With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:38 pm

I know and I love that scene but its not a good argument for Toriyama's writing talent.

Son Gohan and Goku hugging was in the manga so that's valid I think.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Thanos » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:21 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Being asexual and being capable of having sex are not mutually exclusive. Chi Chi more than likely convinced him that sex was part and parcel for being married. Goku still has no interest in sex or women (or men obviously) ergo he’s asexual no matter how you want to spin it.
That’s an interesting point. His lack of interest could be chalked up to ignorance, but sexuality isn’t a learned behavior. I remember feeling arousal as a kid before I even knew what was happening. Even after being, presumably passably educated on the matter, he still doesn’t seem at all interested. An actual heterosexual in his situation might be ignorant, but upon learning about the “ins and outs” of sexuality, would probably go on to have a normal relationship with his wife. Based on how his character has been written, it’s easy to determine given a choice between fighting and sex, he would choose fighting 11 times out of 10. Same with food.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Brodes » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:17 am

What perplexes me is the belief that LGBTQIA+ characters couldn't be chaste. It could be easily achieved with, for example a male character announcing that he "will win this fight for [my] family, for [my] husband" or a quick touch (hand squeeze on the shoulder before a battle), and "win this battle my love". A downtime episode could feature Yamucha asking Tenshinhan if he'd met any women while training (in an 'I'm so desperate maybe ill get back into training if he's met someone' type conversation or something) and the response that being with Chaozu is what fullfills him alongside his martial arts pursuits, or something. None of that is anything more than what heterosexual couples have had, still remains in character for established characters with the latter and still ticks all the chaste requirement boxes.

Like, the idea that just because they're LGBTQIA+ it needs to become a romance series or suddenly can't be chaste is nonsense.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Cold Skin » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:51 pm

Okay, first, this term is starting to look weird and long to pronounce with all those letters... :shock:
Why adding more letters to represent more people if it still requires a "+" in the end for "and all the others that we don't address with a letter"? It adds more letters to make sure other groups don't feel excluded, and all of this to still require the "and the others"...
It would be about time to invent a full-fledged term that's not just a weird acronym and that encompasses all those categories in a more natural word. But hey, that's not up to us on this forum, nothing we can do about it...

On the subject itself now...

Do we even have a shonen that actually has an openly gay character with that information being used naturally and not to make fun of him and make jokes?
Because if we don't, the question is solved: Dragon Ball is a typical shonen (even the one that popularized the typical shonen codes in some countries) and will not be the one to open any progressive march, especially since romance and sexuality in DB are things that come up only to make fun of characters (Vegeta being easy to manipulate everytime you mention Bulma in danger, the various perverts, Goku's lack of any real knowledge or will to be romantic or even a good family man, the Pilaf gang and kids thinking holding hands is something outrageously sexy...).

It's meant to fit the mentality of a little boy in front of his TV or reading his manga: at this age, romance and sexuality are things that will make him laugh from the strange behaviors it seems to induce with teenagers and grown-ups (perverts obsessed by it beyond reasons, Saiyans being easy to manipulate everytime you say "might put your precious wife in danger", Saiyans being even more clueless than any kid when it comes to love stuff, etc...). Other than that, it's also meant to bring a baby to the table, with the kid watching/reading "oh, there's a new character now, I wonder if he/she'll be powerful when growing up".

Don't forget that despite DB taking in account the "old ones from back then" that we are sometimes (including me), it will still target something suitable to make an enjoyable experience for a little kid above all else: good guys having to face the next bad guy, with a part of exploration, with nice chunks of comedy here and there involving friends and family, and with VERY sparse moments evoking romance mostly meant for extra jokes and bringing up a descendant when need be (sometimes to justify heroic moments in battle too). This question really comes last in what makes it all enjoyable for him.

Romance/sexuality is not just secondary, it is a complete footnote to the franchise that just sometimes serves sparsely as a tool for the next minute of laugh or for the next character "popping up" (the utilitary side of it all and this expression being well illustrated by how Whis made Bra literaly pop up).
No big efforts on representation is likely to be made for an aspect that's essentially a rare tool sometimes showing up for laughs or extra babies and pretty much never for character development/deepening.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:28 pm

I see no reason to begin the discussion from the center--a retention of the status quo--when such would do no favors for us. Beginning the issue from the most progressive position on the subject seems most appropriate, especially given that the status quo is by default a conservative position given the fact that the subject is "should Dragon Ball be more queer?" I literally don't get it at all.

