Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:17 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:29 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:46 pm
Maybe change Popo in future editions to be a realistic black man without the caricature elements? That'd be a nice change of pace.
He's not a black person. He simply just has black face, which is rooted in many things in Japan like Yokais for example. If anything he's probably based off a Yokai of some sort which inadvertently has black face due to the origin of that.
No, Mr. Popo is not human. Yes, Mr. Popo is definitely drawn as a racist caricature of a Black person. The skin, the eyes, the lips, the tooth, they all are intended to invoke the old Blackface/Sambo/Pickaninny imagery. His manner of speech, his job, his behavior, are all a reflection of anti-Black racism. There is nothing "inadvertent" about it. Whether or not he is based on any kind of youkai is irrelevant.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by TheatreStyleKai » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 am

Nuts to that, if anything we need more of Otokosuki. The guy is a 8 ft. Freddy Mercury Kung-Fu master who made it all the way to the biggest martial arts tournament on Earth. I say give him his own filler arc on his road to world champion to become the next like Mr. Satan.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:46 am

I can’t believe it’s almost 2020 and we’re still going to have people pretend Mr.Popo isn’t blatantly a minstrel show. Like...you have heard Mr.Popo talk in Japanese right?

And no he’s not based on any yokai. He’s vaguely suppose to be a genie between the Arabic wear and the magic carpet.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Shaddy » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:05 am

The question should be less of whether he's a racial caricature. He unarguably is, if you're still on that you're likely debating with people who are out for a reason to claim nothing is possibly racist, because we solved racism when we freed the slaves, or in the 60s with the civil rights act, or in 2008 when we elected a black guy (read: a man as genetically "white" as he is "black", assuming race itself isn't an inherently unscientific and bigoted social construct, which it is) president.

The question should be how is it or how can it be harmful? And you can ask that question and still come out liking Dragon Ball, Toriyama, and even Popo. Ask not "is this a binary representation of something associated with the cultural shorthand for pure evil" and instead ask "what are the effects this problematic thing has or could have on the world?". And in that respect, Popo is something that should be acknowledged as a product of the time in a culture where you didn't have America's racial history, but also the product of Toriyama basically doing a freeze-peach in response to some racist caricatures being banned or removed (Also, this guy's threads about DB and other cartoons and their portrayals of races are a good read). That shouldn't be forgotten, it shouldn't be justified, and it should be discussed. That doesn't mean hashtag cancel Toriyama, he's a 64 year-old shut in, he's not hurting anyone, just that the way we perceive and improve upon past failings in art is by talking about the things they do that are...not so hot.

Honestly the thing that I would consider most patently offensive and potentially harmful in Dragon Ball is it's trivialization of sexual assault and refusal to properly hold a sex pest accountable while outright glorifying him in other moments. I'm not about to claim that causes anyone to assault others, it would be wrong to do so; but studies totally have shown that media can normalize ideas, create impressions. And when the impression being normalized is "sexual assault is harmless old guy behavior, don't worry about it", yeah you should have a fucking problem with it. Even if you think it's minor, which it is -- it's that much more reason to fix it. Something so minor should surely not be a problem to just not include in future stories, no? And the same goes for all "problematic" content. This narrative of "cancel culture SJWs destroying society" is made up completely by people who want this stuff in media, as an attempt at making a radical position look like a "center" one by pushing everything else on the spectrum to the opposite end of "bug-fuck irrational". Discussion is happening, nobody has had their first amendment rights revoked, it is the cultural landscape evolving to be more accommodating to a more diverse base.

Wow that was a rant directed at nobody posted at 3AM. Sorry about that
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:18 am

Shaddy wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:05 am
Wow that was a rant directed at nobody posted at 3AM. Sorry about that
It was a good rant! I agreed with all of it.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:04 am

I never said that his design wasn't racially insensitive, just that Japan doesn't have the same history of race relations that they do in America, so they have less of a context for understanding how offensive it can be.

I remember hearing that in many old Japanese movies, they used offensive racial stereotypes of the Ainu people but that generally stopped around the late 50s to early 60s because there were protests and such. However, they kept using western stereotypes of black people in media for long after that, because there were few black people consuming the Japanese media and objecting to it.

If some American media made today featured those offensive Ainu stereotypes, most Americans wouldn't care or even recognize them, as most of them probably don't even know who the Ainu are, let alone anything about their history of being discriminated against and stereotyped.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Thanos » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:09 am

As others have said, Japan still has different sensibilities to the West, so basically what we’re talking about is FUNimation and other regional dub studios taking it upon themselves to heavily edit said content as they see fit. That feels more 2002 than 2019.

