The rise of 80s anime art

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eledoremassis02
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The rise of 80s anime art

Post by eledoremassis02 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:17 pm

Thanks to city pop and vapor wave, 80s anime designs are getting popular internationally, for a generation that wasnt even alive in the 80s or early 90s. But I wonder if that had any play on the art direction broly went under?
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Re: The ride of 80s anime art

Post by Kuwabara » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:30 am

I believe it was fan displeasure/burnout associated with Tadayoshi Yamamuro's character designs over the years combined with his somewhat green sense of film direction in Resurrection F. The powers that be simply felt that it was time for a different take. Broly's visual switch happening after the recent upsurge in popularity surrounding city pop/vaporwave and their iconography seems to be a happy coincidence.

I would also question the connection anyway... The original Broly movie came out in 1993, and the newest film seems to allude most to that general era of DBZ art styles. From what I've seen, apart from Sailor Moon for whatever reason, those musical genres seem more preoccupied with homages to 80s properties like Bubblegum Crisis, Kimagure Orange Road, Urusei Yatsura etc.

Those genres also emphasize a lot of pinks and purples, my Broly Blu-ray has a green tint! :P
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Re: The ride of 80s anime art

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:33 am

I agree that it's a happy co-incidence. Yamamuro's art style is very geometrical and rigid, which doesn't combine well with the rigid posing, not to mention he's been sliding to less expressive body and facial posing. Shintani is more of DBZs classical style, and being less detailed means the characters are faster to draw and it's not as noticeable when they're Off Model.

I feel that because of those reasons, Shintani's style is both more relaxed to try and match, and gets that classic DBZ nostalgic look that Super is so desperately trying to make money off of. Plus it just looks like a more quality product, so that's a triple win for Toei.

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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by Desassina » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:48 am

I thought of DBS: Broly as a rare attempt at an old style that won't stay for long and will probably get replaced by models in the future. It's severely lacking in consistency, which models can do quite effortlessly, and they can be textured with spots for Cell :wink:

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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by Vijay » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:49 pm

Desassina wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:48 am
I thought of DBS: Broly as a rare attempt at an old style that won't stay for long and will probably get replaced by models in the future. It's severely lacking in consistency, which models can do quite effortlessly, and they can be textured with spots for Cell :wink:
This. THIS!!!!
Barring Yuya Takahashi portions, none of the artistry or animation of DBS looked remotely beautiful to look at
Lacked consistency of even 1993's Broly film & the CGI was even horrendrous compared to BOG/ROF CGI
As said, its just one-film wonder & it'll probably be forgotten or replaced in future by newer artsyle.

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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:08 am

Vijay wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:49 pm
Desassina wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:48 am
I thought of DBS: Broly as a rare attempt at an old style that won't stay for long and will probably get replaced by models in the future. It's severely lacking in consistency, which models can do quite effortlessly, and they can be textured with spots for Cell :wink:
This. THIS!!!!
Barring Yuya Takahashi portions, none of the artistry or animation of DBS looked remotely beautiful to look at
Lacked consistency of even 1993's Broly film & the CGI was even horrendrous compared to BOG/ROF CGI
As said, its just one-film wonder & it'll probably be forgotten or replaced in future by newer artsyle.
First off(referring to Desassina), what exactly do you mean like models? Like, in context, in sounds like you're referring to the implementation of CGI. Not to mention, consistency was never the strong suit of the TV anime when it came to art or animation, so I don't REALLY see what the push is for a uniform art or animation style. Not to mention, I don't really get the Cell comment, since digital tools are used anyway that allow for spots to be coloured(I believe you may have taken a quote made jokingly, I think by Masaki Sato, out of context). In other words, what are you saying?

