With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Shaddy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:11 pm

This person seems to just post single-sentence or sentence fragments for their posts most of the time. Doesn't seem very apt to actually discuss stuff with others, I'd not hedge your bets and just ignore it if I were you, probably not worth the effort.

And responding to a "more LGBT representation" with "gtfo" is about as dismissive-asshole behavior as you can get, honestly.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:07 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:11 pm
This person seems to just post single-sentence or sentence fragments for their posts most of the time. Doesn't seem very apt to actually discuss stuff with others, I'd not hedge your bets and just ignore it if I were you, probably not worth the effort.

And responding to a "more LGBT representation" with "gtfo" is about as dismissive-asshole behavior as you can get, honestly.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by EXBadguy » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:33 pm

I do think DB needs just a few more better female fighters besides Videl, 18, and Kefla. Didn't like the Saiyan sisters, as Caulifla was a SUPER mary sue and Kale was just annoying and riding off Broly's...red sash? As for gay characters, we have General Blue and maybe Whis.

For black characters, Uub's there and Officer Black from part 1 was no push over but they could've made his lips smaller, if DB was made today with THAT character design, it would've been boycotted to. The. Ground!
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:03 pm

Why is Caulifla a 'Mary Sue'? I don't think 'Mary Sue' characters to be a problem as it is but Caulifla did little more than serve a perfectly fitting role in the overall fabric of the arc. She performed the role she needed for other characters and still didn't exactly come across as undefeatable.

'Mary Sue' characters are merely female characters that the creator self-inserts as. What's that tell you about the creator and their emotions? What does that tell you about what they're trying to process in their life? To express and reach? 'Mary Sue' is meant as a pejorative but the entire idea is based in the idea that woman should have no outlet to express their anxieties and dreams. "It's not 'serious art' if you can self-insert!" is the common elitist definition of 'serious art' but if one's idea of serious art is "being detached from the work" then what you have is a weak-willed man-child incapable of properly controlling their emotions in a healthy way so they reject any and all expression of it as immature and 'unserious'.

Rant aside, I love Caulifla and Kale. They're super gay and support one another. With Caulifla I can see where myself on better days shine throw, larger than life and in love with it. With Kale I can see myself in my weakest but also most-loving moments. That's the good shit. I wonder what pieces of which staff member were poured into those two characters? Who are the real people behind them?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:43 pm

Mary sue is used in bad faith so often that it's pretty much straight up a sexist term now, if it wasn't already. honestly i don't know if it was ever used in good faith, but especially in the past few years, it's been pretty frustrating lol.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:29 am

I've noticed that a lot more people complain about Caulifla than Kale, although individually, I think most people would agree that Kale is stronger (so if the complaint is that she's too powerful, you'd figure they would criticize Kale first). I guess because she's a 'legendary' Super Saiyan, that somehow means that she 'deserves' her power more, and her powerups aren't 'out of nowhere' like Caulifla's. But that seems like a weak excuse. I think it's more Caulifla's attitude that people are objecting to, even though she pretty much has the same attitude as Vegeta. Kefla also seemed to mentally be just Caulifla, with little to none of Kale's personality.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by EXBadguy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:49 am

I understand why some people see the term as sexist, and I'd agree...if there wasn't a male version of the term, Gary Sue, which is what Goten and present Trunks fall under. I'm using the official definition of Mary Sue, which, I'd assume most of you know what it means.

Anwyay, the reason why I consider Caulifla one is because of the way she attained three Super Saiyan forms in a heartbeat, without even earning them by training very hard for them or experiencing trauma. The same reason why Goten and Trunks are Gary Sues.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:21 am

EXBadguy wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:49 am
I understand why some people see the term as sexist, and I'd agree...if there wasn't a male version of the term, Gary Sue, which is what Goten and present Trunks fall under. I'm using the official definition of Mary Sue, which, I'd assume most of you know what it means.

Anwyay, the reason why I consider Caulifla one is because of the way she attained three Super Saiyan forms in a heartbeat, without even earning them by training very hard for them or experiencing trauma. The same reason why Goten and Trunks are Gary Sues.
The "official" definition? Is Mary Sue in the Oxford dictionary now?