Besides, what we’re talking about is things like Blue being a pedo, and I’m guessing Kamesennin being a predator. The way I see it, neither of these things are glorified or condoned. Blue is an evil Nazi and Kamesennin is often chastised and punished for his perversions. Should we remove and censor any killing since that also isn’t socially acceptable? Where do you draw the line?

The only legitimate case is when it comes to how black people are portrayed. That’s just blatant ignorance and doesn’t effect the content of the series in any way. Japan’s differing sensibilities doesn’t really apply here because racism is what it is, regardless of where you’re from. It’s still marginalizing human beings who don’t deserve it. Same for the gay stereotypes I guess, but from my recollection these are few and far between. You could probably edit these scenes out and no one would notice.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:30 am

Thanos wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:09 am
Kamesennin is often chastised and punished for his perversions.
Not to any major degree. He gets a punch to the jaw from his object of grope and that's about it (and the only one who actually seems to notice is Bulma, every other character is either not in the know, too naive or looks the other way). The construction of his sexual scenes is very much built around comedy, and his punishments are done for an "oh YOU!" laugh rather than "yeah that asshole got what he deserved" in a cathartic sense. If his punishments were for real, we wouldn't be seeing/reading them every 20 chapters when he tries again, and again, and again.

Blue being a pedo meanwhile may be somewhat befitting of a villain, but that would only work in a show scripted to tackle that subject on an adult level, and absolutely not in a show aimed at the young boy demographic with an escapist storyline. And just like with Roshi, it's played to try and get a laugh out of the audience. A character being a pedophile is NOT something you drop into story casually, much like the Rape as Backstory trope. Just its inclusion practically requires you treat it right, and if you don't your writing just looks lazy and not thought-out.
Thanos wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:09 am
The only legitimate case is when it comes to how black people are portrayed. That’s just blatant ignorance and doesn’t effect the content of the series in any way. Same for the gay stereotypes I guess, but from my recollection these are few and far between. You could probably edit these scenes out and no one would notice.
Having done edits to the show myself, I can say with a fair amount of confidence that trying to edit out signs of Blue being effimate or Mr. Popo being Kami's servant would be impossible without making it extremely obvious that the footage was tampered with in the first place, because they're part of their characters and thus permeate a lot of their actions and dialogue, rather than being one-off scenes like with Roshi's sexual antics (and it's for that reason that Roshi's sexual scenes are one of the easiest things to remove, that's how inconsequential and removed those moments are to the story).

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:53 am

Thanos wrote:
Besides, what we’re talking about is things like Blue being a pedo, and I’m guessing Kamesennin being a predator. The way I see it, neither of these things are glorified or condoned. Blue is an evil Nazi
You’re missing the point. Nobody is saying Toei is condoning Blue being a pedo. The issue at hand is Toei is conflating being a gay man with being a pedophile. A harmful stereotype that has barred gay men from teaching at schools and being in leadership roles in the Boy Scouts




and Kamesennin is often chastised and punished for his perversions.
Hardly. Being the victim of some comic slapstick because “lol that dirty old man” isn’t really being punished. Roshi’s lecherous behavior and sexual assault is framed as “hahaha that ol silly billy”
Should we remove and censor any killing since that also isn’t socially acceptable? Where do you draw the line?
Hopefully, we should learn the difference between a series making light of sexual character and characters dying for narrative stakes.

Like, the two aren’t even remotely comparable? Maybe the devil doesn’t need an advocate.

The only legitimate case is when it comes to how black people are portrayed. That’s just blatant ignorance and doesn’t effect the content of the series in any way. Japan’s differing sensibilities doesn’t really apply here because racism is what it is, regardless of where you’re from. It’s still marginalizing human beings who don’t deserve it. Same for the gay stereotypes I guess, but from my recollection these are few and far between. You could probably edit these scenes out and no one would notice.
Sexual assault is what it is.

Racism is what it is

Harmful stereotypes of marginalized groups are what they are.


“But Japan” is not an excuse.


