With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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sintzu
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:57 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:53 pm
If a commercial product is being made and sold for profit, then obviously the consumers have the right to decide what they do and don't want to see in it, and vote on it with their wallets.
Of course you can ask for things, I just think it is a massive mistake for creators to listen. There is a sports saying that if a coach listens to the fans, he will be sitting next to them next week.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Fizzer » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:51 am

PhoenixEX wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:58 pm
I think that if Tien showed up one day at a party or something with a boyfriend that'd be alright, but an entire episode or arc dedicated towards exploring Tien's sexuality wouldn't make sense in Dragon Ball.
Tien: Hey guys, this is my husband, X.
Goku: Wow Tien, so you're a wife now?
Yamcha: *bursts into laughter*
Tien: um no, I'm his husband too
Goku: *cheerful* oh okay. *cheeky* So X, are you strong?
Yamcha: hey, congratulations man! *shoulder pat*
Bulma: I knew it
18: Yup.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:30 am

sintzu wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:57 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:53 pm
If a commercial product is being made and sold for profit, then obviously the consumers have the right to decide what they do and don't want to see in it, and vote on it with their wallets.
Of course you can ask for things, I just think it is a massive mistake for creators to listen. There is a sports saying that if a coach listens to the fans, he will be sitting next to them next week.
So just don't deliver what people want, causing people to stop buying your product. Great idea .
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:49 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:30 am
So just don't deliver what people want, causing people to stop buying your product. Great idea .
People won't stop buying the product for following it's own vision. They like it for what it is, it won't repel anyone already invested.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:25 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:30 am
So just don't deliver what people want, causing people to stop buying your product. Great idea .

If you can't buy something that isn't exactly what you want, it doesn't mean everyone else will do the same thing. Toriyama went as far as to say he did exactly that all the time during the manga's original run.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:33 am

I don't understand how this thread is even a question. Should more LGBTQIA+ folks be included? Yeah. They're a nirmal part of life and implying that only cishet people are normal is bonkers.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by superfan2024 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:56 am

No, just no. Nothing needs to be forced into the story if they don't want it. Adding LGBTQ characters is not a priority nor is it mandatory.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:16 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:33 am
I don't understand how this thread is even a question. Should more LGBTQIA+ folks be included? Yeah.
This isn't what we're talking about. The question is whether or not an author should give in to fan demands, and to that I say no. If you're writing a story, I want to read your story, not the story of someone else being told through you. A major issue I have with modern DB is that most of the time it's just giving fans what they want instead of doing its own thing. If I want to read a fanfiction about Freeza, Broly or Trunks coming back, I'll read a fanfiction about that. One of the reasons these stories feel underwhelming is because they're not being written with passion, they're just boxes that need to be ticked off.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by omegacwa » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:40 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:33 am
I don't understand how this thread is even a question. Should more LGBTQIA+ folks be included? Yeah. They're a nirmal part of life and implying that only cishet people are normal is bonkers.
I don't think that's what people are implying. What is being discussed is adding such characters just for the sake of being inclusive, which is not fair to the author.

Consider this, you are an author of a massively popular book series and a vocal group tells you repeatedly that you must include a transgender character in your next book because otherwise you are alienating your fan base and/or discriminating.

Is that fair to you as the author? Should you change your vision of your story to fit the narrative of a small vocal minority?

What if you, with all the best intentions, still end up writing the character "offensively" even if that was in no way your intention? Then you will receive even more backlash.

Let's take this down to a very small scale.

You draw a picture at school. Multiple kids come up to you and give you criticism. Would you change your drawing for every single critique given to you, even if it means in the end it isn't your work at all?

I have no issue at all with the inclusion of LBGT+ characters. But they must be done for the right reasons, with the authors heart in the right place and to serve the story properly.

Here's a good example of being inclusive done well. The most recent season of Jessica Jones on netflix. Not only did it contain 2 female leads, both who are deeply flawed (read: not mary sues), but it also includes a gay character, a lesbian character, a trans character, and multiple inter racial relationships.

The reason this was effective and inclusive is because none of it is played up for spectacle. The characters are shown struggling and dealing with real, and super human, problems. It's never shoved in the audiences face like "HEY LOOK HOW PROGRESSIVE WE ARE BEING".

