With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:25 pm

The younger staff with more wide-ranging tastes definitely have an effect on the characters being more queer and gender and sex non-conforming. It also helps that there us a genuine fandom for queer characters and themes. Otaku are by nature queer, even if their relationships with 3D partners are heteronormative. The large pool of lesbian, gay, bi, trans, pan, intersex, and asexuals can also contribute to the common tropes of animation, comics, games and novels.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Nightbane » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:31 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:21 am
sintzu wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:02 am
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am
Block stated including LGBT+ characters would be "catering to them," and that they can find "their own show." By extension, that basically says that Dragon Ball is for straight cis people, that it is their own show, and that it is catering to them.
The point was about any fan demand. Super's introduction of Kale and Canonizing Broly was them catering to that group of fans, which I and many believe was a mistake. Toriyama was originally going to have Goku and Vegeta work together in order to beat Fused Zamasu, but changed it to them fusing based on Toyotaro saying fans would like that instead. That mindset of catering to fans may have denied us great character development for Goku and Vegeta. As much as I like Vegetto, Toriyama should've simply pointed out that if fans like him so much, they could go back and watch his fight against Super Buu. The same goes for Broly. This doesn't mean DB isn't for Broly and Vegetto fans, it's just that we want the author's vision to be as unbiased and pure as possible.
I don't care one way or another about fan "demand." People are allowed to express their opinions as much as they want. They don't make the decisions. I agree with you that doling out fan service is a stupid and futile task, and I agree that it's a large part of what has made Dragon Ball Super such a bore. But it's the creative forces who decided to do it. That's on them, not the fans. If Toriyama wants to start pandering to the whims of the masses, you could argue that has become his vision because he decided to do it. And he's the one to whom you should be directing your criticisms. He's certainly where I direct mine. As far as I know, no one is "forcing" Toriyama to pull out a rehash of Dragon Ball's greatest hits.

Also, while I don't like the creativity of an author to be curtailed, I also kind of cringe at the "creator's true vision" type of mentality. That tends to be how you end up with garbage like the Star Wars prequels and, well, Dragon Ball Super. A lot of times creativity does need to be on a leash. It needs constructive, honest criticism because nobody's ideas are perfect out of the box, nobody's a perfect self-editor, and if you go to long without anyone challenging you, you do start to believe that that means your ideas must be good. And creators who have become super popular and successful and have enough clout that no one looks over their shoulder anymore very easily fall into that trap. A creator ultimately has to have the good judgment to figure out which criticism to listen to and which to ignore.
Please stop calling Super trash, Dragon Ball Super is objectively better than Z. It has better character development, better animation overall, best music, and the best fights. The only series that beats it is the original Dragon Ball. And yes I am being 100% serious, Dragon Ball Super is better than Z by a LARGE margin. I wish people would take off their nostalgia glasses and see the truth for what it is.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:50 pm

Nightbane wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:31 pm
Please stop calling Super trash, Dragon Ball Super is objectively better than Z. It has better character development, better animation overall, best music, and the best fights. The only series that beats it is the original Dragon Ball. And yes I am being 100% serious, Dragon Ball Super is better than Z by a LARGE margin. I wish people would take off their nostalgia glasses and see the truth for what it is.
Your evaluation is the very opposite of objective.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:00 pm

Oh lookie, a new member!

...2017... huh.

Oh well, its nice to have more voices here at Kanzenshuu.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:14 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:25 pm
The younger staff with more wide-ranging tastes definitely have an effect on the characters being more queer and gender and sex non-conforming. It also helps that there us a genuine fandom for queer characters and themes. Otaku are by nature queer, even if their relationships with 3D partners are heteronormative. The large pool of lesbian, gay, bi, trans, pan, intersex, and asexuals can also contribute to the common tropes of animation, comics, games and novels.
Queer by nature how? I want to think I have an idea, but I wouldn't presume.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:38 pm

Nightbane wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:31 pm
Please stop calling Super trash, Dragon Ball Super is objectively better than Z. It has better character development, better animation overall, best music, and the best fights. The only series that beats it is the original Dragon Ball. And yes I am being 100% serious, Dragon Ball Super is better than Z by a LARGE margin. I wish people would take off their nostalgia glasses and see the truth for what it is.
Well, I appreciate you saying "please," but I'm afraid I will not comply. This is a forum, and I am entitled to speak my mind on Dragon Ball the same as anybody else is. My opinion of Super or anything else Dragon Ball should have no detrimental impact to you. And since, at the very least, I don't agree that it has the best animation, best music, or best fights, and I bet many other people would say the same, I think it's more than fair to call that assessment subjective. There's no other way it could be anything but.