I don’t think anyone but the OP is advocating for censorship but it is good to recognize problematic elements.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Rory » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:08 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:30 am
Having done edits to the show myself, I can say with a fair amount of confidence that trying to edit out signs of Blue being effimate or Mr. Popo being Kami's servant would be impossible without making it extremely obvious that the footage was tampered with in the first place, because they're part of their characters and thus permeate a lot of their actions and dialogue, rather than being one-off scenes like with Roshi's sexual antics (and it's for that reason that Roshi's sexual scenes are one of the easiest things to remove, that's how inconsequential and removed those moments are to the story).
Perhaps I've missed out some context here, but what's the problem with Blue being effeminate? A gay man being effeminate isn't exactly offensive to the masses, or really to anyone I've ever known. It also never comes off to be as an attempt at belittling his character, nor does he get punished for acting the way he does (even if at times it's played for a gag), he's just a gay effeminate guy. The paedophile stuff from the TV show crosses the line for me, as it makes some painful implications (potentially about general attitudes towards homosexuality at the time), but him acting like many men I've met in my life doesn't really seem harmful.

Hopefully I'm not putting words in your mouth here! I might have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Extreme_kai » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:46 pm

Mr. Popo definitely bases in blackface/sambo stereotype, why are people still denying this? While Japanese at the time might have thought it was cute and nonoffensive to black people in the states, this knowledge that its offensive is clear in the modern times, so the inclusion of new blackface characters in anime is wholly unacceptable. I'll let products of their time go, but make sure future depictions of black people and caricature aliens/demon characters are left out. I also think it's important to point out the Moorish influence of Popo's design, it wasn't uncommon to see moors depicted this way. His style of dress, the black skin and even red lips seem to be heavily inspired by this kind of artistry. Makes me wonder whether blackface was originally a stylistic choice that later got corrupted into something sinister when it was imported over to the states, who knows :?: Not the best example, but I lost a lot of my image collection when switching laptops.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:07 pm

This is the most ridiculous topic I've seen in a while. The answer is absolutely not. Unequivocally no.

This is something about the LBGTQ community that has spiraled downhill into downright nonsense. The idea that "Well, this part here makes me feel 'offended' so let's remove it for everybody else" is so stupid that it's hard for me to take anybody seriously after that. It's a cartoon, not to mention a cartoon from a country and time period that doesn't share the same sensibilities as modern day snowflake culture. I'm not even going to say it's an American sentiment, because it's not, it's a very vocal minority of people desperate to assert their identity. If you can't put your "feelings" aside when watching a 40 year old cartoon, you've got bigger problems than if Mr.Popo is black or if Zarbon is overly flamboyant.

This does not mean I don't support gay rights. This does not mean I voted for Trump or attend alt-right meetings or vote for slimy republican candidates. But there are things that the LBGTQ community does that really piss me off, whether it's inserting themselves into the black struggle or crying rape everytime they happen to to come across something that isn't 100% politically correct and aligned with their views. The recent Dave Chapelle special has clearly highlighted that idiocy surrounding the notion that "you can't say this in your own artistic medium because I will get offended", as well as the utter disparity between snowflake outlets like Vice, Vox, etc. and the everyday person. I use the term "snowflake" because I truly believe this is a minority in the community that does not represent the gay rights movement as a whole, that also happens to be very vocal and pretentiously so.

There are tons of things wrong with how homosexuals are still treated to this day. While it's very accepted in metropolitan liberal cities there is still a lot of hate out there that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately the "Well I don't enjoy this type of comedy, so you shouldn't either because if you do you're no better than Hitler" is not the fucking solution. It's divisive, low hanging fruit that borders on masturbatory. People crying oppression today have no idea what it actually means to be oppressed. That being said, there is still a lot of work to be done in terms of equality among human beings but in order for that to happen you have to be open to a dialogue and realize that not everybody takes themselves as seriously as you do.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:29 pm

All of the LGBTQIA+ folks who posted in this thread said they didn't want the works censored but you're still going to turn around and say LGBTQIA+ folks are to blame for demanding censorship of older works?

I don't get your argument. Why punch down?
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Kokonoe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:56 pm

"I can't believe people are still saying"

Quote me directly if you wish to discuss something.

What I am saying is that Toriyama certainly didn't intend him to be a black person regardless of whatever the origins you are thinking. He's not even human, period.

Is he still racist? Yes absolutely, because of the racist features. What I was stating is that he is not literally a black human person. That is all.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Extreme_kai » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:11 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:56 pm
"I can't believe people are still saying"

Quote me directly if you wish to discuss something.

What I am saying is that Toriyama certainly didn't intend him to be a black person regardless of whatever the origins you are thinking. He's not even human, period.

