With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:01 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm
SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm
"Queers fuck off!" Sure is a hill to die on.
The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to prevent the social conditions that lead to that.
Will including more LGBT characters in Dragonball somehow stop that from happening?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SonEric84 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:08 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:01 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm
SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm


The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to prevent the social conditions that lead to that.
Will including more LGBT characters in Dragonball somehow stop that from happening?
Whenever you look into these cases, it's usually not simply because of the person's identity. These are emotionally manipulative tactics used time and again in completely unrelated contexts. Dragon Ball has nothing to do with real world Western issues.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:47 am

SonEric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:08 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:01 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm


Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to prevent the social conditions that lead to that.
Will including more LGBT characters in Dragonball somehow stop that from happening?
Whenever you look into these cases, it's usually not simply because of the person's identity. These are emotionally manipulative tactics used time and again in completely unrelated contexts. Dragon Ball has nothing to do with real world Western issues.
Love your galaxy brain explanation for why people wanting persecuted minorities to be accepted as normal through media inclusion is *checks notes* not based in 'facts and logic'. Here's a fact for you: LGBTQIA+ folks are fighting for their rights in Japan, too. Too bad you're not an honest actor and care for nothing more than masturbating to your own flaccid stabs at trolling.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:01 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm
SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm


The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to prevent the social conditions that lead to that.
Will including more LGBT characters in Dragonball somehow stop that from happening?
It helps. God knows I am sick and tired of seeing us treated as punchlines by cishet characters in western media so I think any help anywhere is a good thing.
Last edited by JulieYBM on Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:49 am

Lmao "western issues". LGBT+ folks exist everywhere in every part of the world. Diversity and inclusivity in media is a discussion that also happens in every part of the world including Japan.
Last edited by Saikyo no Senshi on Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:53 am

Mnich wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:49 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm
SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm


The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to mitigate that.
Why are you so aggressive? You want to live in a perfect world full o peace, that's fine, but you can't force anyone to add LGBT stuff into his work. As someone said it earlier, it's not a mandatory just because you want it to be...
Going to have to direct me to the part where I said I'd shoot somebody if they didn't put LGBTQIA+ folk in my Japanese cartoons.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SaiyamanMS » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:16 am

Queer representation is important for the sake of normalisation within the broader community. At the same time, you can’t just introduce a character and have their single attribute be “gay”.

Honestly, given the handling of heterosexual romance in the series, I wouldn’t expect much even if we were to get queer characters in the series. Literally the only on screen kiss I can think of is #18 pecking Kuririn on the cheek.

Given what we’ve seen on screen, it’s entirely possible that Tenshinhan and Chaozu are totally gay for each other. Or Kale and Caulifla. But given that Dragon Ball is terrible at romance, there’s nothing definite either way as most of the heterosexual relationships are defined by “they have kids now”, which typically doesn’t happen with queer couples.

Even if Toriyama were to say tomorrow that Tenshinhan and Chaozu are gay and always have been intended as such (which is highly unlikely), people are going to deny it until we see it on screen, which we won’t, because Dragon Ball doesn’t do that kind of thing.

Basically, I’m queer as fuck, I love queer representation, but I’m not sure if it could be done in Dragon Ball without being horribly bumbled, incredibly awkward and forced or both.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Shaddy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:47 am

My problem with Ten and Chiaotzu is that even though the guy is pushing 40 in Super, Chiaotzu still looks and talks like a child. After the timeskip from Piccolo -> Jr. you can at least see Krillin visually age in facial structure and physique, but Chiaotzu remains identical. And I don't really think we need a second instance of DB implying gay people are pedophiles, especially when we would inevitably be breaking out the "really 400 years old" defense in retaliation (though that's usually an excuse to sexualize child characters, but I digress).

Caulifla and Kale, Zamasu and Black, and maybe some of the Ribrianne Gang are better examples.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:57 am

When it comes to including LGBT characters in Dragon Ball, I'd be indifferent towards it. I wouldn't mind it, but at the same time, I don't think it's necessary.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:09 am

SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm
"Queers fuck off!" Sure is a hill to die on.
The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
this is like, a worse "I'm fine with gay people i just hate if they ever mention it" or whatever. holy cow.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:58 am

Thanos wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:54 pm
I don’t see how this series, of all things, “caters exclusively to straight cis people”... or to much of anyone for that matter.
Exactly. Dragon Ball is appealing (globally) irrespective of each fan's sexuality or sexual preference. It's simply not something the series dwells on, so much so that we don't know the sexual preferences or orientations of most of its characters. And even if we did, fictional characters don't need to fit every single immutable trait in order to be interesting, appealing or relatable. Dragon Ball or not.

