Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

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Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:51 pm

Despite the excellent remastering, compared to the funimation blurays, the scenes of Dragon Ball Kai that have been revived are a nuisance. Why were they so obvious?

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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:06 pm

Same reason Super’s animation was shit, I imagine.

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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:35 pm

Because its glossy late 2000s/early 2010s digital animation being interwoven flush alongside 20+ year old hand painted cell animation that was originally shot on grainy-ass 16mm film back in the late 1980s/early 1990s? That might have something to do with it just for starters.

Despite Toei's attempts at sprucing up the original animation itself to better "blend in" with the new re-animated bits, at the end of the day there's just no getting around that this is a much older anime from a much different era of Japanese television animation from the form its taken the past 10 to 15 someodd years. And thus, you're just NOT gonna be able to fully "hide" that fact, shy of just reanimating the whole damn thing 100% from scratch.

No matter how much FUNimation, Toei, and even the Western DB fandom as a whole tries to "will" it otherwise, the original Dragon Ball/Z anime is fundamentally and unmistakably a product of the 1980s and early 1990s and nothing's ever going to really disguise or change that. Hell, it wasn't even "the new hotness" back when most Western/US fans had first gotten into it more than a decade after the fact in the late 90s/early 2000s.

There's a weird obsession (that started out primarily among FUNimation and U.S. fans in the early to mid aughts, but seems to have - to whatever extent - spread over to Toei as well) with trying to keep this franchise "forever young" as if its eternally this fresh new upstart thing on the cutting-most bleeding edge of pop culture (which once upon a time it actually WAS, but that was almost literally a lifetime ago now) and somehow isn't a 30/35 year old institution that's already massively altered the landscape and influenced a whole generation or two of both Japanese and global popular culture (for better and for worse) for the better part of the last few decades now.

Almost like a willful attempt on the part of both FUNi, Toei, and the "hardcore fans" to purposefully try to ignore/forget/erase the reality of the series' own history from the forefront of people's minds and have it function on almost a Marvel Comics-like "sliding timescale"; where the whitehot prime of DB's original run is always kept in some vague, nebulous "recent past" in the public/fandom consciousness. This whole mindset of "keep on always acting like Dragon Ball is forever new and shiny" has always been totally baffling and bizarre to me and I've never particularly understood what exactly the point of it was ever supposed to be in people's minds.

But yeah, Kai's "refreshed" visuals hold up about as well as Botox on a 60 year old for a reason. Because that's effectively what its the animation equivalent of: a bad bit of plastic surgery on an older franchise that isn't being allowed by its corporate handlers or its younger fanbase to simply age gracefully.
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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:02 pm

It was just shoddily and hastily done. It's a shame because the regular remastered footage looks quite great but then the redrawn scenes stick out like a sore thumb.
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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:22 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:35 pm
Because its glossy late 2000s/early 2010s digital animation being interwoven flush alongside 20+ year old hand painted cell animation that was originally shot on grainy-ass 16mm film back in the late 1980s/early 1990s? That might have something to do with it just for starters.
That being said I think it would have had a better shot where it to be done like Super Broly with lines of varying thicknesses and that sort of thing. Plus a slight camera shake and a grain filter to really sell it.

Funnily enough this is one of the few things T1C actually got right, by AVOIDING the use of redrawn frames. Sadly, that was for budgetary reasons, not artistic one. Because as we all well know, Dragon Ball is not the place for art... :problem:

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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:07 am

KBABZ wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:22 pm
Because as we all well know, Dragon Ball is not the place for art... :problem:
This is a real shame because that's not always how things were with it. DB was very much a place for art during the original manga's days when Toriyama was writing it. The sad thing is, you've got people who say there's no difference between DB now and back then.
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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by Ajay » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:42 am

KBABZ wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:22 pm
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:35 pm
Because its glossy late 2000s/early 2010s digital animation being interwoven flush alongside 20+ year old hand painted cell animation that was originally shot on grainy-ass 16mm film back in the late 1980s/early 1990s? That might have something to do with it just for starters.
That being said I think it would have had a better shot where it to be done like Super Broly with lines of varying thicknesses and that sort of thing. Plus a slight camera shake and a grain filter to really sell it.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. It's not that it's "new", it's just really poorly done. Line tool, next to no variation, no texture, nothing. It's awful on its own, let alone next to older footage.