As for the extra letters, queerdom is wide and vast. I can remember LGBTQIA+ to at least cover a few extra pieces of our fellow human beings. The sad thing is I can't seem to find an official abbreviation for 'pansexual' therefore I cannot even include that piece of myself in my LGBTQIA+ term. It's really embarrassing!
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:27 am

Hunter X Hunter has a canonical gay character, a trans character and non-binary characters who are all great. Killua is also gay af and its as overt as it gets, but I will still wait until Togashi makes it canon so that I don't have to deal with "muh canon" fans. None of that takes away from the fighting or the essence of the show or whatever bullshit. It is one of the greatest shounen of all time.

Hero Aca has a couple of cool trans characters who are not really major characters, or atleast aren't major yet. I am an anime-only fan so I wouldn't know whats going on in the manga. Who knows maybe they got a bigger role.

There are a few more, but I can't remember. Yes, they are not the majority and there are a lot of changes to be made, but they exist.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:51 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:27 am
Killua is gay af and its as overt as it gets, but I will still wait until Togashi makes it canon so that I don't have to deal with "muh canon" fans.
Why do you and whoever thinks like you care about whether or not a TWELVE YEAR OLD is gay or straight ? You people really give anime fans a bad reputation.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:30 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:51 am
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:27 am
Killua is gay af and its as overt as it gets, but I will still wait until Togashi makes it canon so that I don't have to deal with "muh canon" fans.
Why do you and whoever thinks like you care about whether or not a TWELVE YEAR OLD is gay or straight ? You people really give anime fans a bad reputation.
LOL, it's lines on a paper honey, it's okay for them to be abstract and represent ideas.

But thanks for letting us know that you think it is not normal to be gay. Guess I won't date girls anymore to respect your feelings.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:46 am

Cold Skin wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:51 pm
Okay, first, this term is starting to look weird and long to pronounce with all those letters... :shock:
Why adding more letters to represent more people if it still requires a "+" in the end for "and all the others that we don't address with a letter"? It adds more letters to make sure other groups don't feel excluded, and all of this to still require the "and the others"...
It would be about time to invent a full-fledged term that's not just a weird acronym and that encompasses all those categories in a more natural word. But hey, that's not up to us on this forum, nothing we can do about it...
most people i know just use LGBTQ+, "queer" has more or less become a all encompassing term for the community, but since it's a reclaimed slur not everyone's gonna be comfortable with it, and obviously non LGBTQ+ people using the term can be iffy.

LGBTQIA+ as a acronym i'm not a fan of though. not because it's too long or anything like that, but because of the amount of arguments i've seen about if the A means asexual or allies, which then leads to debates on weather or not ace people are queer (they are), and it's just kind of a headache for me.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:48 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:51 am
Why do you and whoever thinks like you care about whether or not a TWELVE YEAR OLD is gay or straight ? You people really give anime fans a bad reputation.
Surely you do realize that at 12 years old, a ton of kids are already starting to feel the first twinges of sexual urges towards whatever their preference is? It's entirely possible to talk about that sort of thing without it automatically sexualizing a child, and people's inability to do so is a big part of why sexual education in the US is so laughable and why so many people end up pregnant in high school. Hell, I certainly remember being at about that age when I first started to notice girls and thinking 'hey, maybe this cooties thing is a farce'.

More on subject, while I would certainly be more than okay with them introducing such characters, I would hope they would introduce them well and not just put them in to mark off of a check list or reduce them to stereotypes where they just feel gimmicky rather than being actual representation. That's where I'm not entirely sure I 100% trust Toriyama or Toei's ability to do such a thing sadly too...we haven't really had a lot of evidence in their ability to do so, so I'd be a bit worried it wouldn't end well.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by sintzu » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:17 am

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:48 am
Surely you do realize that at 12 years old, a ton of kids are already starting to feel the first twinges of sexual urges towards whatever their preference is? It's entirely possible to talk about that sort of thing without it automatically sexualizing a child.
If it's possible to talk about that then why don't you start asking twelve year olds about their "preference" in public and see how long you last before the police pick you up. Please tell us about the results once you're done.
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:30 am
Thanks for letting us know that you think it is not normal to be gay.
I think it's very clear what my comment was about so don't twist my words.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:37 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:17 am
Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:48 am
Surely you do realize that at 12 years old, a ton of kids are already starting to feel the first twinges of sexual urges towards whatever their preference is? It's entirely possible to talk about that sort of thing without it automatically sexualizing a child.
If it's possible to talk about that then why don't you start asking twelve year olds about their "preference" in public and see how long you last before the police pick you up. Please tell us about the results once you're done.
Nice try, but that's an entirely different situation, and you know it.

