Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

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Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:35 pm

I know that Resurrection ‘F’ is old news at this point, but it always seemed like the most talked about point of the film is the ending, where Goku “steals” Vegeta’s kill. Now, I’ve said this in the past, but I think RF is a pretty lousy movie. To me, it’s basically just shallow fan service and boring exposition crammed into 90 minutes. With that said, as far as the general fandom is concerned, the most consistent complaint about the movie seems to be that Vegeta should’ve been the one to kill Freeza. Personally, I don’t get that.

I guess the general gist of the argument is that Vegeta deserves to have the honor of killing Freeza, because he’s the one who has a personal history with Freeza that goes all the way back to when he was a child, and that he should be the one to get revenge on him. The thing is, while Vegeta does indeed have a personal vendetta against Freeza, I can’t say I agree that he “deserves” revenge on him. By all accounts, Vegeta was hardly any better than Freeza when he served under him. He was a sadistic murderer who had no regards for anyone, not even his own comrades. With that in mind, I can’t exactly say that I felt sorry Vegeta. Sure, Freeza killed Vegeta’s father along with the rest of his race, but Vegeta didn’t care about that. He was mad that he had to take orders from Freeza, not that Freeza wiped out the Saiyans. Vegeta wasn’t out to avenge his race, he was out to avenge himself.

Personally, I don’t see why Vegeta is anymore deserving of killing Freeza than someone like Kuririn or Piccolo.

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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:55 pm

Revival of F to me was more fanservice for foreign DBZ fans as a lot of people who grew up with toonami z hated the dragonball goofyness of battle of gods.

But I think vegetas deserving to kill frieza made sence when he was all about saiyain pride. And trunks ended up killing him anyway so there's that too

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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:08 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:35 pm
While Vegeta does indeed have a personal vendetta against Freeza, I can’t say I agree that he “deserves” revenge on him. By all accounts, Vegeta was hardly any better than Freeza when he served under him. He was a sadistic murderer who had no regards for anyone, not even his own comrades. With that in mind, I can’t exactly say that I felt sorry Vegeta. Sure, Freeza killed Vegeta’s father along with the rest of his race, but Vegeta didn’t care about that. He was mad that he had to take orders from Freeza, not that Freeza wiped out the Saiyans. Vegeta wasn’t out to avenge his race, he was out to avenge himself.

Personally, I don’t see why Vegeta is anymore deserving of killing Freeza than someone like Kuririn or Piccolo.
There's an element of patriotism/nationalist pride in Vegeta, in addition to his warrior's ego. Vegeta was going to be the king of the world Frieza destroyed, keep in mind Freeza destroyed the Saiyans because he was paranoid that they'd create a warrior who could surpass his power. Vegeta as royalty is a representative of his race, and so feels the burden stronger because of his position, the more so because his race is now a handful of (in his own view) nutjobs.

"Spend most of your life ruled by another, watch your race dwindle to a handful, and then tell me what has more meaning than your own STRENGTH! I have in me the blood of a Saiyan prince! He is nothing but a joke! Yet I've had to watch him surpass me in strength! My destiny, thrown to the wayside! He's... he's even saved my life as if I were a helpless child. He has stolen my honor! And his debts MUST, BE, PAID!"


In terms of drama, Vegeta's connection to Freeza is the strongest. Whether that makes him more deserving than Krillin, who was personally killed by Frieza, is a matter of opinion.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:14 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:08 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:35 pm
While Vegeta does indeed have a personal vendetta against Freeza, I can’t say I agree that he “deserves” revenge on him. By all accounts, Vegeta was hardly any better than Freeza when he served under him. He was a sadistic murderer who had no regards for anyone, not even his own comrades. With that in mind, I can’t exactly say that I felt sorry Vegeta. Sure, Freeza killed Vegeta’s father along with the rest of his race, but Vegeta didn’t care about that. He was mad that he had to take orders from Freeza, not that Freeza wiped out the Saiyans. Vegeta wasn’t out to avenge his race, he was out to avenge himself.

Personally, I don’t see why Vegeta is anymore deserving of killing Freeza than someone like Kuririn or Piccolo.
There's an element of patriotism/nationalist pride in Vegeta, in addition to his warrior's ego. Vegeta was going to be the king of the world Frieza destroyed, keep in mind Freeza destroyed the Saiyans because he was paranoid that they'd create a warrior who could surpass his power. Vegeta as royalty is a representative of his race, and so feels the burden stronger because of his position, the more so because his race is now a handful of (in his own view) nutjobs.

