With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by EXBadguy » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:32 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:59 pm
Again, Kale is stronger than Caulifla, and she seemingly trained less than her in preparation for the ToP. So why does she get a pass when Caulifla doesn't?
Because unlike Caulifla, Kale was mentally pushed.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:14 am

omegacwa wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:28 am
The issue with Caulifla and Kale all steams from Cabba. Toei/Toryiama wrote themselves into a corner by not having Cabba already able to turn Super Saiyan. Had he already been able to, and it was explained that many of the U6 Saiyans had the ability, and that it was common place, then that would have absolved most of the problems with Caulifla and Kale's Characters.
That's Toriyama in a nutshell isn't it? Half the fun is seeing him write himself into a corner, then write back out of it. Cabba could have had Super Saiyan already, but he didn't, and so that was the hand that was dealt when it came to writing Caulifla and Kale.

I've still yet to see a convincing argument for why any of them being strong enough to unlock Super Saiyan without an emotional trigger is a problem. I've already said that it's barely a milestone compared to the current tier of power, and simply repeating the dramatic moment of Goku on Namek would blunt the impact. Hell, we saw that in the Broly movie, Toriyama's most recent attempt at writing a Super Saiyan transformation, and literally was just Freeza "following the script" for creating a Super Saiyan. Toriyama played it as a gag, which goes to show just how well he gets it. And wasn't there an interview somewhere referring to the "tingly back" description as his idea?

We're already miles off topic, but I'd be interested to know how the characters from Super, which were created by Toriyama but never actually written by him, would differ if he wrote them himself. Dialogue and banter are two of his best strengths, it's weird for him to "outsource" that. Hell, I genuinely want to see him write for Jiren. The only character he apparently cared about enough to veto what Toei were doing; let's see him do better.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:13 am

I've still yet to see a convincing argument for why any of them being strong enough to unlock Super Saiyan without an emotional trigger is a problem. I've already said that it's barely a milestone compared to the current tier of power, and simply repeating the dramatic moment of Goku on Namek would blunt the impact.
You mean aside from that being a requirement?
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:28 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:13 am
You mean aside from that being a requirement?

Don't forget Trunks and Goten. It hasn't been a requirement for longer than you think.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:00 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:28 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:13 am
You mean aside from that being a requirement?

Don't forget Trunks and Goten. It hasn't been a requirement for longer than you think.
Don’t forget Goku and Gohan walking out of the Time Chamber for the first time with blonde hair. They basically proved then and there that you didn’t need rage.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:53 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:00 am


Don’t forget Goku and Gohan walking out of the Time Chamber for the first time with blonde hair. They basically proved then and there that you didn’t need rage.
I think they're talking about first times

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:22 pm

mute_proxy wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:28 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:13 am
You mean aside from that being a requirement?

Don't forget Trunks and Goten. It hasn't been a requirement for longer than you think.
I haven't. That's my point. It was always a requirement until then and for no discernible reason.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:53 am

Mister Satan is such a pansexual icon. After suffering through the tragedy of his wife's death he still found the strength to move on thanks to his new husband, Majin Buu. Mad props.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by omegacwa » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:17 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:53 am
Mister Satan is such a pansexual icon. After suffering through the tragedy of his wife's death he still found the strength to move on thanks to his new husband, Majin Buu. Mad props.
That certainly is an interesting view point.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:18 am

omegacwa wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:17 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:53 am
Mister Satan is such a pansexual icon. After suffering through the tragedy of his wife's death he still found the strength to move on thanks to his new husband, Majin Buu. Mad props.
That certainly is an interesting view point.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:29 am

EXBadguy wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:49 am
I understand why some people see the term as sexist, and I'd agree...if there wasn't a male version of the term, Gary Sue, which is what Goten and present Trunks fall under. I'm using the official definition of Mary Sue, which, I'd assume most of you know what it means.
But here's the thing: no. If you're calling Caulifla a Mary Sue or Goten & Trunks Gary Stus, you fundamentally don't understand what the terms mean.

Mary Sue doesn't mean "magically competent at something." It's a large variety of traits. The closest character to a "Mary Sue" in Dragon Ball is Son Goku himself, and even he doesn't count. If Caulifla was a Mary Sue, then she'd be the strongest in Universe 6, would very quickly become the love interest in several of the male characters, would have won the Tournament of Power (or at least let U7 win), would have ass-pulled multiple reasons to not be erased (such as tugging the Omni-Kings hearts), and would have otherwise warped canon and the narrative around herself. I'd argue that last point is the single most important trait of a Mary Sue. Caulifla's most Mary Sueish trait is that she went Super Saiyan 2 too easily, which is and always will be a complete ass-pull but not something that would make a Mary Sue unless she were suddenly Saiyan Mother Mary.
"Mary Sue" these days is pretty much just shorthand for "female character who does something exceptional". And just to be "politically correct", people are starting to over-apply the term Gary Stu to male characters so now that any male character who does something exceptional gets hit with the label.