In reference to Vijay, I agree, the most beautiful moment of the film was in Yuya Takahashi's section. Namely Ryo Onishi's absolutely absurd nearly 4 and half minute character acting, effects action extravaganza. Seriously, its easily the best animated cut in the entire franchise bar none by an absurd margin. Nothing compares to it in terms of either length or quality. mentioning this scene, partially because its the best one in Takahashi's segment by a mile, but also because its the only scene in his section that is not corrected by him.
Also going to point out, the 93 Broly wasn't exactly the most consistent thing either. Yeah, you had a pretty strong key over arching art style, but there was still plenty of variation and finesse in terms of the action scenes themselves. Also, again, what is with your push towards uniformity? I hardly remember uniformity being the strong point of DBZ back in the day.

Also, worth pointing out, while I don't think the CGI in Broly was good, it was definitely a step up from its usage in BOG and ROF, especially the latter, which used crap looking CGI for nearly half its total action sequences.

Personally, though we haven't seen anything new, I don't think anything suggests that we'll be leaving the stylistic look that Shintani has bought to the series, especially with his style apparently becoming only more prevalent in things like merchandise and the such. I very much doubt we'd go back to Yamamuro, considering we just left that.

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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by Vijay » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:27 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:08 am
Vijay wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:49 pm
Desassina wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:48 am
I thought of DBS: Broly as a rare attempt at an old style that won't stay for long and will probably get replaced by models in the future. It's severely lacking in consistency, which models can do quite effortlessly, and they can be textured with spots for Cell :wink:
This. THIS!!!!
Barring Yuya Takahashi portions, none of the artistry or animation of DBS looked remotely beautiful to look at
Lacked consistency of even 1993's Broly film & the CGI was even horrendrous compared to BOG/ROF CGI
As said, its just one-film wonder & it'll probably be forgotten or replaced in future by newer artsyle.
First off(referring to Desassina), what exactly do you mean like models? Like, in context, in sounds like you're referring to the implementation of CGI. Not to mention, consistency was never the strong suit of the TV anime when it came to art or animation, so I don't REALLY see what the push is for a uniform art or animation style. Not to mention, I don't really get the Cell comment, since digital tools are used anyway that allow for spots to be coloured(I believe you may have taken a quote made jokingly, I think by Masaki Sato, out of context). In other words, what are you saying?

In reference to Vijay, I agree, the most beautiful moment of the film was in Yuya Takahashi's section. Namely Ryo Onishi's absolutely absurd nearly 4 and half minute character acting, effects action extravaganza. Seriously, its easily the best animated cut in the entire franchise bar none by an absurd margin. Nothing compares to it in terms of either length or quality. mentioning this scene, partially because its the best one in Takahashi's segment by a mile, but also because its the only scene in his section that is not corrected by him.
Also going to point out, the 93 Broly wasn't exactly the most consistent thing either. Yeah, you had a pretty strong key over arching art style, but there was still plenty of variation and finesse in terms of the action scenes themselves. Also, again, what is with your push towards uniformity? I hardly remember uniformity being the strong point of DBZ back in the day.

Also, worth pointing out, while I don't think the CGI in Broly was good, it was definitely a step up from its usage in BOG and ROF, especially the latter, which used crap looking CGI for nearly half its total action sequences.

Personally, though we haven't seen anything new, I don't think anything suggests that we'll be leaving the stylistic look that Shintani has bought to the series, especially with his style apparently becoming only more prevalent in things like merchandise and the such. I very much doubt we'd go back to Yamamuro, considering we just left that.
I like your polite, yet detailed way of responding. To answer regarding consistency though, I hope you do realize M8 Broly could be considered landmark DBZ film for consistently good looking animation/art work throughout its 80 mins runtime, paving way for M9 till M13

M7 Android 13 film had downright horrible artwork and animation consistency, and its bizzare to think how once Tadayoshi Yamamuro was in-charge of M8 and it sets up an entirely different standard in just 1 film

DBS Broly lacked the punch which previous 3 Z trilogies had. Maybe its the storyboarding. Or the talented animators. Or the choreography

Truth was the artsyle and animation (once again, barring yuya takashi's) has been underwhelming and I was against Shintani since Day 1. While most criticized Tadayoshi's "balance" and "banana hair" and "stiff model", I knew if only slight correction was made as to returnin to prime Z form Yamamuro, all would be settled.

