With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:21 am

sintzu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:02 am
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am
Block stated including LGBT+ characters would be "catering to them," and that they can find "their own show." By extension, that basically says that Dragon Ball is for straight cis people, that it is their own show, and that it is catering to them.
The point was about any fan demand. Super's introduction of Kale and Canonizing Broly was them catering to that group of fans, which I and many believe was a mistake. Toriyama was originally going to have Goku and Vegeta work together in order to beat Fused Zamasu, but changed it to them fusing based on Toyotaro saying fans would like that instead. That mindset of catering to fans may have denied us great character development for Goku and Vegeta. As much as I like Vegetto, Toriyama should've simply pointed out that if fans like him so much, they could go back and watch his fight against Super Buu. The same goes for Broly. This doesn't mean DB isn't for Broly and Vegetto fans, it's just that we want the author's vision to be as unbiased and pure as possible.
I don't care one way or another about fan "demand." People are allowed to express their opinions as much as they want. They don't make the decisions. I agree with you that doling out fan service is a stupid and futile task, and I agree that it's a large part of what has made Dragon Ball Super such a bore. But it's the creative forces who decided to do it. That's on them, not the fans. If Toriyama wants to start pandering to the whims of the masses, you could argue that has become his vision because he decided to do it. And he's the one to whom you should be directing your criticisms. He's certainly where I direct mine. As far as I know, no one is "forcing" Toriyama to pull out a rehash of Dragon Ball's greatest hits.

Also, while I don't like the creativity of an author to be curtailed, I also kind of cringe at the "creator's true vision" type of mentality. That tends to be how you end up with garbage like the Star Wars prequels and, well, Dragon Ball Super. A lot of times creativity does need to be on a leash. It needs constructive, honest criticism because nobody's ideas are perfect out of the box, nobody's a perfect self-editor, and if you go to long without anyone challenging you, you do start to believe that that means your ideas must be good. And creators who have become super popular and successful and have enough clout that no one looks over their shoulder anymore very easily fall into that trap. A creator ultimately has to have the good judgment to figure out which criticism to listen to and which to ignore.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:27 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:21 am
A lot of times creativity does need to be on a leash. It needs constructive, honest criticism because nobody's ideas are perfect out of the box, nobody's a perfect self-editor, and if you go to long without anyone challenging you, you do start to believe that that means your ideas must be good. And creators who have become super popular and successful and have enough clout that no one looks over their shoulder anymore very easily fall into that trap. A creator ultimately has to have the good judgment to figure out which criticism to listen to and which to ignore.
I agree with this, but it can't be from anyone. For Toriyama, during the manga's run it was his editor who always pushed him further. I do believe that Toriyama needs someone like Torishima again, someone who can stand up and tell him his ideas aren't good enough and need more work. Then again, it was Torishima who said RF was a good movie so who knows, maybe Toriyama is too popular at this point for anyone to say no to his ideas.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:33 am

SonEric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:45 am
Too bad you're still not entitled to authors inserting agendas on your behalf into their works. This just in, abnormal isn't normal. :lol:

Lmao "western issues". LGBT+ folks exist everywhere in every part of the world. Diversity and inclusivity in media is a discussion that also happens in every part of the world including Japan.

"Diversity and inclusion" are Western ideological buzzwords for people who believe everything revolves around them. "Representation" is for narcissists who look to fantasy for validation. AKA it's for losers with no self-esteem. :lol:
Well, hmm, let me see here...
SonEric84 wrote:You can find terrible people within any group or movement, so labeling the entirety of a group of people as bad for the awful behaviors of some is almost never a good idea. In fact, it's mindsets like that which lead to bigotry and hatred. Sometimes people get so caught up in these "battles" that they end up becoming no better than the people they're speaking out against. Discuss things in a civil manner...
You sure fell into that ditch and twisted your ankle, didn't you?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SonEric84 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:38 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:33 am
SonEric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:45 am
Too bad you're still not entitled to authors inserting agendas on your behalf into their works. This just in, abnormal isn't normal. :lol:

Lmao "western issues". LGBT+ folks exist everywhere in every part of the world. Diversity and inclusivity in media is a discussion that also happens in every part of the world including Japan.

"Diversity and inclusion" are Western ideological buzzwords for people who believe everything revolves around them. "Representation" is for narcissists who look to fantasy for validation. AKA it's for losers with no self-esteem. :lol:
Well, hmm, let me see here...
SonEric84 wrote:You can find terrible people within any group or movement, so labeling the entirety of a group of people as bad for the awful behaviors of some is almost never a good idea. In fact, it's mindsets like that which lead to bigotry and hatred. Sometimes people get so caught up in these "battles" that they end up becoming no better than the people they're speaking out against. Discuss things in a civil manner...
You sure fell into that ditch and twisted your ankle, didn't you?