No. Just... no. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Speaking of politically correct: to answer the OP, I mean, why not? As long as it makes sense (e.g. "Tenshinhan is actually genderqueer and has been all this time" is the laziest possible route and wouldn't go over well to boot) and people don't expect them to lead the show. I've always thought Goten and Trunks would make for the best pair if it had to be done— surprisingly unpopular opinion, but I've always preferred Caulifla and Kale be platonic friends. It's pretty much the Gohan-Trunks relationship (or, hell, the Kamina-Simon relationship), but people automatically add romance to it just because they're female. You know what I mean, that always felt off to me, but I'm not hung up on it.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Ajay » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:56 am

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:29 am
, but people automatically add romance to it just because they're female. You know what I mean, that always felt off to me, but I'm not hung up on it.
No, they don't. They do it because Kale blushes over Caulifla and gets jealous over Cabba's interactions. Their interactions ooze gay and it's wonderful, even if it's not explicitly mentioned.

Even if it didn't, their gender is irrelevant. People constantly highlighted how gay Black and Zamasu were because of their gazes and hugging. The amount of fan art of that stuff is extraordinary.

As for Trunks and Gohan... Woo boy, that's a big ol gay can of endless art and fan fiction too.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:12 am

yeah when i was first started questioning my sexuality, i did definitely read a lot of gay dragon ball fan fics with adult versions of trunks and goten. there just well written stories i promise their nothing.......
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:49 am

Ajay wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:56 am
Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:29 am
, but people automatically add romance to it just because they're female. You know what I mean, that always felt off to me, but I'm not hung up on it.
No, they don't. They do it because Kale blushes over Caulifla and gets jealous over Cabba's interactions. Their interactions ooze gay and it's wonderful, even if it's not explicitly mentioned.

Even if it didn't, their gender is irrelevant. People constantly highlighted how gay Black and Zamasu were because of their gazes and hugging. The amount of fan art of that stuff is extraordinary.

As for Trunks and Gohan... Woo boy, that's a big ol gay can of endless art and fan fiction too.
It's funny isn't it? Dragon Ball basically popularised the concept of fusion (I don't know if it invented it, I'm not Googling to find out) but never put much thought into the deeper meaning behind the idea. It was just another toy for the toy box, because that's how Toriyama do. Decades later, we get Steven Universe, which does go deeper into the concept of combining two characters into one person. And it used it as a metaphor for relationships, primarily same-sex ones. A little while later, Dragon Ball Super comes out and introduces not one, but two gay AF potara fusion pairings.

I'm not saying Super was inspired by Steven Universe since it's a Western show (though SU was clearly inspired by DB given the first season is basically the Saiyan saga) but the timing is interesting.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:15 am

Ajay wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:56 am
As for Trunks and Gohan... Woo boy, that's a big ol gay can of endless art and fan fiction too.
Well because apparently two guys can't be close without it supposedly having sexual undertones. Some people take issue with Steve not staying with Bucky at the end of Endgame despite there never being anything remotely romantic between them.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:44 am

Ajay wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:56 am
As for Trunks and Gohan... Woo boy, that's a big ol gay can of endless art and fan fiction too.
Don't forget Trunks and Goten, Gohan and Goten, and the infamous threesome fan art.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:15 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:15 am
Ajay wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:56 am
As for Trunks and Gohan... Woo boy, that's a big ol gay can of endless art and fan fiction too.
Well because apparently two guys can't be close without it supposedly having sexual undertones. Some people take issue with Steve not staying with Bucky at the end of Endgame despite there never being anything remotely romantic between them.
That's because Steve and Tony are the ones in love. Sam and Bucky are the other gay pairing.

Sam and Bucky especially just ooze gay for one another. Bucky knows his path is different from Steve's but with Sam? They're fucking, they're living together and they just adopted a dog, cat and pet turtle together. The morning blow jobs are fantastic.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:31 am

Apparently men can't be close with each other or emotional without there being gay undertones. I don't think that's a healthy POV.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:56 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:31 am
Apparently men can't be close with each other or emotional without there being gay undertones. I don't think that's a healthy POV.
Save the concern trolling for when I do this with real people, sweetie.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:06 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:56 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:31 am
Apparently men can't be close with each other or emotional without there being gay undertones. I don't think that's a healthy POV.
Save the concern trolling for when I do this with real people, sweetie.
I kindly ask you to please stop with the condescension and calling me sweetie or honey. This was hardly me trolling.
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