"Spend most of your life ruled by another, watch your race dwindle to a handful, and then tell me what has more meaning than your own STRENGTH! I have in me the blood of a Saiyan prince! He is nothing but a joke! Yet I've had to watch him surpass me in strength! My destiny, thrown to the wayside! He's... he's even saved my life as if I were a helpless child. He has stolen my honor! And his debts MUST, BE, PAID!"


In terms of drama, Vegeta's connection to Freeza is the strongest. Whether that makes him more deserving than Krillin, who was personally killed by Frieza, is a matter of opinion.
Vegeta was killed by Freeza as well, but I don’t think that makes much of a difference. I won’t argue that Vegeta has a strong personal connection to Freeza, but I can’t side with the idea that he deserves the “honor” of killing Freeza, when he was no better than he was back in the day. Freeza obviously wronged a bunch of innocent beings throughout his lifetime(s), but the Saiyans were not among them.

I do agree that given Freeza’s attitude towards the Saiyan race, it does make thematic sense for a Saiyan to be what brings about his downfall, but I don’t see why Vegeta has to be that Saiyan. If anything, I’d argue that Goku being the one to defeat him is much more ironic, given that Goku was a low class nobody who acts as the perfect foil to Freeza.

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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:57 pm

Also, Vegeta wasn't a good guy the first time he fought Freeza and by the time Freeza came back, any need for vengeance was gone. Freeza had been defeated twice by then.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:05 pm

i wonder if this has anything to do with how the dub handled vegeta's death, with the whole him acting like freeza made him into a bad guy and all that stuff. because yeah i don't really get this either, it's not like vegeta hated freeza for any other reason that he was stronger than him, so i don't think i would've made much sense narratively.

also i think it was just some fans wanting vegeta too defeat a major villain XP
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:21 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:14 pm
I do agree that given Freeza’s attitude towards the Saiyan race, it does make thematic sense for a Saiyan to be what brings about his downfall, but I don’t see why Vegeta has to be that Saiyan. If anything, I’d argue that Goku being the one to defeat him is much more ironic, given that Goku was a low class nobody who acts as the perfect foil to Freeza.
Goku was the one who did it, Vegeta is the one who wanted to do it and who in terms of narrative convention should have done it. Consider the irony an example of Akira Toriyama defying narrative conventions.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:43 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:21 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:14 pm
I do agree that given Freeza’s attitude towards the Saiyan race, it does make thematic sense for a Saiyan to be what brings about his downfall, but I don’t see why Vegeta has to be that Saiyan. If anything, I’d argue that Goku being the one to defeat him is much more ironic, given that Goku was a low class nobody who acts as the perfect foil to Freeza.
Goku was the one who did it, Vegeta is the one who wanted to do it and who in terms of narrative convention should have done it. Consider the irony an example of Akira Toriyama defying narrative conventions.
Is it really defying narrative convention when the central protagonist defeats the antagonist?
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:15 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:43 pm
Is it really defying narrative convention when the central protagonist defeats the antagonist?
Subverting convention sounds a better phrase.

In a traditional story, the prince of the oppressed and slain world would have the most right to kill the tyrant behind the deed. But the prince just isn't the central protagonist in this story.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:33 am

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:15 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:43 pm
Is it really defying narrative convention when the central protagonist defeats the antagonist?
Subverting convention sounds a better phrase.

In a traditional story, the prince of the oppressed and slain world would have the most right to kill the tyrant behind the deed. But the prince just isn't the central protagonist in this story.
It's just as traditional that the protagonist defeats the antagonist. Besides, he Saiyans weren't oppressed. They were oppressors. Nothing indicates they were anything other than willing participants in the mass slaughter of countless civilizations.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:36 am

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:15 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:43 pm
Is it really defying narrative convention when the central protagonist defeats the antagonist?
Subverting convention sounds a better phrase.

In a traditional story, the prince of the oppressed and slain world would have the most right to kill the tyrant behind the deed. But the prince just isn't the central protagonist in this story.

What traditional story?

Abed is right. Having the main protagonist defeat the antagonist is pretty conventional. Nothing is being subverted here.