There's a reason everyone always brings up Goten and Trunks in relation to Caulifla, and it isn't because they're all big Sues dancing hand in hand under the sun. I've never seen anyone call Goten and Trunks that before.

It's because Goten and Trunks marked the point where Super Saiyan was no longer special. Four different characters had achieved it prior to them, the arc had moved on. This isn't a bad thing. In a story about progression, you can't keep repeating the same milestones and giving them the same level of impact every time. Note that the manga didn't show Gohan or Vegeta getting SS1 either.

So why did people make a big deal about it again with Caulifla, but conveniently not Cabba? Because Mary Sue is a loaded sexist term, and the nitpicky nerds who use it are really bad at hiding that.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:51 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:21 am
It's because Goten and Trunks marked the point where Super Saiyan was no longer special. Four different characters had achieved it prior to them, the arc had moved on. This isn't a bad thing. In a story about progression, you can't keep repeating the same milestones and giving them the same level of impact every time. Note that the manga didn't show Gohan or Vegeta getting SS1 either.
hell it doesn't even show future trunks getting SSJ1, which i actually think is a narrative mistake compared to the other two but whatever. but i've never seen why people didn't like goten and trunks being able to go super saiyan. they were both introduced during a primarily comedy focused part of the series, just having them being able too do it and not having it be awoke when we first see them is a pretty good swerve and works well with the comedy tone, and from a narrative perspective it's just not something we need to see.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by EXBadguy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:47 am

Thought it was clearly explained in the manga that Gohan and Vegeta trained very hard for the form as well. Fine, anime wise Caulifla, Goten, and present Trunks are all Sues. And about Cabba, his way of achieving the form was legit cuz he was mentally pushed to the limit, something that Caulifla, Goten, and present Trunks didn't experience prior to achieving theirs. Hell, as much as I didn't like Kale, she wasn't a Sue either.
Kataphrut wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:21 am
It's because Goten and Trunks marked the point where Super Saiyan was no longer special. Four different characters had achieved it prior to them, the arc had moved on. This isn't a bad thing. In a story about progression, you can't keep repeating the same milestones and giving them the same level of impact every time. Note that the manga didn't show Gohan or Vegeta getting SS1 either.
I agree and disagree because even though this is a story about progression, there still needs to be consistency. They could've at least give a meaningful explanation of how Goten and Trunks got the form instead of what actually happened.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:14 am

People abuse the term Mary Sue. Goten and Trunks aren't perfect nor better than all the other characters, including the leads.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:40 pm

EXBadguy wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:49 am
I understand why some people see the term as sexist, and I'd agree...if there wasn't a male version of the term, Gary Sue, which is what Goten and present Trunks fall under.
I believe the term is "Gary Stu". Also, just because there is a male equivalent of something does not make that something any less sexist.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Shaddy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:14 pm

Well it's the use of the thing that matters, and frankly any instance of a girl character doing stuff gets called a "Mary-sue" nowadays, which is where the problem lies.

Nonetheless, it doesn't work for any of the U6 saiyans. Cabba was written in the U6 tourney to be an up-and-coming young saiyan that Vegeta could teach something to, whereas all of the U6 sayians were written to be contenders in the TOP and potential threats to the heroes. Given that what Vegeta ended up teaching to Cabba was Super Saiyan, all three of them were given massive power increases in a very short amount of time to make anything they did remotely believable or threatening. There's nothing "Mary-sue" about that (other than it being poor writing) unless your definition of a sue is the above.

Thing is, that's not what that means. A Mary-Sue is a character specifically written to project a certain emotion cheaply and who has no depth or interest compared to other characters. They're not just strong, they're the strongest with no other reason than being themselves. They're not just good, they're infallible. They don't need character growth because they already do everything right. Everyone loves them and any mistakes they supposedly make are easily forgotten because they're good at everything and everyone likes them. Think something between Sasuke Uchiha and the guy from Ctrl Alt Del.