Is he still racist? Yes absolutely, because of the racist features. What I was stating is that he is not literally a black human person. That is all.
Ok, why not take your own advice then? I was putting this out to anyone denying that he is a blackface character because I've commonly encountered this in discussion outside of this forum. Also, I wanted to talk about where I think some of his possible influences came from, this isn't all about you boo. I see other people not getting directedly responded to and not throwing conniption fits, so why are you getting defensive? It's almost like you know what you said in your original comment was a massive faux pas or something. (Just a short amendment. I don't know if this is was directed at MasenkoHA or me, but hey, this is why quotes are important :roll: The point still stands.)

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:35 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:56 pm
"I can't believe people are still saying"

Quote me directly if you wish to discuss something.

What I am saying is that Toriyama certainly didn't intend him to be a black person regardless of whatever the origins you are thinking. He's not even human, period.

Is he still racist? Yes absolutely, because of the racist features. What I was stating is that he is not literally a black human person. That is all.
i really don't see why that matters especially when almost every other black character in the manga is drawn like him, just not as dark and with different ears.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:21 pm

Rory wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:08 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:30 am
Having done edits to the show myself, I can say with a fair amount of confidence that trying to edit out signs of Blue being effimate or Mr. Popo being Kami's servant would be impossible without making it extremely obvious that the footage was tampered with in the first place, because they're part of their characters and thus permeate a lot of their actions and dialogue, rather than being one-off scenes like with Roshi's sexual antics (and it's for that reason that Roshi's sexual scenes are one of the easiest things to remove, that's how inconsequential and removed those moments are to the story).
Perhaps I've missed out some context here, but what's the problem with Blue being effeminate? A gay man being effeminate isn't exactly offensive to the masses, or really to anyone I've ever known. It also never comes off to be as an attempt at belittling his character, nor does he get punished for acting the way he does (even if at times it's played for a gag), he's just a gay effeminate guy. The paedophile stuff from the TV show crosses the line for me, as it makes some painful implications (potentially about general attitudes towards homosexuality at the time), but him acting like many men I've met in my life doesn't really seem harmful.

Hopefully I'm not putting words in your mouth here! I might have gotten the wrong end of the stick.
Hm, you have a point. Julie (and other LGBTQ users!), how do you feel about Blue's effeminate behaviour? Outside the context of that one scene, obviously.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:48 pm

i actually really like blue, even if really effeminate villains is kinda overplayed. he's super entertaining and probably more than anything i love his section of the story, those pirate caves are so fun. furukawa's performance in the anime is also so good, lol, despite the issues toei added with him.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:37 pm

I'm not a man but I like femboys so Blue being effeminate works as a nice contrast to all the horrible shit he does. Furukawa's performance is hilarious but the decision to make Blue a pedophile is really insulting to cisgay men and LGBTQIA+ folks in general. We get enough shit, don't perpetuate bullshit myths about us.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Kokonoe » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:52 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:35 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:56 pm
"I can't believe people are still saying"

Quote me directly if you wish to discuss something.

What I am saying is that Toriyama certainly didn't intend him to be a black person regardless of whatever the origins you are thinking. He's not even human, period.

Is he still racist? Yes absolutely, because of the racist features. What I was stating is that he is not literally a black human person. That is all.
i really don't see why that matters especially when almost every other black character in the manga is drawn like him, just not as dark and with different ears.
It matters in the context of what was said previously. The suggestion was to turn him into a respectable black person. I'm saying he's not a black person, he is a genie, a creature or whichever. I don't see how a monster like being would suit him being a human black person.


Extreme_kai wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:11 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:56 pm
"I can't believe people are still saying"

Quote me directly if you wish to discuss something.

What I am saying is that Toriyama certainly didn't intend him to be a black person regardless of whatever the origins you are thinking. He's not even human, period.

Is he still racist? Yes absolutely, because of the racist features. What I was stating is that he is not literally a black human person. That is all.
Ok, why not take your own advice then? I was putting this out to anyone denying that he is a blackface character because I've commonly encountered this in discussion outside of this forum. Also, I wanted to talk about where I think some of his possible influences came from, this isn't all about you boo. I see other people not getting directedly responded to and not throwing conniption fits, so why are you getting defensive? It's almost like you know what you said in your original comment was a massive faux pas or something. (Just a short amendment. I don't know if this is was directed at MasenkoHA or me, but hey, this is why quotes are important :roll: The point still stands.)
Multiple people made that claim, only I made my claim so obviously I'm going to do it this way so people quote me once again instead of not quoting.

"massive faux pas" Hilarious.

Like if you really want to turn this into mud slinging I could do that quite easily.

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