As an aside, I find the timing of this very amusing. On one hand, I have a YouTube comment complaining about how supposedly negative I am towards classic Dragon Ball in my videos. And on this hand, you're claiming I'm wearing "nostalgia goggles" for the same material. People see what they want to see, I guess...
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:14 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:25 pm
The younger staff with more wide-ranging tastes definitely have an effect on the characters being more queer and gender and sex non-conforming. It also helps that there us a genuine fandom for queer characters and themes. Otaku are by nature queer, even if their relationships with 3D partners are heteronormative. The large pool of lesbian, gay, bi, trans, pan, intersex, and asexuals can also contribute to the common tropes of animation, comics, games and novels.
Queer by nature how? I want to think I have an idea, but I wouldn't presume.
Marrying 2D characters and having relationships with them is certainly not heterosexual. The relationship dynamic is entirely different and far from 'heteronormative'. Otaku are attracted to fiction and their ability to add to it. Even before I was aware that I was pansexual I toyed with the idea that I was queer because of my attraction to fictional contexts and characters. Of course, now I'm aware that I'm a woman so it becomes difficult to tell whether or not my feelings are based in one aspect off my queerness--an attraction to fictional characters--or that fact that I am an envious little girl. :lol:

And, again, Otaku are perfectly happy to marry their favorite characters to express their sexuality. That just doesn't scream heterosexual to me.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:40 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:14 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:25 pm
The younger staff with more wide-ranging tastes definitely have an effect on the characters being more queer and gender and sex non-conforming. It also helps that there us a genuine fandom for queer characters and themes. Otaku are by nature queer, even if their relationships with 3D partners are heteronormative. The large pool of lesbian, gay, bi, trans, pan, intersex, and asexuals can also contribute to the common tropes of animation, comics, games and novels.
Queer by nature how? I want to think I have an idea, but I wouldn't presume.
Marrying 2D characters and having relationships with them is certainly not heterosexual. The relationship dynamic is entirely different and far from 'heteronormative'. Otaku are attracted to fiction and their ability to add to it. Even before I was aware that I was pansexual I toyed with the idea that I was queer because of my attraction to fictional contexts and characters. Of course, now I'm aware that I'm a woman so it becomes difficult to tell whether or not my feelings are based in one aspect off my queerness--an attraction to fictional characters--or that fact that I am an envious little girl. :lol:

And, again, Otaku are perfectly happy to marry their favorite characters to express their sexuality. That just doesn't scream heterosexual to me.
I'd call it masturbatory.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:21 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm
Marrying 2D characters and having relationships with them is certainly not heterosexual.
How do you figure?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:41 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:21 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm
Marrying 2D characters and having relationships with them is certainly not heterosexual.
How do you figure?
Anyone who believes that they are 'married' to a fictional character either needs mental help, or is just sad.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:44 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:41 am
ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:21 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm
Marrying 2D characters and having relationships with them is certainly not heterosexual.
How do you figure?
Anyone who believes that they are 'married' to a fictional character either needs mental help, or is just sad.
Forgive me for being ignorant, but I don't know what you mean by "marrying 2D" characters. What I'm inferring is shipping two cartoon characters. What I'm reading from you is people believing they've tied the knot with a cartoon character.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by omegacwa » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:41 am
ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:21 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm
Marrying 2D characters and having relationships with them is certainly not heterosexual.
How do you figure?
Anyone who believes that they are 'married' to a fictional character either needs mental help, or is just sad.
Was that what they meant? Much like ABED I thought they just meant shipping, which isn't inherently queer. Also finding a fictional character, whether in a movie or animation, attractive is not inherently queer either. A lot of comic/anime characters are designed to be sexually attractive, whether it's muscular square jawed men or voluptuous women. There is nothing specifically queer about finding them attractive. They are designed with that in mind.
The only reason I bring that up is because it seemed like Julie was implying that if you find a fictional character attractive you are inherently queer, which I wouldn't say is accurate at all.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:54 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:25 pm
The younger staff with more wide-ranging tastes definitely have an effect on the characters being more queer and gender and sex non-conforming. It also helps that there us a genuine fandom for queer characters and themes. Otaku are by nature queer, even if their relationships with 3D partners are heteronormative. The large pool of lesbian, gay, bi, trans, pan, intersex, and asexuals can also contribute to the common tropes of animation, comics, games and novels.
you seriously need to consult lol