Yet Shintani with "flamboyant" and "free-flowing" artsyle gave me TB patient Goku & mostly off-model looking lanky hero

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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by emperior » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:38 pm

Vijay wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:27 am
Yet Shintani with "flamboyant" and "free-flowing" artsyle gave me TB patient Goku & mostly off-model looking lanky hero
That’s funny because Goku actually looked more muscular in this movie than he has been since the 90s apart from some rare instances.

He also wasn’t mostly off model. If we have to be precise, Takahashi’s corrections were off-models.
Maybe you are mistaking “on-model Goku” with “ideal Goku”. For me Goku hasn’t looked as good as he did in this movie for a long time. And his character model by Shintani is the best design we ever got for Goku in an animated product in my opinion.

Luckily the new art style they crafted with Toriyama for this movie will stay.
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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by Vijay » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:04 pm

emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:38 pm
Vijay wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:27 am
Yet Shintani with "flamboyant" and "free-flowing" artsyle gave me TB patient Goku & mostly off-model looking lanky hero
That’s funny because Goku actually looked more muscular in this movie than he has been since the 90s apart from some rare instances.

He also wasn’t mostly off model. If we have to be precise, Takahashi’s corrections were off-models.
Maybe you are mistaking “on-model Goku” with “ideal Goku”. For me Goku hasn’t looked as good as he did in this movie for a long time. And his character model by Shintani is the best design we ever got for Goku in an animated product in my opinion.

Luckily the new art style they crafted with Toriyama for this movie will stay.
Strongly disagree. If looking emaciated, cachexic, muscular atrophied is considered "muscular" for ya, peace upon you brother.

I'm baffled at what you're sayin. Goku from Android Arc~Boo Arc muscularly built, drawn by AT & its model has been used since 90's. I wouldnt be shocked if you argue that Luffy or Naruto or Ichigo are muscular characters😂😂😂

Oh well. You brushed off even Takahashi's design as off-model.

Shintani has only reverted back to Saiyan/Namek Arc artsyle. That too by sacrificing art in favor of animation. DBZ Episode 21-28 from Saiyan Arc would basically put Shintani's work to shame, particularly episodes worked by Masaki Sato & Shimanuki

Its funny cuz even in Saiyan Arc itself, Kaioken X3 Goku had frickin largely built physique. Are ya gonna say those were off-models as well?

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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:12 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:08 am
Also, worth pointing out, while I don't think the CGI in Broly was good, it was definitely a step up from its usage in BOG and ROF, especially the latter, which used crap looking CGI for nearly half its total action sequences.
It can look good when done the right way. In the clip you posted, for example, an early section where they fight in mid-air actually looks rather convincing, because the icy peaks actually LOOK like the normal painted backgrounds we're used to anime being set against. Later on is when we see the bad CGI: not only does it make absolutely no effort to blend in with the traditional animation, it's also rendered at the full 24fps. This contrasts really badly with the traditionally-animated stuff which is done at 12fps, which you can see really clearly in the shot where the camera pulls out of the Frieza saucers as it takes off at the end of the video. It just baffles me why people continually accept this crap in anime.

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Re: The rise of 80s anime art

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:24 am

Vijay wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:27 am
JazzMazz wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:08 am
Vijay wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:49 pm


This. THIS!!!!
Barring Yuya Takahashi portions, none of the artistry or animation of DBS looked remotely beautiful to look at
Lacked consistency of even 1993's Broly film & the CGI was even horrendrous compared to BOG/ROF CGI
As said, its just one-film wonder & it'll probably be forgotten or replaced in future by newer artsyle.
First off(referring to Desassina), what exactly do you mean like models? Like, in context, in sounds like you're referring to the implementation of CGI. Not to mention, consistency was never the strong suit of the TV anime when it came to art or animation, so I don't REALLY see what the push is for a uniform art or animation style. Not to mention, I don't really get the Cell comment, since digital tools are used anyway that allow for spots to be coloured(I believe you may have taken a quote made jokingly, I think by Masaki Sato, out of context). In other words, what are you saying?