There aren't many characters in DB that fall under this (Broly is a less-complex example), but if anyone does, it's fucking Goku. Specifically Super Goku. Guy doesn't get any consequences for his actions nowadays. He's the best and wins, and when he doesn't it never feels like his own fault. He doesn't grow, and has even moved backwards in some ways, and nobody at any point actually holds him accountable for his mistakes.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by MajinMan » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:27 pm

Super Goku isn’t a Mary Sue either. He constantly forgets important items in the Future Trunks arc and doesn’t win like 80% of his fights against meaningful opponents. I don’t think there is a single Mary Sue in Dragon Ball, other than MAYBE Super Broly or a fusion like Gogeta or Vegetto.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:59 pm

Again, Kale is stronger than Caulifla, and she seemingly trained less than her in preparation for the ToP. So why does she get a pass when Caulifla doesn't?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:06 pm

Anyway, if anyone's a Mary Sue/Gary Stu in the Dragonball franchise, it's Future Trunks.

When he first appears, he comes off a lot like a fanfiction self-insert:

- Mysteriously appears out of nowhere, easily being able to use the supposedly unique, legendary power that only Goku was thought to have previously
- Toys with and effortlessly defeats the main villain of the last arc, who had been built up as the greatest threat in the universe, and had come back even more powerful
- Is revealed to be the son of two of the most popular characters, who previously had little to no chemistry behind them.

Yeah, he gets outclassed, beaten, and humiliated several times in the Cell Saga, but he ends it by defeating all 3 of the major villains of the entire arc in a single episode.

Super makes it worse. He easily defeats Dabura, who Gohan had major trouble with, he is somehow able to keep up against god-tier characters like Goku Black and Zamasu, he gets an unexplained new form out of nowhere, he learns an ancient, forbidden technique that was known for taking the lives of its users and even took post-RoF Goku a whole night and day to learn by watching it performed on a phone video in like 40 seconds, then performs it perfectly, he then somehow learns how to do a better version of Goku's ultimate technique...
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:45 pm

Isn't Mary Sue supposed to be a self-insert? Do you really think Toriyama was writing any of these characters and thinking "yeah, I could be them!"?

Simply being powerful doesn't make you flawless in this series. Most characters have faults to back it up. Just above me, we have someone arguing for why Future Trunks is the Sue, but then admits that he gets outclassed and humiliated several times. That goes to show that just because a character has "big numbers" doesn't stop them from being flawed or developed. Same goes for most characters that rise to the top for a brief time.

Maybe you could make a case for Super Broly, but even then just saying "lol Mary Sue" is reductive. His problem is that he's...kind of a Disney princess. Leaving aside his power, he's loved by the good guys, exploited by the bad guys, needs to be rescued, and has no agency or desires of his own. It was a good movie and his backstory and interactions with Cheelai and Lemo made him sympathetic, but it's hard to call him flawed. His rage is more of a "magic curse" than a character trait.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:47 am

Trunks isn't a Mary Sue. He's powerful, but he's not perfect. He defeats the main villains of the arc, but not at their strongest. He doesn't outclass the main characters.
There aren't many characters in DB that fall under this (Broly is a less-complex example), but if anyone does, it's fucking Goku. Specifically Super Goku. Guy doesn't get any consequences for his actions nowadays. He's the best and wins, and when he doesn't it never feels like his own fault. He doesn't grow, and has even moved backwards in some ways, and nobody at any point actually holds him accountable for his mistakes.
He's the main character, not a self insert.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:18 pm

i can definitely see how some people would look at trunks introduction as like the worst kinda fan fic writing, but i don't think that assessment holds up for how his character is written for the rest of the arc. i do wonder how many fan fic writers were inspired by trunks though, hehe.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by omegacwa » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:28 am

The issue with Caulifla and Kale all steams from Cabba. Toei/Toryiama wrote themselves into a corner by not having Cabba already able to turn Super Saiyan. Had he already been able to, and it was explained that many of the U6 Saiyans had the ability, and that it was common place, then that would have absolved most of the problems with Caulifla and Kale's Characters.

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