Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

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Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Jord » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:48 pm

What was acceptable in the past isn't necessarily acceptable today. While Dragon Ball and Z are great series in itself with great animation and fights there are some nasty points sticking out. From pedohilic tendencies of Muten Roshi to worse cases like how LGBT characters like General Blue and Otokosuki (ugh) are handled. I was recently rewatching the series with my friends, some of them being part of the LGBT community and while we enjoyed the series, every time subject as those mentioned came up it became painful how outdated and awkward those segments are in 2019. As a society we've moved on from seeing LGBT+ people as 'funny' and 'strange' so the media should reflect that instead of reinforcing outdated thoughts and stereotypes.

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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:59 pm

They had an opportunity to do that: a "new" product called Dragon Ball Kai. (Granted, Kai never really hit the grossest of the content in question.)

They also had a chance to do that from scratch: a genuinely entirely new product called Dragon Ball Super.

One needs only take a cursory glance through Super episode 89 to see they don't care.

Kanzenshuu as an entity run by its administrative team absolutely 100% does not condone the removal or editing of content from existing products. Instead, we are all about context: explain what it is, why it was, who was involved, what's changed, and what a proper view on it through the lens of time could be knowing all that we know now.

It's not like you can ever get rid of the old content considering how many printings it's gotten across so many countries. Don't change the old stuff; explain it. Warner Bros. "... to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed" bumper is more eloquent than it has any right to be.

Dragon Ball is old. It's going to take some explaining, and it's OK if not everyone sees it or enjoys it.

(And don't mistake any of that for excusing it. Dende knows we've taken this series to task for less.)
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:00 pm

While I understand and don't begrudge you or your friends your views on it, censoring is never the right answer in regards to things like this. If nothing else though, they could perhaps go with a warning menu or the like on releases that feature those particular episodes. WB has the right idea with a message on a few collections of their older cartoons -

Image

- and I can never find a video link, but a collection of older Mickey Mouse shorts from Disney has a similar message in video form from a notable Hollywood historian.

Edit: Ninja-ed by Mike, wouldn't you know it. :lol: He puts it better than I did at any rate though.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by gokaiblue » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:22 pm

Like others had said, censoring past content because of modern sensibilities is not something that should be done. I'm of the mind that we should not judge the past through a modern lense. In many cases, we didn't even think like them.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:32 pm

The folly of censorship aside how would they go about this? Edit out General Blue entirely? Re-record lines? Do a Kai-style Frankenstein monster job with redrawn scenes? And while we're at it, edit Mr. Popo, Officer Black, and Killa's appearances too?

You see where I'm getting at.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by Mosaic » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:32 pm

Hey, gay man here.

I think moving forward, they should move away from it. I mean, it's not like the offensive LGBT jokes were a core of the series. However, the content from the previous series shouldn't be erased. If anything, *maybe* put a disclaimer up, but you have to view these as products of their time. While the General Blue stuff annoys me, I realize it was a different time and culture. If they put something like that in Super however... I'd be pissed.

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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:51 pm

No they shouldn't, we're talking about series that are over to just over thirty years old now. They should remain as they are even if some things presented in them (General Blue.etc) don't necessarily align with modern views on the same topics because retroactively censoring them does nothing, and we've already had that happen in the case of old cartoons from the Golden era of animation like Tom & Jerry and some Looney Tunes shorts. True, there are no doubt things that are indeed objectionable at times in the original series/DBZ but taking the censorship axe to them is not the answer.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by Shaddy » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:55 pm

We should focus on getting new DB content to be less horrible, not changing old stuff.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by coola » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:01 pm

No, I'm against revisionism in any form, small note like with Looney Tunes DVD, sure..but no censorship.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by PhoenixEX » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:07 pm

The Warner Brothers route is the way to go. I don't think that outright censorship is something that should be considered.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:16 pm

I agree, the WB method is the best.

That said, if there is ever a Kai version of OG Dragon Ball, since it's a new product and the preservation arguement is moot, I'll be a little upset if they don't remove the scene of General Blue creeping on Obotchaman.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:25 pm

i don't think that scene would be in a "manga edit" of the original dragon ball anyhow. yes the penguin village as a whole is really different in the anime compared to manga, but i imagine they would probably cut a lot of scenes and keep it as close as they can. definitely won't happen but yeah.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:36 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:25 pm
i don't think that scene would be in a "manga edit" of the original dragon ball anyhow. yes the penguin village as a whole is really different in the anime compared to manga, but i imagine they would probably cut a lot of scenes and keep it as close as they can. definitely won't happen but yeah.
Well given how Kai TFC turned out I don't trust Toei's ability to cut filler anymore to be honest.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:43 pm

Gay man here too. I dont want Dragon Ball to be censored. Unless its an edited airing meant for kids and not the DVD's.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:52 pm

