Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:06 am

gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:12 pm
I'm seeing a kinda myopic view regarding Toonami.
This is almost EXACTLY backwards. Broadly speaking, its been my overwhelming experience across the last 15 years that the segment of anime fandom with the most myopic view of most things anime-related are, by and large anyway, Toonami fans.

Obviously when I say this, I'm not speaking about every single, solitary individual who happened to be introduced to anime via Toonami. A certain (albeit smaller) segment of that generation/viewership have certainly moved on to better things in the years since. What I'm talking about though are the core crux of the large swath of millennial Western fandom that largely still clings to not just Toonami itself, but Toonami's general conception of what anime "is" as their principal defining vision of what the medium is supposed to embody.

The problem I have with both the impact that Toonami has had, as well as with its most ardent fans, is the absurdly narrow and, yes indeed, myopic definition and conception of Japanese anime that its largely responsible for instilling into the mass Western mainstream consciousness.

Simply put: Japanese anime is a medium that contains such an INSANELY broad and diverse array of artistic sensibilities, creative visions, and unique voices, the likes of which we still to this day RARELY ever get to see in any other format of animation from any other culture on such a vast, vast scale. Toonami has, throughout most of its history, represented ABSURDLY little to almost NONE of that diversity of talent, vision, and voices. Toonami is very much indeed a "brand" in the most nauseatingly gross and cynically corporatized sense of the word.

For all that its done in making masses more within the American mainstream aware of anime, Toonami's skewed, children's Saturday morning breakfast cereal-intensive representation of anime to most of those people has always typically been SO absurdly limited and even misleading, that in some ways its almost been more of a constraint to the medium: certainly in it gaining or retaining any legs with most anyone who isn't a died-in-the-wool stan for primarily children's animation and TV shows above and at the expense of all else.

For an entire generation (several generations now arguably) within the English speaking world, Toonami is literally synonymous with Japanese anime as a medium/concept. And given how boundlessly dense in scope the actual medium of anime is outside of Toonami, contrasted with how brain numbingly narrow and stiflingly limited Toonami's vision of anime is and always has been... that widespread, mass-marketed "branding" of anime as defined by Toonami is something to be mourned not celebrated.

Anime itself as a medium is, was, and always will be something FAR infinitely bigger and more denser and meaningful as an art form than something as vapid and empty as Toonami has ever or will ever be. I would argue, indeed I have argued many times and will continue to do so, that ardent, hardcore Toonami fans (as an overarching whole, again with individual exceptions noted and set aside) don't really particularly give two shits about anime itself as a creative medium, and never have. What they care about is their own nostalgia, Toonami itself as a brand, and its narrow definition of anime. In more or less that order.

Myopia is taking an incredibly rich, infinitely layered tapestry of art with an absurdly dense 70+ year history to it that's just as capable of boundlessly transgressive artistic freedom as it is the usual cynical corporate shilling we're used to on Western shores, and reducing it down to an over-fixation SQUARELY and largely on the latter at the direct expense and near total ignoring and careless dismissing of the former.

Both Toonami and its hardcore fanbase are the motherfucking dictionary definition of "myopic" in their entire approach and conceit of anime as an artistic medium for the better part of most of the past 20 years (with a VERY small smattering of notable exceptions therein).

To want and push for MORE sides and facets of a medium's history to grow in exposure and awareness, for the mainstream consciousness' definition and conception of an entire artistic medium to EXPAND rather than remain narrowed off and limited in scope to just a certain and very strict subset of it... I'm pretty sure that's the EXACT ANTITHESIS of "myopic".

To boil it down in as blunt and direct a way as I can manage: anime is far, far, FAR more than a collection of shitball children's action cartoon schlock that happen to be from Japan. But if you're someone who's entire framework of anime is still deeply rooted largely from within your overly rose-tinted memories of Toonami as a kid, then you'd almost certainly never know or realize that, nor in all likelihood would you even care to.

