Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

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Shaddy
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Shaddy » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:06 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:59 pm
You know what's fucking hilarious? That I can't make an objective observation on anything the left does without being crucified. I'm either a right wing slimy republican or "rational centrist" who has ties to white supremacy and secretly holds nazi meetings in my basement. How fucking ridiculous is that.
Literally nobody called you a right winger or a nazi and it's hilarious that you then start criticizing "victim complexes".
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:59 pm

It gets better. I am unable to criticize the idea that not everything is offensive. I am unable to point out that the so called marginalized groups that encompasses every pronoun in the book are crying about oppression without knowing what that means.


That sure doesn't sound like a minimization of LGBT issues at all.

You're also completely free to "criticize" whatever you want. We are equally free to tell you when it makes you look like a tool.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:59 pm
am not allowed to have a problem with a vocal minority that cries rape over the silliest things. These people, and I do believe it is a vocal minority absolutely take away from real problems that the gay community as a whole has had to overcome and STILL has to overcome.
Besides the fact that barely happens, this is a weird equivalence to make? Gay people and people who are allegedly oversensitive about rape don't have the overlap you imply here and your tone is slightly worrying.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:59 pm
Dave Chappelle is "decidedly unopressed"? Are you fucking kidding me? What, because he is rich? Because he's a celebrity? Because he's straight? His whole career has been about exposing the ugly side of America's deep rooted racism and how his own people unknowingly play into that stereotype at the amusement of those in power. Before he was Dave Chappelle he was still a black man living in America and his bits, if you were actually listening, come from his own personal experience and the points of view he has developed about them. That's his biggest draw, he wraps a very profound and deep understanding of racial and socioeconomic divide in something people can digest easily. He was doing it then and he is doing it now.
I meant he was not oppressed for his sexuality and you most definitely knew that.

Furthermore if being a champion of the oppressed like you say is the idea he should be doing something constructive and inclusive to other marginalized communities, not making fun of them.
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:59 pm
You want to talk about toxic masculinity? Let's also talk about victim mentality. Let's also talk about who a vocal minority acts as if they are they end all be all when comes to assessing who his toxic and who isn't. What should be said and what shouldn't. That the ideology they peddle is as divisive as it gets. I can go on and on, and give me a stick to shake at the right and I will do so just as vehemently. Its very interesting that you instantly put me in one camp or the other based on the fact that I thought there was nothing wrong with the Chapelle special. Very interesting and telling indeed.
I haven't put you in either camp before now nor is it 'instantaneous'. I criticised your fallacious argument using what I know about your previous shitty behavior. You're attacking me on the basis of promoting victim culture while also playing the victim just cause I didn't take that crap.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:11 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:22 pm
Fair enough.

Has anyone here argued that old DB material should be edited? And I don't just mean this thread. Has anyone seen anyone on this forum argue that the anime and manga should edit out "outdated LGBT+" content?
I wouldn't be opposed to making a reboot/remake version that tones down the stereotypes, as long as the original version is still available.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Kendamu » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:50 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:22 pm
Fair enough.

Has anyone here argued that old DB material should be edited? And I don't just mean this thread. Has anyone seen anyone on this forum argue that the anime and manga should edit out "outdated LGBT+" content?
I don't believe so. A couple of middle fingers were removed from two shots out of thirteen films and people took Toei to task over that nonsense.

Also, nobody has ever really said, "Hey, I really like that nobody had holes in their torsos in the first couple arcs of Kai!"

If there was some sort of recap of the Red Ribbon Arc that was freshly animated or if they brought back Blue for laughs in Super, I'd like his sexuality to not be the punchline with him. Considering how Caulifla and Kale are coded as a lesbian couple (they're not literally sisters, get out of here with that trash!) and that wasn't really treated badly, I believe that Toei is capable of being a bit nicer about someone like Blue.

But, yeah, let's not censor the past. Even if the past makes me roll my eyes a bit.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:20 pm

If they ever do a Kai version of the original or just a reversion of it, I want them to keep Blue in since he is so prominent in the arc. Personally I thought he was the most interesting villan in the RR arc. I do agree with everyone, maybe tone it down a bit on the jokes.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by omegacwa » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:44 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:21 pm
Trans people are murdered for being trans and it's actually legal, so please don't saying we know nothing about oppression. I just spent two weeks in the south--two thousand miles from home--having to pretend to be cishet so that I didn't get assaulted, raped or sodomized for using the woman's rest room or buying gas and food. I was genuinely fearful of my life when that cop asked to search through my stuff. What if he commented on my woman's clothing in my suitcase? What if he got hostile?
I don't know where you are from but murder is not legal in the United States. Also I feel like your fears are slightly unfounded. Unpremeditated crime is extremely low. The odds of someone suddenly getting bloodthirsty at the sight of you alone and going from a run of the mill average guy/girl into a person willing to become a death row inmate is astronomically low.

I have spent many, many years traveling around the US. I was both in a punk rock/metal band and I was a pro wrestler. I have gone in some of the seediest disgusting bars. My band even played a questionably white supremacist bar (we didn't know until we got to the venue and saw the clientele) and our drummer is Asian, and the other bands were mixed races and no one got beat up. There were even trans people at several shows we played over the years.

The only fights I have ever witnessed in public were at a punk shows. They were premeditated and between two straight white guys.