Speaking of the infamous General Blue scene, I'm curious - how would people feel if, in a potential Kai-ifying of the original DB (which isn't going to happen at this point really, but just for the point of argument here), they kept the scene but re-wrote the dialogue to the scene somehow or another? Think like how the dub, even in the uncut version, went with him thinking Obatchaman was his long lost brother. In the case of a "brand new" product like a DB Kai, would that be considered censorship really? Or would it be a new take entirely?
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:43 pm
Gay man here too. I dont want Dragon Ball to be censored. Unless its an edited airing meant for kids and not the DVD's.
Bolded/underlining mine for emphasis. That's something I hadn't really thought of either. I'm fine with editing/censoring things for airing on TV if it's on a kid's channel, or even a censored home release like the old VHS tapes of DB/Z/GT had, in-so-far as there's also an equally uncut version also released, even if it has to be sub-only. Edits to get more kids into anime are fine, just so long as the rest of us aren't left hanging with no uncut version.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:11 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:52 pm
Bolded/underlining mine for emphasis. That's something I hadn't really thought of either. I'm fine with editing/censoring things for airing on TV if it's on a kid's channel, or even a censored home release like the old VHS tapes of DB/Z/GT had, in-so-far as there's also an equally uncut version also released, even if it has to be sub-only. Edits to get more kids into anime are fine, just so long as the rest of us aren't left hanging with no uncut version.
yeah, and really that's my whole view on censorship to media, and really just changes to media in general. if you wanna make a change to a scene or whatever to make it more accessible to a wider audience or to make it so it's consistent with the later material, sure go ahead, just as long the original version is still (widely) available in some way. it's when those changes become the only way to experience something and the original version is basically lost is when i think there's a issue.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:15 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:52 pm
Speaking of the infamous General Blue scene, I'm curious - how would people feel if, in a potential Kai-ifying of the original DB (which isn't going to happen at this point really, but just for the point of argument here), they kept the scene but re-wrote the dialogue to the scene somehow or another? Think like how the dub, even in the uncut version, went with him thinking Obatchaman was his long lost brother.
I've always felt that Funi's attempt to fix that scene made it worse, since the implication was still obvious because of the animation. So, nothing like that please.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:24 pm

As a trans woman who is pansexual I don't want censoring of old works, that's tantamount to erasure. We need to keep these things to remind us of the horrible actions humanity has done so as not to repeat ourselves.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:49 pm

I think it's important to remember, too, that Toei is a Japanese company. I'm not saying anti-LGBT content is right, but I am saying that, on a cultural level, what offends American audiences doesn't necessarily offend Japanese audiences, and vice versa. So I don't think Toei was actively trying to be offensive, they were just operating from a Japanese way of thinking because, well...that's their natural way of thinking, considering they are Japanese. So, I respectfully think that censorship and editing isn't the way to go.

It would also set a weird precedent going forward about what they would and wouldn't have to edit. I mean, in the Arabic dub of DBZ, all instances of saiyans turning into oozarus are censored because those in charge of the censoring decided that those scenes amounted to promoting Darwin's Theory of Evolution, which many in the Arabic world are opposed to on religious grounds. Instead, those scenes are edited (very poorly) to imply that, in the presence of a full moon, saiyans "summon" oozarus rather than transforming into them. So does Toei now have to edit out the transformation scenes themselves to avoid offending audiences in Arabic countries? What about France? Italy? Spain? Germany? Thailand? Canada? Brazil? Mexico? The U.S.?

....That'd just get messy and confusing, which is exactly censorship decisions with dubs are left up to dubbing companies on a case-by-case, country-by-country basis.
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Re: Future DB(Z) releases should be edited for it's painfully outdated LBTG+ content

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:50 pm

I think it's important to remember, too, that Toei is a Japanese company. I'm not saying anti-LGBT content is right, but I am saying that, on a cultural level, what offends American audiences doesn't necessarily offend Japanese audiences, and vice versa. Political correctness, for example, is generally not nearly as big a concern to them as it is to other countries. So I don't think Toei was actively trying to be offensive, they were just operating from a Japanese way of thinking because, well...that's their natural way of thinking, considering they are Japanese. So, I respectfully think that censorship and editing isn't the way to go.

It would also set a weird precedent going forward about what they would and wouldn't have to edit. I mean, in the Arabic dub of DBZ, all instances of saiyans turning into oozarus are censored because those in charge of the censoring decided that those scenes amounted to promoting Darwin's Theory of Evolution, which many in the Arabic world are opposed to on religious grounds. Instead, those scenes are edited (very poorly) to imply that, in the presence of a full moon, saiyans "summon" oozarus rather than transforming into them. So does Toei now have to edit out the transformation scenes themselves to avoid offending audiences in Arabic countries? What about France? Italy? Spain? Germany? Thailand? Canada? Brazil? Mexico? The U.S.?

....That'd just get messy and confusing, which is exactly why censorship decisions with dubs are left up to dubbing companies on a case-by-case, country-by-country basis.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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