Fans of Toonami may SOMETIMES overlap with fans of anime as a creative medium. Maybe one or two out of a dozen or so typical Toonami fans are people who maybe might go on to actually delve even SOMEWHAT seriously into anime as a broader creative medium and go somewhere with it that's beyond the Pokemon/Shonen Jump-esque realm (indeed, I've known a good few who have). But by and large overall, they are usually not at all one and the same thing eight or nine times out of ten.

gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:12 pm
It means something to people. Nostalgia plays a huge part, sure, but to call it sad that people are fans of Toonami, to me, is kinda like people calling us sad for being fans of Dragon Ball. Sure, they're completely different franchises, but the fact still remains that it's a huge fandom based on primarily a children's entertainment franchise that was popular in the 80s and 90s yet somehow still manages to hold on today. And yes, it did make an impact, but I think a huge portion of us would he lying if we didn't acknowledge that on some level, our love for Dragon Ball could be considered as weird as the love someone has for Toonami.
Liking A children's franchise (or maybe two or three) as an adult is one thing. Sure, its still certainly strange to some degree, but on the whole it is still something that is entirely worlds away from liking overwhelmingly largely children's franchises as an adult or worse, nothing but children's franchises as an adult.

The former is a bit unusual to a certain extent, but can be fairly benign if its balanced out with a TON more focus on much more mature and age appropriate material: the latter though is deeply intellectually unhealthy as well as antithetical to having a more nuanced and educated grasp of media literacy in general.

Dragon Ball is just one lone children's franchise. One. Toonami represents not only a FUCKTON more various different children's franchises as a collective whole, but moreover a disturbingly LARGE percentage of its audience tends to be made up of people who very often tend to have an over the top level of hyper-fixation on children's media and a near total abject cluelessness and complete disinterest in (as well as sometimes even an outright FEAR of) adult-aimed media of almost ANY sort.

Being a fan of just Dragon Ball by itself is in NO WAY the same thing as being someone who's SO overly-fixated on children's television as a whole (again, often at the expense of anything else of substance or meaning), that they'll fetishize and mythologize a fucking glorified TV ad for them. One of these is just ONE single piece of media made for children: the other can be reasonably argued to be a fucking psychological pathology.

Liking a single piece of children's media as an adult (or maybe even tiny, small handful of them) is odd and perhaps quirky, but doesn't have to be anything more than that so long as its all taken with a HEAVY dose of perspective and balance alongside a much larger pool of actual adult interests. Being so overly-invested in children's cartoons as an adult that you create a fucking web shrine to, again I stress, a goddamned glorified television advertisement block for them (while oftentimes being COMPLETELY clueless to name more than maybe two or three actual non-children's focused pieces of media for adults): yes, that is UNQUESTIONABLY the textbook definition of sad.

And yes, a great deal of Toonami fans often typically tend to be the kinds of people who have the exact inverse of a healthy and balanced media palette: being grown adults who are maybe into only a smattering tiny handful of adult media (and sometimes/oftentimes not even that) while otherwise gorging and drowning themselves in a vast ocean of children's schlock 24/7.

gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:12 pm
My point is that (and I'm wasting into dangerous territory with this one) insulting a fanbase for loving what they love is not only elitist and rude but also slightly hypocritical.
I already addressed my thoughts on the "hypocritical" part of this up above there, but with regards to the "elitist" part: elitist is a word I've long been awfully sick to death of hearing thrown around in these kinds of conversations. I'm certainly not going to say I've NEVER met someone in a fanbase whom I think warranted the label "elitist", because I most certainly have... but much, MUCH more often that not, the term is thrown around with SUCH stupidly wild abandon, that its become one of those words that's lost any remote semblance of meaning and has devolved basically into "person with whom I disagree and don't personally care for their tone or what they're saying".

Yes, I'm evidently an "elitist" for thinking its stupid, ridiculous, embarrassing, and cringe-inducing that such a gigantic swath of this community (of largely grown-ass adults need I remind) still fetishizes and obsesses over their childhood nostalgia for dumpy kids' cartoons as a whole to such an absurd extent that they've made this crappy TV ad block for them into some ridiculous sacred cow that to insult the name and memory of it is to be seen and taken as some sort of grave offense, on the level of a personal insult. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I'm also apparently elitist for wanting MORE people (across a VAST and broad swath of the mainstream) to take MORE of an interest in MORE aspects and sides and facets of anime beyond and apart from the tiny, microscopic little sliver of it that Toonami has largely represented and embodied for the last couple decades in the minds of most in the mainstream end of fandom.