No, that fits the rainbow mafia quite well. If you can't differentiate between ideologues and individuals who happen to be something other than straight, that says more about them than anyone else.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:50 am

SonEric84 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:38 am
No, that fits the rainbow mafia quite well. If you can't differentiate between ideologues and individuals who happen to be something other than straight, that says more about them than anyone else.
I'm fairly sure you cottoned on but are just choosing not to acknowledge it, but just in case you somehow missed it, let me spell this out for you:

1. You are discussing things in a less civil manner than anyone else in this thread
2. You are expressing clear bigotry and hated

and as such,

3. You are most certainly behaving no better than the people you're speaking out against.

So, yeah, you have definitely become what three-years-ago you seemed to be speaking out against.

EDIT: Oh. Looks like you're banned now. I guess that proves my point too as the end of the post of yours I was quoting said that people who behaved like that would get banned anyway.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:01 pm

I love being a member of the LGBTQIA+ family. It's a lot of fun and really helps you learn about the true recessess of yourself and humanity.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Shaddy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:18 pm

Okay, changing his icon to the pride flag after banning him is pretty fucking incredible. Kudos to whichever mod that was.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:52 pm

OMG Best Moderation Team EVER!
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:01 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:18 pm
Okay, changing his icon to the pride flag after banning him is pretty fucking incredible. Kudos to whichever mod that was.
I might be wrong but I recall seeing his icon like that before he was banned, so I thought he did it to be ironic or something.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:05 pm

yeah that was his av and signature prior too being banned, in a attempt too troll or whatever.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:52 pm

Damn such a long time member getting ban hammered... just wow. Looks like they got what was coming to them based on the exchanges above and on the last page of the thread. I'm guessing it was most likely VegettoEX or one of the other admins but they didn't feel like doing the usual thing of calling out the particular user first in a response this time as i've seen previously. In any case, good on whichever of them it was for upholding the site's moderation and not letting such crap slide. :thumbup:
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:11 pm

More often than not commercial forces have to be forced to include minorities in their works. Things have only improved slightly in recent times for gay and lesbian representation but I know there's still a big for exploring the culture of the bisexual, pansexual and transgender communities in work. If people like use aren't shown as being casual in media--especially media aimed at children--it can let other influences cause harm. As someone whose very life depends on the Zoomers and beyond being compassionate and progressive I have a personal stake in this and I will vigorously defend that stake because I've already lost too much of my life to the bigotry we want media to fight against.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:35 pm

bi, transmen, and non binary representation is still a really big issue within the queer community. especially with transmen, it's like the only instance where you can say "what about the men" and not sound like MRA.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:00 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:35 pm
bi, transmen, and non binary representation is still a really big issue within the queer community. especially with transmen, it's like the only instance where you can say "what about the men" and not sound like MRA.
Yeah, definitely. They have it so bad. I am the only trans girl I have known to work at my work place sense I came out but have had a trans man co-worker stuck in the closet because his dad is so bigoted and he's still reliant upon him. What sucks about trans men is that they can be so very easily often denied that they even exist, being seen only as their assigned at birth gender by bigots. I guess the same is true of AMABs such as myself but in this case it really is a man being told that they're little girls. It's so fucking terrible and really goes to show how little resources and exposure we have.

Bisexuals either get shamed for being 'posers' within the community or have people say that they don't exist or can't be in het relationships. Ugh.

I have had two non-binary co-workers and it really bothers me that they don't get representation because until a year ago I didn't even know they existed. Queer folk are so othered by media that one can literally go without knowing that there have always been more than two genders. US media is fucking archaic.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:25 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:00 pm
Bisexuals either get shamed for being 'posers' within the community or have people say that they don't exist or can't be in het relationships. Ugh.
I've never understood that mindset, even as a straight man looking at the situation from the outside. What on Earth would possess other non-straight people to want to treat a fellow LGBTQIA+ person like shit is something I can't begin to process, given how much crap they've most likely had to deal with themselves. It just boggles my mind.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:07 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:25 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:00 pm
Bisexuals either get shamed for being 'posers' within the community or have people say that they don't exist or can't be in het relationships. Ugh.
I've never understood that mindset, even as a straight man looking at the situation from the outside. What on Earth would possess other non-straight people to want to treat a fellow LGBTQIA+ person like shit is something I can't begin to process, given how much crap they've most likely had to deal with themselves. It just boggles my mind.
It's weird. In the trans community we face similar issues with 'truscum' deciding whether or not someone is worth it if we 'pass' or not or if we're too masculine or feminine still. ContraPoints explains the ideas really well in this new video. I suggest watching it. :) I think that 'truscum' are operating from the point of view that they're 'defending' themselves from cishets who would harm them based on those not like them.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:06 am

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:25 pm
I've never understood that mindset, even as a straight man looking at the situation from the outside. What on Earth would possess other non-straight people to want to treat a fellow LGBTQIA+ person like shit is something I can't begin to process, given how much crap they've most likely had to deal with themselves. It just boggles my mind.
It's called "one-ups-men-ship". The idea is that since the stuff you went through was so much worse than what the other person went through, they have no right to complain.