Personally, I find that demands of this sort, allegedly out "inclusion" when nobody is being excluded, always comes off as narcissistic.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am

Thanos wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:54 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:08 pm
So you're saying that Dragon Ball is a franchise that does cater and should cater exclusively to straight cis people?
I don’t think it belongs (necessarily) in Dragon Ball. I don’t see how this series, of all things, “caters exclusively to straight cis people”... or to much of anyone for that matter. It’s a very un-sexy series. It used to be a lot more sexual, but that was 30+ years ago. Relationships in general are rare in the series because Toriyama (by his own admission) sucks at it. There is an abundance of media catering to LGBTQ+ sensibilities, and Dragon Ball happens to not be one of them. Not every single thing has to appeal to all demographics. Furthermore, we cannot expect the East to exactly fall in step with the West in terms of progressive sensibilities.

If we start seeing this kind of thing in Dragon Ball moving forward, awesome! I would personally enjoy seeing something like that. But putting your foot down and expecting it to happen... I wouldn’t hold your breath.
That wasn't my point. I do not in the slightest want characters for the sake of tokenism, nor do I want creators to be "bullied" or "forced" into writing or creating things for the sake of inclusion. As an aside, though, creators are often literally forced or coerced into compromising their creative visions, by editors or networks or what have you. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was forced to add Worf from The Next Generation into their show due to struggling ratings. Dragon Ball's Cell Arc is full of midstream changes that did not come from Toriyama. I'm not necessarily defending that, but compromise is part and parcel with the job.

Anyway, what I was taking issue with was what Block's wording was inferring. And the responses, particularly this one:
Luso Saiyan wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:58 am
Thanos wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:54 pm
I don’t see how this series, of all things, “caters exclusively to straight cis people”... or to much of anyone for that matter.
Exactly. Dragon Ball is appealing (globally) irrespective of each fan's sexuality or sexual preference. It's simply not something the series dwells on, so much so that we don't know the sexual preferences or orientations of most of its characters. And even if we did, fictional characters don't need to fit every single immutable trait in order to be interesting, appealing or relatable. Dragon Ball or not.

Personally, I find that demands of this sort, allegedly out "inclusion" when nobody is being excluded, always comes off as narcissistic.
...highlight the issue. Block stated including LGBT+ characters would be "catering to them," and that they can find "their own show." By extension, that basically says that Dragon Ball is for straight cis people, that it is their own show, and that it is catering to them. Whether he intended that or not, it shows the bias that straight cis is normal and its rampant inclusion is something they don't consider intrusive or even notice. I've seen comments (I can't recall if it was in this thread or the last LGBT-focused thread) that explicitly claimed that gay people, women, etc., just can't fit into a series about fighting. And really? We don't know the sexual preferences or orientations of most of Dragon Ball's characters? Are you kidding me? I know Yamcha's. I know Blooma's, Kuririn's, Vegeta's, #18's, Lunch's, Muten Roshi's, Old Kaioshin's, Son Gohan's, Son Gohan's, Videl's, Mr. Satan's, Chichi's, Son Goten's, Trunks's, Pan's, and I could very easily continue, but I think you get the point. Dragon Ball does not dwell on romance or sexuality, and yet there are so many characters whose sexuality we very, very, very obviously know. And yet, because the heterosexual experience is so normalized, you don't even think about it. But you can't imagine a gay character possibly existing without it being shoved in your face. That's my issue with that statement. I have no interest in Dragon Ball becoming a queer soapbox. But I do find this hypocritical myopia very problematic. "Wouldn't it be nice if there were more gay people in media?" "Nobody's being excluded. You're being narcissistic for wanting fictional characters to be like you. Now if you'll excuse me, I'd like to get back to watching all these characters that are like me."

I just think this is being looked at through far too extreme lenses. There is quite a bit of middle ground between "Let's turn Dragon Ball into queer erotica" and "Gay people existing can't fit into Dragon Ball." I can certainly see fear of the former inspiring pushback and seeming like entitlement because that is quite a stretch. But fear of the latter when Dragon Ball very much does wear sexuality on its sleeve a lot of the times shows either a lack of awareness of one's own heterocentric experience or is covering up their own discomfort with the subject in general.

Do I want Dragon Ball to be "forced" to have queer characters? No. Do I think it's the best vehicle to promote those issues? No. Would I even be bothered if it was an issue that was not addressed in the future? Not really. I mean, hell, I want Dragon Ball to end anyway, so I don't want there to be any new characters, gay or otherwise. The only thing I take issue with is this pervasive idea that it's simply impossible to do without turning the series into romance or awkwardly expositing or "catering." That's just ridiculous and shows a strong bias or simple lack of imagination.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:14 am

Just to reiterate: the bare minimum I was asking for is taking Kale and Caulifla a step further and having the ambiguity dropped. A fun victory kiss and snuggle. Boom. Done. No more or less than Gokuu and Chi-Chi.