For one thing, it's a fairly safe assumption that everyone on this forum is going to be well over 12 years old (or should be, considering there was at least at one point in time an age requirement to join the forums). No actual 12 year olds involved - which brings me to my second point. Talking about a fictional character and their preferences? 100% not the same thing as what you're trying to conflate it to of randomly walking up to kids on the street and asking what they're attracted to. And for what it's worth, more parents should be talking to their kids about such things at some point in their pre-teen to teenage years, to help them better understand their changing bodies and urges. Schools clearly aren't going to do it, and parents leaving it up to chance is why so many kids are ending up pregnant in high school. Hell, I'm straight, and I still feel like I would have been better prepared for adult relationships in general if I'd actually been given "the talk" at some point in my life, rather than being left to discover so many things on my own via the internet, so I can scarcely even imagine the confusion that people of other orientations go through in their teenage years, since there's still so much prejudice out there against them, especially in schools.

Like it or not, people of other orientations appearing in media, especially kid's media, is an incredibly important step in society towards making people less judgmental and biased towards them in real life. For too long, kids have been absorbing the exact same old biases that the generations before us have grown up on. The earlier a kid can be shown that people are people irregardless of who they love, the better; and again, it is entirely possible to talk about such things without making it lewd. The fact that some people seem to think it's not truly worries me.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:07 am

I'm wary of the whole 'it's just a fictional character' argument, because that has been used to justify stuff like loli and rape hentai.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:31 am

DB isn't a shipper show nor do I think it should turn into one. I guess to add more gay characters into the series you would just have them make offhand comments.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:25 pm

Does he not get the job done?


Technically Dragon Ball has been there and done that.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:35 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:07 am
I'm wary of the whole 'it's just a fictional character' argument, because that has been used to justify stuff like loli and rape hentai.
There is nothing wrong with those two. I prefer vanilla above all as much as any girl but eroticism exists in rape-play, too.

Don't define the parameters of someone else's sexually and gender.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:38 pm
It's still gay and still queer.
Do you think ginyu and frieza too?

It's an exaggeration
gantarat wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 am
Also, as far as Super concerned.

Caulifla's think to Kale as a Sister
yes, both are like tien and chiaotzu
gantarat wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:28 am
and She start to be close Cabba? (drag him to training with them)
Not really, because that does not mean anything.

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:58 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:27 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:38 pm
It's still gay and still queer.
Do you think ginyu and frieza too?

It's an exaggeration
Exaggeration is what helps draw in fans. The cartoon gives Black and Zamasu such a strong relationship based on their own narcissism that fans can easily bend it as they please even with restrictions placed on the story content in official works.
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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by Mnich » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:42 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:58 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:27 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:38 pm
It's still gay and still queer.
Do you think ginyu and frieza too?

It's an exaggeration
Exaggeration is what helps draw in fans. The cartoon gives Black and Zamasu such a strong relationship based on their own narcissism that fans can easily bend it as they please even with restrictions placed on the story content in official works.
Ooh dude, now I know why you were saying that Kale and Caulifla are lesbians, because you're using your headcanon. Ok. You should watch some fan artworks of Goku and Vegeta kissing and doing other weird things, they're probably gay, you know, Goku insisted to hold hands with him during Instant Transmission, everything is clear now! :lol:

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Re: With DragonBall getting more and more global, it's time to include more lgbtqia+ characters

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:30 pm

Mnich wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:42 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:58 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:27 pm


Do you think ginyu and frieza too?

It's an exaggeration
Exaggeration is what helps draw in fans. The cartoon gives Black and Zamasu such a strong relationship based on their own narcissism that fans can easily bend it as they please even with restrictions placed on the story content in official works.
Ooh dude, now I know why you were saying that Kale and Caulifla are lesbians, because you're using your headcanon. Ok. You should watch some fan artworks of Goku and Vegeta kissing and doing other weird things, they're probably gay, you know, Goku insisted to hold hands with him during Instant Transmission, everything is clear now! :lol:
If you want to interpret a romantic bent to Gokuu and Vegeta's relationship I have zero problems with that. With fiction anything is possible.

Black tops Zamasu, by the way.
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