I agree with an earlier post in this topic. It can be done, but only if Akira Toryimama feels it serves the story and isn't done for spectacle.

For example, you could have a same sex couple as characters in an upcoming arc. They fight together as a team and a romantic relationship is also implied. I think this would work in the context of Dragon Ball.

You could also have a female or male character use the Dragon Balls to switch genders because they feel inside that they need that to fulfill their goals. Although this whole idea would probably dance on the edge of offensive to someone, as a woman becoming a man to gain strength might be construed as offensive.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Block88 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:42 pm

No I don’t see why people have this idea that a show like dragon ball needs to cater to x,y or z

Go find some other show for that or make your own.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:08 pm

Block88 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:42 pm
No I don’t see why people have this idea that a show like dragon ball needs to cater to x,y or z

Go find some other show for that or make your own.
So you're saying that Dragon Ball is a franchise that does cater and should cater exclusively to straight cis people?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:26 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:08 pm
Block88 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:42 pm
No I don’t see why people have this idea that a show like dragon ball needs to cater to x,y or z

Go find some other show for that or make your own.
So you're saying that Dragon Ball is a franchise that does cater and should cater exclusively to straight cis people?
We're saying DB should be what Toriyama wants it to be, not what fans want it to be. If you want a certain character or story then simply go watch something else that fits what you want.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm

"Queers fuck off!" Sure is a hill to die on.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:23 pm

Not what anyone is saying.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Block88 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:05 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:08 pm
Block88 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:42 pm
No I don’t see why people have this idea that a show like dragon ball needs to cater to x,y or z

Go find some other show for that or make your own.
So you're saying that Dragon Ball is a franchise that does cater and should cater exclusively to straight cis people?
More like if story doesn’t feel like going down that route it doesn’t need nor required to do it.
And as a poster summed it up
sintzu wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:26 pm
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:08 pm
Block88 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:42 pm
No I don’t see why people have this idea that a show like dragon ball needs to cater to x,y or z

Go find some other show for that or make your own.
So you're saying that Dragon Ball is a franchise that does cater and should cater exclusively to straight cis people?
We're saying DB should be what Toriyama wants it to be, not what fans want it to be. If you want a certain character or story then simply go watch something else that fits what you want.
It’s his story not anyone else here,if he feels like it he’ll do it, if he doesn’t oh well.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Thanos » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:54 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:08 pm
So you're saying that Dragon Ball is a franchise that does cater and should cater exclusively to straight cis people?
I don’t think it belongs (necessarily) in Dragon Ball. I don’t see how this series, of all things, “caters exclusively to straight cis people”... or to much of anyone for that matter. It’s a very un-sexy series. It used to be a lot more sexual, but that was 30+ years ago. Relationships in general are rare in the series because Toriyama (by his own admission) sucks at it. There is an abundance of media catering to LGBTQ+ sensibilities, and Dragon Ball happens to not be one of them. Not every single thing has to appeal to all demographics. Furthermore, we cannot expect the East to exactly fall in step with the West in terms of progressive sensibilities.

If we start seeing this kind of thing in Dragon Ball moving forward, awesome! I would personally enjoy seeing something like that. But putting your foot down and expecting it to happen... I wouldn’t hold your breath.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SonEric84 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm
"Queers fuck off!" Sure is a hill to die on.
The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Trans rights, now!

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm

SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm
"Queers fuck off!" Sure is a hill to die on.
The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to prevent the social conditions that lead to that.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Mnich » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:49 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm
SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm
"Queers fuck off!" Sure is a hill to die on.
The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to mitigate that.
Why are you so aggressive? You want to live in a perfect world full o peace, that's fine, but you can't force anyone to add LGBT stuff into his work. As someone said it earlier, it's not a mandatory just because you want it to be...

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by SonEric84 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:55 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm
SonEric84 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:48 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:30 pm
"Queers fuck off!" Sure is a hill to die on.
The best hill considering how annoying and entitled they act. :wink:
Eleven black transgender women have been murdered in 2019 so far. Fuck off to anyone who laughs at our attempts to prevent the social conditions that lead to that.
Japanese authors don't care about your Western sensibilities.

Like I said, entitlement. :lol:
Trans rights, now!

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