The challenge here, of course, is for people to realize that just because others' problems aren't AS big as theirs, that doesn't mean they aren't still worth taking seriously.

The person who needs stitches shouldn't think too badly of the person who needs band-aids, in other words.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:58 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:06 am
Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:25 pm
I've never understood that mindset, even as a straight man looking at the situation from the outside. What on Earth would possess other non-straight people to want to treat a fellow LGBTQIA+ person like shit is something I can't begin to process, given how much crap they've most likely had to deal with themselves. It just boggles my mind.
It's called "one-ups-men-ship". The idea is that since the stuff you went through was so much worse than what the other person went through, they have no right to complain.

The challenge here, of course, is for people to realize that just because others' problems aren't AS big as theirs, that doesn't mean they aren't still worth taking seriously.

The person who needs stitches shouldn't think too badly of the person who needs band-aids, in other words.
yeah that stuff plays a huge part in truscum stuff that julie mentioned. the idea that, well i have too deal with dysphoria and transitioning is the best way for me too deal with it, and someone who doesn't have too deal with that stuff is also transitioning so that makes them not trans. it's a really stupid and dangerous mindset, in a community that has too deal with so much crap, why add too it with that kinda stuff.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:38 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:07 pm
It's weird. In the trans community we face similar issues with 'truscum' deciding whether or not someone is worth it if we 'pass' or not or if we're too masculine or feminine still. ContraPoints explains the ideas really well in this new video. I suggest watching it. :) I think that 'truscum' are operating from the point of view that they're 'defending' themselves from cishets who would harm them based on those not like them.
Much obliged, I'll definitely check that video out. :thumbup: Growing up and living in a small-ass town in Arkansas, it can be hard to keep up with the changing social norms of the world, particularly in regards to proper terminology, but I do my best to try to keep learning. At the end of the day, my view point is basically that people need to just let others live their own lives however the heck they want to so long as said life choices aren't interfering with others ability to do the same (and almost 100% of the time, they absolutely are not).

Thanks to Fionordequester and Soppa Saia People for the further explanations as well. I figured it had to be something like that, but it still boggles my mind how people could end up in that sort of mindset.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:36 pm

This topic reminds me of a VRV blog editorial called "How Dragon Ball Super Solves the Sissy Villain" problem. It examines Black/Zamasu and Whis as contrasting examples of queer-coded characters.

The point it makes is that while Zamasu doesn't start out as a stereotypical "gay villain", the direction the show takes with him, and especially once you learn the full connection between him, Goku and Black, goes to some uncomfortable places, with creepy self-loving hugs and homoerotic torso stabbing. But on the other hand, you have Whis, who is incredibly camp, gay-coded (blushing at a naked Beerus in the bath at one point) but also wise, affable and competent. If you had to pick the "least flawed" character in Dragon Ball, you could make a very good case for it being him.

It's an interesting little read. One thing you could take away from it is the series is getting better at queer characters (I don't fully agree with the authour's take on Zamasu, but I'm also not gay, so I won't pretend to know better) but still has a long way to go. I feel like the general aversion to even heterosexual romance in Dragon Ball means characters like Whis, and also Kale are the best we can hope for: queer, not in an explicit romantic relationship, but portrayed positively.

I also think the depiction of Universe 2 is an interesting case study in this. The central angle that they're a universe obsessed with love and beauty, but the signature maidens are all weird-looking by our standards feels like it should be an offensive joke. But the show so fully commits to the idea that it ends up feeling sincere. And who else but Whis should correct Krillin when he argues they looked better before transforming: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." And then in their final episode, where the three remaining male fighters (who look like tough blokes, but are considered lesser in their universe for being "ugly") get their big transformation that turns them into copies of the maidens, it's all played completely straight. You have the big muscled fighter who looks like Thanos suddenly wearing Ribrianne's pink teletubby outfit doing butt-stomps and it's treated like a noble last-ditch powerup.

I don't know, I really liked that scene and the direction they went with it. It felt weirdly forward-thinking for Dragon Ball. I'd be interested if there was more discussion around that from Universe 2 and less "lol Ribrianne sux".

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