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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:38 am

ABED wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:33 am
It's just as traditional that the protagonist defeats the antagonist. Besides, the Saiyans weren't oppressed. They were oppressors. Nothing indicates they were anything other than willing participants in the mass slaughter of countless civilizations.
I agree with all this. I'm just saying is that Vegeta felt he had the most and best right as Prince of his home to kill Freeza.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:54 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:38 am
ABED wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:33 am
It's just as traditional that the protagonist defeats the antagonist. Besides, the Saiyans weren't oppressed. They were oppressors. Nothing indicates they were anything other than willing participants in the mass slaughter of countless civilizations.
I agree with all this. I'm just saying is that Vegeta felt he had the most and best right as Prince of his home to kill Freeza.
Sure, Vegeta felt that, but he also felt he was the one who had the divine right to become a Super Saiyan.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by funrush » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:06 pm

Vegeta deserves the revenge more than Goku because Vegeta was basically enslaved by Freeza. I doubt Vegeta was allowed to just, quit, considering Freeza's fears about potential Super Saiyans. Freeza'd want all of them under his thumb, wearing scouters so he can keep track of them.

Not to mention the fact that Freeza killed Vegeta's father, and entire planet, and stripped away his royalty. Made him the "prince of nothing". Combine that with Vegeta's Saiyan Pride, and yeah, Vegeta getting to beat the shit out of Freeza is something Vegeta fans would absolutely want.

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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 pm

The Saiyans weren't enslaved. Also, Vegeta cared so little for his own teammates and his father, so it's not exactly an open wound for him. I'm sure Vegeta fans do want him to get "pay back", but they seem to forget, Vegeta was hardly an innocent victim. He was the member of a gang that got killed for an ill-advised coup.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:32 pm

funrush wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:06 pm
Vegeta deserves the revenge more than Goku because Vegeta was basically enslaved by Freeza. I doubt Vegeta was allowed to just, quit, considering Freeza's fears about potential Super Saiyans. Freeza'd want all of them under his thumb, wearing scouters so he can keep track of them.

Not to mention the fact that Freeza killed Vegeta's father, and entire planet, and stripped away his royalty. Made him the "prince of nothing". Combine that with Vegeta's Saiyan Pride, and yeah, Vegeta getting to beat the shit out of Freeza is something Vegeta fans would absolutely want.
But Vegeta didn’t care that Freeza killed his father and the rest of the Saiyans. He was mad that he had to take orders from Freeza. As a matter of fact, from what we can tell, Vegeta seems to have been bad even by Saiyan standards. Not only did he immediately shoot down the idea of reviving Raditz, but he gleefully killed Nappa simply for getting injured, which is something the latter clearly wasn’t expecting. Sure, you could say that he was basically Freeza’s slave, but considering the kind of person he was, it’s difficult to feel sorry for him.

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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:47 pm

vegeta's whole thing in the freeza arc is that he's a strong asshole who's upset that freeza is the strongest asshole, it's not based off of any revenge or anything like that, vegeta makes it pretty clear that he doesn't care about his people.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:47 pm
vegeta's whole thing in the freeza arc is that he's a strong asshole who's upset that freeza is the strongest asshole, it's not based off of any revenge or anything like that, vegeta makes it pretty clear that he doesn't care about his people.
I'm pretty sure that was all "tough guy" and he let loose his real emotions when he realized he was going to die and the Dragon Balls wouldn't be there to bring him back.

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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:35 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:47 pm
vegeta's whole thing in the freeza arc is that he's a strong asshole who's upset that freeza is the strongest asshole, it's not based off of any revenge or anything like that, vegeta makes it pretty clear that he doesn't care about his people.
I'm pretty sure that was all "tough guy" and he let loose his real emotions when he realized he was going to die and the Dragon Balls wouldn't be there to bring him back.
Or he is what he always was regardless of an emotional outburst when he's about to die. Vegeta had shown over and over that he doesn't care about his people. There were only 4 pure blood Saiyans left, including himself and he didn't care that one of them died, killed the next, and tried to kill the other.
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Re: Does anyone else not get the argument that Vegeta “deserves” to kill Freeza?

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:45 pm

Does Vegeta deserve to kill Frieza for what Frieza did to him?
Who cares at this point? Clearly Vegeta didn't and it's been ages since that all happened. No one cares.

Does Vegeta deserve to kill Frieza because he never gets to finish off major opponents?
Yes. Absolutely.

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