In reference to Vijay, I agree, the most beautiful moment of the film was in Yuya Takahashi's section. Namely Ryo Onishi's absolutely absurd nearly 4 and half minute character acting, effects action extravaganza. Seriously, its easily the best animated cut in the entire franchise bar none by an absurd margin. Nothing compares to it in terms of either length or quality. mentioning this scene, partially because its the best one in Takahashi's segment by a mile, but also because its the only scene in his section that is not corrected by him.
Also going to point out, the 93 Broly wasn't exactly the most consistent thing either. Yeah, you had a pretty strong key over arching art style, but there was still plenty of variation and finesse in terms of the action scenes themselves. Also, again, what is with your push towards uniformity? I hardly remember uniformity being the strong point of DBZ back in the day.

Also, worth pointing out, while I don't think the CGI in Broly was good, it was definitely a step up from its usage in BOG and ROF, especially the latter, which used crap looking CGI for nearly half its total action sequences.

Personally, though we haven't seen anything new, I don't think anything suggests that we'll be leaving the stylistic look that Shintani has bought to the series, especially with his style apparently becoming only more prevalent in things like merchandise and the such. I very much doubt we'd go back to Yamamuro, considering we just left that.
I like your polite, yet detailed way of responding. To answer regarding consistency though, I hope you do realize M8 Broly could be considered landmark DBZ film for consistently good looking animation/art work throughout its 80 mins runtime, paving way for M9 till M13

M7 Android 13 film had downright horrible artwork and animation consistency, and its bizzare to think how once Tadayoshi Yamamuro was in-charge of M8 and it sets up an entirely different standard in just 1 film

DBS Broly lacked the punch which previous 3 Z trilogies had. Maybe its the storyboarding. Or the talented animators. Or the choreography

Truth was the artsyle and animation (once again, barring yuya takashi's) has been underwhelming and I was against Shintani since Day 1. While most criticized Tadayoshi's "balance" and "banana hair" and "stiff model", I knew if only slight correction was made as to returnin to prime Z form Yamamuro, all would be settled.

Yet Shintani with "flamboyant" and "free-flowing" artsyle gave me TB patient Goku & mostly off-model looking lanky hero
I wouldn't really consider the first Broly Movie a particular land mark animation or art wise. I think easily the most notable things about the film were the Atypical initial plot structure and the invigorating direction of Shigeyasu Yamamuchi. In saying this, I do think the highlight of the film animation wise holds up quite well, and is definitely a highlight of their career.
Oh yeah, about the lacking the punch, hells no. The action in DBS was STUPIDLY impactful the overwhelming majority of the time. I would say probably the weakest bit of action animation in that movie was Yuichi Karasawa's section during Vegeta vs Broly(which probably would have benefitted from stronger tweening).
The action in Broly, for the most part was far and away more impactful than anything the franchise has ever seen in animation. The reasons why are simple, the animation itself was more robust and technically complicated not only in its use of the principles of animation, but also in scenes have incredible timing and robust technical aspects(not to mention the insane expressiveness found in many of the action scenes) that blow even that first Broly movie scene out of the water. This was all due to the movie actually effectively using some of the most noteworthy animators around for great effect.
I don't really understand what you mean by underwhelming? Also, again, I don't even get your "off model" remarks, since Shintani is literally the model sheets, and he literally just modelled himself after Toriyama when he was at his peak art wise(ei, the Saiyan/Namek arcs).