Now, if y'all don't mind I'm going to get back to fantasizing about a nice boy marrying me so I can quit my job.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:15 am

Your point is well taken. I think it would be great to add more gay characters but lets make it in a way that's in keeping with DB. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the writers and producers or Toriyama know how to do it. It's not even tokenism I'm worried about, though.
No more or less than Gokuu and Chi-Chi.
Have they actually kissed? As others have pointed out, the most physical intimacy we've seen is a kiss on the cheek from 18.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am

I was thinking maybe a scene like a female character (a villain?) trying to seduce Whis, but he just says 'sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree' and then proceeds to kick her ass.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:28 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am
Block stated including LGBT+ characters would be "catering to them," and that they can find "their own show." By extension, that basically says that Dragon Ball is for straight cis people, that it is their own show, and that it is catering to them.
I never agreed with that assertion nor was that what I quoted.
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am
And really? We don't know the sexual preferences or orientations of most of Dragon Ball's characters? Are you kidding me? I know Yamcha's. I know Blooma's, Kuririn's, Vegeta's, #18's, Lunch's, Muten Roshi's, Old Kaioshin's, Son Gohan's, Son Gohan's, Videl's, Mr. Satan's, Chichi's, Son Goten's, Trunks's, Pan's, and I could very easily continue, but I think you get the point.
Those aren't most of Dragon Ball characters. But even if we knew most of the major characters, and even if they were all the same, my point still stands.
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am
Dragon Ball does not dwell on romance or sexuality, and yet there are so many characters whose sexuality we very, very, very obviously know. And yet, because the heterosexual experience is so normalized, you don't even think about it. But you can't imagine a gay character possibly existing without it being shoved in your face. That's my issue with that statement.
A statement that's not mine nor do I agree with. Showing something is not necessarily catering. That Dragon Ball happens to show heterosexual relationships in no way says anything about other types of relationships nor does it prevent anyone from understanding what's going on.

My argument was regarding the OP's premiss that because Dragon Ball is globally appealing, therefore it needs more characters with a specific trait (in this case, certain sexual preferences/orientations) for the purposes of "inclusion". My point is that there is no problem with inclusion to begin with (hence the global appeal to a variety of fans with a variety of traits), and demanding a need to include characters with trait X, Y Z comes off as superficial and narcissistic, irrespective of what those traits are.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:30 am

Writing this stuff isn't that hard, folks. You waste too much time beating around the bush for the sake of appearing like 'high-art' when all you need to do is be direct.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SonEric84 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:45 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:47 am
SonEric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:08 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:01 am


Will including more LGBT characters in Dragonball somehow stop that from happening?
Whenever you look into these cases, it's usually not simply because of the person's identity. These are emotionally manipulative tactics used time and again in completely unrelated contexts. Dragon Ball has nothing to do with real world Western issues.
Love your galaxy brain explanation for why people wanting persecuted minorities to be accepted as normal through media inclusion is *checks notes* not based in 'facts and logic'. Here's a fact for you: LGBTQIA+ folks are fighting for their rights in Japan, too. Too bad you're not an honest actor and care for nothing more than masturbating to your own flaccid stabs at trolling.
Too bad you're still not entitled to authors inserting agendas on your behalf into their works. This just in, abnormal isn't normal. :lol:
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:49 am
Lmao "western issues". LGBT+ folks exist everywhere in every part of the world. Diversity and inclusivity in media is a discussion that also happens in every part of the world including Japan.
"Diversity and inclusion" are Western ideological buzzwords for people who believe everything revolves around them. "Representation" is for narcissists who look to fantasy for validation. AKA it's for losers with no self-esteem. :lol:
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:50 am

lmao wow, that above post, is a lot of homophobia.
Luso Saiyan wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:28 am
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am
And really? We don't know the sexual preferences or orientations of most of Dragon Ball's characters? Are you kidding me? I know Yamcha's. I know Blooma's, Kuririn's, Vegeta's, #18's, Lunch's, Muten Roshi's, Old Kaioshin's, Son Gohan's, Son Gohan's, Videl's, Mr. Satan's, Chichi's, Son Goten's, Trunks's, Pan's, and I could very easily continue, but I think you get the point.
Those aren't most of Dragon Ball characters. But even if we knew most of the major characters, and even if they were all the same, my point still stands.
most of those characters have been main characters at some point in the series though ? like yeah not every characters sexuality is known, but of the main cast ? it's really not a secret for most of them.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SonEric84 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:59 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:50 am
lmao wow, that is a lot of homophobia.
Oh hey, more buzzwords that have no meaning other than someone doesn't blindly agree with the rainbow mafia. :clap:
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:02 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am
Block stated including LGBT+ characters would be "catering to them," and that they can find "their own show." By extension, that basically says that Dragon Ball is for straight cis people, that it is their own show, and that it is catering to them.
The point was about any fan demand. Super's introduction of Kale and Canonizing Broly was them catering to that group of fans, which I and many believe was a mistake. Toriyama was originally going to have Goku and Vegeta work together in order to beat Fused Zamasu, but changed it to them fusing based on Toyotaro saying fans would like that instead. That mindset of catering to fans may have denied us great character development for Goku and Vegeta. As much as I like Vegetto, Toriyama should've simply pointed out that if fans like him so much, they could go back and watch his fight against Super Buu. The same goes for Broly. This doesn't mean DB isn't for Broly and Vegetto fans, it's just that we want the author's vision to be as unbiased and pure as possible.
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