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:22 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:41 am
ABED wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:21 am
How do you figure?
Anyone who believes that they are 'married' to a fictional character either needs mental help, or is just sad.
Was that what they meant? Much like ABED I thought they just meant shipping, which isn't inherently queer. Also finding a fictional character, whether in a movie or animation, attractive is not inherently queer either. A lot of comic/anime characters are designed to be sexually attractive, whether it's muscular square jawed men or voluptuous women. There is nothing specifically queer about finding them attractive. They are designed with that in mind.
The only reason I bring that up is because it seemed like Julie was implying that if you find a fictional character attractive you are inherently queer, which I wouldn't say is accurate at all.
I'm talking about delusional people who literally think that they (as in, their real life selves) are married to fictional characters.

It's surprisingly common.

I wouldn't call it 'queer' either (unless you mean in the old sense of the word, which meant 'weird').

I don't think it's healthy behavior.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Shaddy » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:16 pm

You can get on any subject you want with gender, sex, social constructs and such, but "social" is still the common theme linking all of them. Projecting something like love and marriage onto fictionalized representations of ideal sexual or romantic partners in lieu of an actual person is one way of cutting one's self off from society, and is really just a padlock on a bubble between that person and connections with other people, the way I view it. You can look, talk, eat, dress, express your gender or sexuality or religion or whatever however you want, you're still a person. Cartoons will never be people and people will never be cartoons short of us actually engineering fucking kernelsprites, I cannot say that a so-called otaku holding relationships with anime characters instead of real people is anything but damaging. It's kind of inherently anti-social and can lead to some weird and possibly unsafe developments.

Also, this conversation has kind of gone off-track. It seems to me like the common conclusion of LGBT + Dragon Ball is "sure, but they have to do it right", and probably "they" should not be Toriyama, a sentiment I echo because god damn I do not trust the 64 year-old man who made Lady Red to try and handle LGBT issues.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Fionordequester » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:30 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:16 pm
Also, this conversation has kind of gone off-track. It seems to me like the common conclusion of LGBT + Dragon Ball is "sure, but they have to do it right", and probably "they" should not be Toriyama, a sentiment I echo because god damn I do not trust the 64 year-old man who made Lady Red to try and handle LGBT issues.
My thoughts, exactly.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:53 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:30 pm
Shaddy wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:16 pm
Also, this conversation has kind of gone off-track. It seems to me like the common conclusion of LGBT + Dragon Ball is "sure, but they have to do it right", and probably "they" should not be Toriyama, a sentiment I echo because god damn I do not trust the 64 year-old man who made Lady Red to try and handle LGBT issues.
My thoughts, exactly.
Thirded.

If General Blue is any indication of the kind of tact that Toriyama has with regards to writing a character of an LBGT background, he is the last person who should handle that kind of area.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Jord » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:13 pm

It would also be great if the next Xenoverse allowed us to create a genderless character!

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:25 pm

Jord wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:13 pm
It would also be great if the next Xenoverse allowed us to create a genderless character!
yeah honestly one of my biggest issues with xenoverse 2 is just how limited it is with character customization and fashion. i really don't get why there's so many gender exclusive outfits.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:28 pm

Jord wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:13 pm
It would also be great if the next Xenoverse allowed us to create a genderless character!
There is no such thing. You are either a Male or female.
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