And here I thought elitism was generally marked by those who want their interests to be more "gated off" AWAY from the mainstream and the masses, to be known and appreciated only by the "privileged and enlightened" few? :think: :think: :think: :think: :think:

Understand something: I don't talk shit about Toonami (and the ridiculous hyper-clinginess of its fanbase) because I think myself "superior" to it/them (which is what elitism actually is). Trust me on at least this much: I don't think of myself, nor do I even want to think myself, as superior to ANYONE or anything. Ever.

I simply find it SUPER frustrating - like, to maddening degrees - because I KNOW FOR A FACT that this is a community/fanbase that is potentially capable of SO MUCH infinitely better discourse, self-reflection, analysis, and insight than its demonstrated throughout the years, and that a large part of what's holding so much of it back from evolving like a fucking albatross has been this seemingly pathological refusal/inability for so many people within it to psychologically move themselves past and let go of this ridiculously over-idealized image of what media and their perceptions of it (amongst a SLEW of other more important things in a great many cases, but that's neither here nor there) was like to them during their grade school years.

gokaiblue wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:12 pm
I could go on and on about the merits of Toonami and the community it brings just as all of us could go on and on about Dragon Ball. Sure, the latter has more meat on its bones and thus more to discuss, but that doesn't make it any more or less of a fandom than Toonami.
Dragon Ball has "more meat on its bones" because its an actual fucking narrative with characters, arcs, themes, etc. A fairly simple one for kids, but nonetheless an actual cohesive narrative that, if in no small part due to its sheer size and scope, invites a fairly good deal of exploration and analysis.

Toonami meanwhile, is nothing more than an advertising brand. That it has a "storyline" across its ads is little more than a shallow gimmick, like the "storylines" on the back of a toyline's packaging. Thus, I'm not even going to VAGUELY pretend to entertain the idea that there's anything even the slightest bit of worthwhile merit contained therein that's worth acknowledging or discussing.

Moreover, Toonami is an advertising brand that I would argue (and have argued, and will continue to argue) has done a LOT more in the way of longterm damage to the creative credibility of anime in the Western mainstream that vastly outweighs the "exposure" it has also given it.

More people in the mainstream zeitgeist knowing the term "anime" and that it means "cartoons from Japan" means absolutely shit from shinola to me when by and large the ONLY KINDS of anime most of those people are thinking of when they think of the term (even among a great deal of the supposedly "hardcore anime geeks" online) is the likes of Pokemon, Naruto, One Piece, My Hero Academia, and yes, certainly even Dragon Ball as well.

Sorry, but having a MUCH broader and demographically/artistically diverse depth of anime within the mainstream consciousness ABSOLUTELY matters infinitely more to me (and in general) than just "Hey, now Joe & Jane Average knows what a Pikachu or a Kamehameha is!" Shit like that is in NO WAY my idea of a "win" for anime's visibility in mainstream Western society. And since THAT is usually the full breadth and depth of what most Toonami diehards mean when they talk about "anime owing SO MUCH of its Western exposure" to the block: then Toonami can absolutely and unquestionably fuck right off the face of the planet with THAT shit.

And if you want to lament along with me the depressingly narrow scope and lack of visibility in the mainstream for other kinds of anime apart from the Shonen Jump set... then most of the people reading this can't really blame anything for that but themselves. Because these things don't just magically grow out of nowhere from a vacuum.

The overall fanbase ITSELF is and remains largely to blame for anime's horrible mainstream perception and reputation in the U.S. (and other English language countries). Part of it is definitely some of its grotesque personal behavior and conduct online via certain corners of it within places like 4chan and whatnot, which obviously pushes away a TON of people for extremely self-evident reasons: but even setting that aside (since yes I'm well aware, 4chan and its like hardly represent ALL of anime fandom as a whole obviously), the broader whole of Western fandom is STILL at fault for the rotten perception of anime largely by its own fixating on and promoting only the most shallow and insipid junkfood titles that exists only on the narrow scale and spectrum allotted by the Toonami-like brand that's been thoroughly stamped into their heads.