You can replicate the cel look fine enough, you just need to maybe not outsource it to the Philippines with the most barebones direction.
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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:38 am

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:07 am
This is a real shame because that's not always how things were with it. DB was very much a place for art during the original manga's days when Toriyama was writing it. The sad thing is, you've got people who say there's no difference between DB now and back then.
Agreed. DB, Z and even GT were more about art and making the best product they could under the circumstances. DB today, with the exception perhaps of the Broly movie, is much more about treading old ground and hype.
Ajay wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:42 am
Yeah, that's pretty much it. It's not that it's "new", it's just really poorly done. Line tool, next to no variation, no texture, nothing. It's awful on its own, let alone next to older footage.

You can replicate the cel look fine enough, you just need to maybe not outsource it to the Philippines with the most barebones direction.
I think both images look great, despite having very different styles. Variable line width looks great no matter the age though, and the lack of it makes the redrawn shots look like they made them all in Adobe Flash. Heck, there are in fact two redrawn shots which looked really good, the shots of Piccolo's defeat at the 23rd TB so that he has purple blood. I took a screenshot of it, applied a bit of grain and blur, and it looks almost passable already!

The lack of care Kai had towards making the new footage blend in with the old is why I took that angle specifically with my own take on it with the original DB, specifically things like adding blur and off-white tones to the new title card text and redone credits so it blends in much better.

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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by sintzu » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:47 am

KBABZ wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:38 am
The lack of care Kai had towards making the new footage blend in with the old is why I took that angle specifically with my own take on it with the original DB, specifically things like adding blur and off-white tones to the new title card text and redone credits so it blends in much better.
Fans are always improving things with DB so it's clearly not that hard for the company that makes it, they just don't want to bother. You'd think that with a brand as strong as DB, the companies behind it would try to give it the best possible treatment, but for some reaosn they cut corners at nearly every possible turn.
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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:37 am

KBABZ wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:38 am
Agreed. DB, Z and even GT were more about art and making the best product they could under the circumstances. DB today, with the exception perhaps of the Broly movie, is much more about treading old ground and hype.
GT was about keeping the money train going.
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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:06 am

sintzu wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:47 am
Fans are always improving things with DB so it's clearly not that hard for the company that makes it, they just don't want to bother. You'd think that with a brand as strong as DB, the companies behind it would try to give it the best possible treatment, but for some reaosn they cut corners at nearly every possible turn.
Well firstly I feel it's always a lot easier for fans to just make something because for people like us there's very little to lose, while Toei has many different processes to think about. It doesn't justify everything of course, and in particular Toei has come upon a nasty habit lately of being adverse about spending any money. And as a fan of Ratchet & Clank who's seen the movie, I know exactly what comes of that.
ABED wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:37 am
GT was about keeping the money train going.
Well yes obviously, but I feel like as far as Continuations of Z go, GT is a lot more earnest than Super is.

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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by omegacwa » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:15 am

As an artist myself something I don't fully understand is why digital art feels "dead" and traditional art feels "alive", if that makes sense? I do mostly digital art now (Wacom Cintiq w/Clip Studio) but I agree that there's this weird intangible thing that's missing despite using almost identical technique as I do on paper.

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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:25 am

omegacwa wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:15 am
As an artist myself something I don't fully understand is why digital art feels "dead" and traditional art feels "alive", if that makes sense? I do mostly digital art now (Wacom Cintiq w/Clip Studio) but I agree that there's this weird intangible thing that's missing despite using almost identical technique as I do on paper.
I think much of that is an emotional thing. Digital is all 1's and 0's. It's not tactile.
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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:31 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:15 am
As an artist myself something I don't fully understand is why digital art feels "dead" and traditional art feels "alive", if that makes sense? I do mostly digital art now (Wacom Cintiq w/Clip Studio) but I agree that there's this weird intangible thing that's missing despite using almost identical technique as I do on paper.
I personally think it has to do with how digital art requires you to put in the "soul" manually, or at least it's more difficult. With physical art you have things like brush strokes and the paper and whatnot that gives the linework more personality and "intent".

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Re: Why the re-animated scenes of Dragon Ball Kai are so obvious?

Post by VDenter » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:39 pm

It doesn't help that Kai looks way too blurry for a 1080p source. It just looks awful when compared to the Level Sets.

Kai is a mess from top to bottom.

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