantly giving fans new forms.

3- This also shouldn't be an issue as there isn't anyone in the cast who can realistically catch up to them.

4, 5, & 6 are based on a lack of quality and care in the writing, so they're valid. Consistancy is expected in any form of storytelling, it has nothing to do with giving certain people what they want.

Modern DB is mostly built on giving fans what they want, so if enough people ask, chances are they'll get what they want. The problem is that what you get will feel flat and empty due to it not being done with passion, but rather to simply tick a box on a list.
So you get to decide which complaints are 'valid' or not?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:30 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:47 pm
So you get to decide which complaints are 'valid' or not?
I'm saying the ones that are valid are those related to consistency. If a rule is set up in any story then the reader or viewer is going to expect the story to follow it through.

Let me put it this way, valid complaints are ones the author should take into account and work on fixing, these are mostly consistency issues that directly contradict the story. Other complaints such as characters getting more spotlight or certain types of characters being introduced are OK to talk about, but the author shouldn't take them seriously as I want his vision, not someone else's.

You may see things different and that's fine, but for me, I want the author's vision to be as pure as possible. If I want something from fans I can just read their fan fiction.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:53 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:30 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:47 pm
So you get to decide which complaints are 'valid' or not?
I'm saying the ones that are valid are those related to consistency. If a rule is set up in any story then the reader or viewer is going to expect the story to follow it through.

Let me put it this way, valid complaints are ones the author should take into account and work on fixing, these are mostly consistency issues that directly contradict the story. Other complaints such as characters getting more spotlight or certain types of characters being introduced are OK to talk about, but the author shouldn't take them seriously as I want his vision, not someone else's.

You may see things different and that's fine, but for me, I want the author's vision to be as pure as possible. If I want something from fans I can just read their fan fiction.
If a commercial product is being made and sold for profit, then obviously the consumers have the right to decide what they do and don't want to see in it, and vote on it with their wallets.
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