Why would or should the mainstream look any deeper into all the great many masterworks, classics, and genuinely worthwhile gems of the medium when most of the "hardcore" fans online oftentimes don't even give much of a crap about them or pay much attention to any of them themselves? And they're supposed to be the ones who are "super passionate" about this stuff!

Most typical Western anime fans throughout all the past 20 years post-Toonami could care less about promoting and pushing the more denser and genuinely mature and boundary pushing sides of anime, because they themselves don't care in the slightest about them because they're FAR too busy and preoccupied with splooging and obsessing over the latest Pokemon series or the newest Shonen Jump fiasco, or whatever the latest Moe/Ecchi/Light Novel flavor of the moment happens to be. Because the former two timewarps them mentally & emotionally back to being an 8 year old sitting on front of the TV watching Toonami, while the latter... gyaah. The less said about it, the better. :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

I mean, just for a moment take yourself out of being a diehard geek/Otaku/fanboy or whatever you wanna call it. Place yourselves in the shoes of a so-called "normie" for a second. Who in the FUCK in the mainstream, adult world would EVER want to venture NEAR something like this? Its always been downright delusional of so much of modern anime fandom to want or expect that the rest of the overall mainstream culture would descend along with them into mainlining such an overwhelmingly steady diet of such abject irritating garbage and juvenile idiocy along with it for years and years and years and years at a time.

Toonami pushed only a CERTAIN KIND of children's anime out into the mainstream spotlight at the turn of the century: but since it NEVER really ventured any further beyond that and never showed the mainstream much of anything else (of the MYRIAD of other options) that anime has to offer past that type of stuff, the novelty of it all eventually wore off on all but the most dedicated of diehards; to say nothing of all the regular, ordinary children who started out as fans, but eventually "outgrew" anime when nothing much beyond Shonen drivel was still being shoveled out in front of them.

And those diehards themselves have, by and large, not really done jack shit to even educate most of THEMSELVES on what else anime has going on apart from the insular Weaboo shit, much less be bothered to try and push any of it out into the mainstream via aggressive grassroots word of mouth and internet/social media visibility. Because most of those "diehards" online (a great majority of whom were weaned on Toonami originally) genuinely, sincerely do not fucking care in the SLIGHTEST about anime as a real piece of creative media (and continually demonstrate that nearly every day), but rather as a surrogate time-machine - an animated Neverland if you will - to service their morose and self-pittying wallowing in the past (and to say nothing of wallowing in their other creeptastic sexual fantasies, but that's a WHOLE other can of worms).

Lest we forget: most of the original licensing companies of the 80s and early 90s, pre-Toonami, managed to push and market anime into the broader mainstream by a fairly great deal from pretty much the ground up, DIY-style, in the analog world of VHS and dial-up: pre-digital, pre-DSL, pre-wireless, pre-social media, pre-smartphone, pre-streaming, and with hardly a wisp of major TV network backing from the likes of a Ted Turner-type.

With the internet being what it is today, it would be EXCEEDINGLY do-able for the fanbase to organize and self-curate a diverse and creatively broad canon/body of titles with which to heavily push via social media and word of mouth to help promote and rehabilitate the image and perception of anime within the mainstream zeitgeist and show actual, normal, healthy, emotionally functional, and intellectually active adults (read: non-manchildren and non-online introverts/shut-ins) that anime is SO broad-ranging and diverse, that it even has PLENTY of worth to offer and genuinely interest them.

With RARE and scattered exceptions though (nowhere near enough to cohere and make enough of a dent at least), most of the online anime fanbase generally doesn't: largely because most of them don't give two shits enough to. Because most of them don't give two shits about anime as an art form, but rather just about wallowing and marinating in their childhood nostalgia, desperately chasing after the ever-fading dragon of that first high they felt as 8 year olds via Toonami and the like.