Also, the problem with Yamamuro's models were fundamental, and earned him a lot of scorn from even fellow members in the industry. I find that fact striking, considering how typically respectful Japanese culture demands people to be in public. To have members of the industry voice public distaste goes to show they weren't very well liked, and for good reason. Yamamuro, in his modern career, couldn't draw good Dragonball. It was completely removed from any of Toriyama's styles, and were just bad character designs, as they didn't adhere to even the most fundamental idea's and principals around creating character designs for animation.

The reason why fans and people in the industry jumped into the Shintani boat, was not only was he more faithful to Toriyama, but also because his approach to animation was actually feasible and took into consideration movement, as opposed to just being static models.
Vijay wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:04 pm
emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:38 pm
Vijay wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:27 am
Yet Shintani with "flamboyant" and "free-flowing" artsyle gave me TB patient Goku & mostly off-model looking lanky hero
That’s funny because Goku actually looked more muscular in this movie than he has been since the 90s apart from some rare instances.

He also wasn’t mostly off model. If we have to be precise, Takahashi’s corrections were off-models.
Maybe you are mistaking “on-model Goku” with “ideal Goku”. For me Goku hasn’t looked as good as he did in this movie for a long time. And his character model by Shintani is the best design we ever got for Goku in an animated product in my opinion.

Luckily the new art style they crafted with Toriyama for this movie will stay.
Strongly disagree. If looking emaciated, cachexic, muscular atrophied is considered "muscular" for ya, peace upon you brother.

I'm baffled at what you're sayin. Goku from Android Arc~Boo Arc muscularly built, drawn by AT & its model has been used since 90's. I wouldnt be shocked if you argue that Luffy or Naruto or Ichigo are muscular characters😂😂😂

Oh well. You brushed off even Takahashi's design as off-model.

Shintani has only reverted back to Saiyan/Namek Arc artsyle. That too by sacrificing art in favor of animation. DBZ Episode 21-28 from Saiyan Arc would basically put Shintani's work to shame, particularly episodes worked by Masaki Sato & Shimanuki
Its funny cuz even in Saiyan Arc itself, Kaioken X3 Goku had frickin largely built physique. Are ya gonna say those were off-models as well?
The thing is, Goku doesn't look "emaciated, cachexic, muscular atrophied" at all. He looks, buff, but normal. The film intentionally goes out of its way to highlight that Goku and Vegeta still have that peak physique(hell, when Gogeta is first revealed, the first thing he see him do is showing off his beef). I wouldn't say that Goku and Vegeta were any less muscular in this movie than they were in say the android saga. Just because the muscles aren't as rigidly defined linework worse, doesn't mean there is a lack of muscle mass. It just means the muscles are drawn less boxy, and square, and have more natural muscle shapes.
Hell, the same thing happened for Golden Freeza.
And Broly, even when relaxing, and in his regular state is always just stupidly buff, not really any different for Goku and Vegeta.

Also, yes, Takahashi's style was widely off model in the movie. A lot of the time his style was fairly reined in(with the levels of detail growing in the build up to the fight quite nicely to complement the tension), but a lot of his more detailed corrections were off model. They were off model under Yamamuro's vision as well. Off model only means it has noticeable deviations from the model sheets. Its not inherently a bad thing. No one is saying muscle is bad, Shintani's designs are plenty beefy, the discrepancy you seem fixated on is a certain ideal of how muscle should be drawn.

Shintani has not sacrificed art. The art if anything, is stronger now under his tutelage than it was under Yamamuro. Seriously, the covers he draws to the stuff Yamamuro drew. Shintani's are pretty much invariably more interesting, complex and competent drawings than Yamamuro's.

I'll put it mildly for you about those episodes. No. They don't. Yes, that is a pretty solid stretch of episodes. But no, they don't compare to the insane stuff we saw in the movie, and I think its a bit disingenuous to suggest that it really does compare. As large a fan I was of guys like Masahiro Shimanuki, they were very much limited by the time and type of show that Dragonball Z was trying to be. Those limitations didn't really apply to the movies.

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