I'm not trying to belittle your struggles. I hope you understand that. I'm actually trying to ease your fears. You shouldn't have to live in fear.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by SaiyamanMS » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:42 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:44 pm
I don't know where you are from but murder is not legal in the United States. Also I feel like your fears are slightly unfounded. Unpremeditated crime is extremely low. The odds of someone suddenly getting bloodthirsty at the sight of you alone and going from a run of the mill average guy/girl into a person willing to become a death row inmate is astronomically low.
While “murder” itself isn’t legal, to my understanding “trans panic” (ie. freaking out when you realise that someone is trans) is considered a valid defence for murder in parts of the US. The number of reports I’ve seen of trans women being murdered in the American south this year is incredibly disturbing. I’m at a point in my transition where I apparently “pass” as cis woman pretty well, but the American south is somewhere I’d absolutely want to steer clear of.

Anyway, on the actual topic of discussion. As a lesbian trans woman, I’m probably the furthest thing from an authority on gay men, but I see no issues whatsoever with how Blue is portrayed in the manga. Sure, he’s somewhat stereotypical, but not outright offensive. The Obatchaman scene in the anime however was terrible and and a horrible example of “Homosexuality = Sexual Predator” and has no place in the series. I wouldn’t dare remove it from rereleases of the existing show because it’s a thing that happened and pretending it didn’t is dumb. But it’d be the first thing to go in a censored for TV broadcast edit and absolutely would be cut from any Kai-style edit of the original series.

The only other major instance of LGBT content in DB off the top of my head is Otokosuki, who I personally think is hilarious, but can probably be considered a borderline case as far as being offensive goes.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by gantarat » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:59 am

Edit or Put Disclaimer It requires that Toei Really cares about LGBT rights.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Dr. Casey » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:30 pm

Gay panic and trans panic laws are some of the most mindbogglingly absurd laws I know of. "Losing at a videogame panic" laws or "someone accidentally bumps into you panic" laws would be about as valid.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:46 pm

I went out in a skirt for the first time yesterday. Luckily all I got were laughs and I didn't use a public restroom.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by JustAlex1997 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:59 am

Should every piece of entertainment that's ever existed/will exist be altered to reflect changes to the views of a society? Should they be altered every single time things change? No, because that's silly (at best) and a threat to preservation of entertainment (at worst). Dragon Ball was created in the eighties and nineties, and it should remain a product of its time. Putting a blanket over history and walking away accomplishes nothing of value.

If you don't like older Dragon Ball material, you'd be better off sticking to modern Dragon Ball material.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:12 am

Future Dragon Ball should be even queerer, with positive and open displays of queerness.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:49 am

JustAlex1997 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:59 am
If you don't like older Dragon Ball material, you'd be better off sticking to modern Dragon Ball material.
Certain episodes of Super highly disagree with that outlook, I think.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Witty User Name » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:46 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:12 am
Future Dragon Ball should be even queerer, with positive and open displays of queerness.
I like the up-frontness of Julie-chan. At least she's fucking honest.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:48 pm

Whis is gay.

Beerus bath scene pretty much confirms it.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:52 pm

I personally feel that if anyone thinks the series should be retroactively censored, that they automatically forfeit any right to complain about all of the censorship that the franchise has been through in the past and now present with Toei's butchered movie releases.

Even if times change and society's views change, I'm always against changing a work for them (and if it's something overtly bigoted, then maybe it wasn't worthwhile in the first place).
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:17 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:52 pm
I personally feel that if anyone thinks the series should be retroactively censored, that they automatically forfeit any right to complain about all of the censorship that the franchise has been through in the past and now present with Toei's butchered movie releases.

Even if times change and society's views change, I'm always against changing a work for them (and if it's something overtly bigoted, then maybe it wasn't worthwhile in the first place).
I’d agree but it doesn’t look like anyone outside the OP is advocating for censorship. Most Dragon Ball fans are able to accept that its problematic content exist and censorship won’t undo it.

Like don’t apologize for your mistakes just do better.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:46 pm

Indeed, be sure to give a thread a read to see what else is being said. In this case, virtually no one outside the original poster is advocating for any kind of prior content removal.

Also be sure to note when said conversations took place, as this thread was inactive for several months. Unless you have something earth shattering to add that hasn’t already been said, you may just end up confusing people by resurrecting old conversations.
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:20 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:17 pm
Metalwario64 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:52 pm
I personally feel that if anyone thinks the series should be retroactively censored, that they automatically forfeit any right to complain about all of the censorship that the franchise has been through in the past and now present with Toei's butchered movie releases.

Even if times change and society's views change, I'm always against changing a work for them (and if it's something overtly bigoted, then maybe it wasn't worthwhile in the first place).
I’d agree but it doesn’t look like anyone outside the OP is advocating for censorship. Most Dragon Ball fans are able to accept that its problematic content exist and censorship won’t undo it.

Like don’t apologize for your mistakes just do better.
Not to mention, there’s a world of difference between what the 96 dub did to DBZ and what OP was advocating. One was dumbing down a show to cater to American ignorance and prudishness. The latter would in theory remove/tone down aspects of the show that may cause marginalized groups pain. Not that I’d want that myself, but I’m also speaking from a position of privilege. I understand why someone may want that stuff gone.

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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:32 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:48 pm
Whis is gay.

Beerus bath scene pretty much confirms it.
What if he is bi? Or pan?
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Re: Editing of painfully-outdated LGBT+ content in future DB(Z) releases?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:54 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:32 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:48 pm
Whis is gay.

Beerus bath scene pretty much confirms it.
What if he is bi? Or pan?
I think Gohan and Videl’s daughter is Pan.

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