Thus, along with economic fallout from the collapse of the DVD/home video industry in the mid/late-2000s, has helped lead us into the increasing insularity and Weaboo-ification of anime that we've been witnessing for most of the last 15+ years now. At least within North America and much of the Western world: Japan itself is a WHOLE other matter entirely.

I've said this before, and will say it again here: I may like Dragon Ball, as a singular work unto itself, a fairly great deal. But if I could, I would without the slightest hesitation trade in and completely undo ALL of its North America/Western exposure and mainstream popularity/visibility across the last 20 years in a fucking NANOSECOND if it meant, in exchange, that anime as a MUCH broader whole of a medium all across the mainstream (and its fanbase along with it for that matter) were in FAR better - as in, more intellectually and artistically/creatively healthy - shape. I'd do it a thousand times over, and I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Danfun64 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:04 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:06 am
Who in the FUCK in the mainstream, adult world would EVER want to venture NEAR something like this?
Now I know the joke I'm about to make might not reflect well on my maturity, but I couldn't resist.

Jokes aside, you're right. Toonami, for better or worse, has severely narrowed down the definition of Anime to the average American and perhaps throughout the western world. As someone who has seen relatively few complete animes even compared to the average Toonami fan, I would have no idea where to start watching, especially if I want to break away from Shonen Jump type shows into the wide variety of genres and more intellectually stimulating content that you've implied. To make matters worse, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the more mature content doesn't have a fansub...let alone an officially released sub or dub.

You think you can give suggestions for complete newbies of good shows for beginners by genre? (Each must have a good English translation, preferably official)
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Dr. Casey » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:40 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:40 pm
You guys may think Appointment TV is dead but the numbers say otherwise, Dragon Ball Super scored 800k viewers and was the 7th most watched thing on TV. But the BIG NUMBERS REALLY show up with Descendants which scored 4 FUCKING MILLION VIEWERS and the Steven Universe movie which also did gangbusters with 1.5 million. I know its shit put it sure does put a dent on the Appointment TV is dead and buried.
It's not that it's dead. It's that streaming is beginning to overtake it. Different articles give slightly different takes, but from the articles I've looked at, streaming and traditional TV are relatively even here in 2019, the same way that VHS and DVD were roughly even in 2001 (I think that streaming television really started to take off around 2010 with the advent of 4G, even if streaming in general reached mainstream status around 2006 or 2007 thanks to YouTube). The 2020s will likely be a decade that starts off with traditional and streaming more or less on the same level, but that the majority of the 20s will have streaming be the clear victor in popularity.
Danfun64 wrote:To make matters worse, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the more mature content doesn't have a fansub...let alone an officially released sub or dub.
Nah, there's an audience out there for pretty much everything that's willing to pick up the slack, at least as far as fansubs go. There's some truth to your guess, definitely, but there's also a ton of series that are older, or more obscure, or have less universal appeal, or some combination of the three, that have received fansubs. Length is a stronger indicator of whether a series has been subbed than anything else. That random OVA from 1985 has very likely been fansubbed, that 300 episode series that ran during the 1970s and 1980s more than likely has not (in its entirety).
Me wrote:Yeah. If anything, I'd say that networks stop airing shows much more frequently than streaming services lose rights. Crunchyroll dropping series has been a fairly uncommon thing, a small handful of noteworthy exceptions aside. I think it would be very difficult to make an argument for traditional appointment TV being a match for streaming in any way, honestly, aside from a simple attachment to tradition. Reminds me a bit of how people tried to downplay the worth of the internet early on, like with Giles' preachy little self-righteous "I don't like this newfangled internet thing, books will always be better" monologue in season one of Buffy, or how the school librarians told us towards the very beginning of high school that the internet is unreliable and that we should always rely on the trusty old Card Catalog and library books instead.
And looking back at this, ow, I hope that KBABZ and anyone else who agreed with him didn't take this as an attack. No comparison was meant between the posts here and Giles' monologue, they're totally separate things. I admit that I'm a little confused by people who don't place streaming above traditional TV, but it's not a viewpoint that bothers me at all.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:09 am

Yes. It definitely would be affected without its golden series but it has and can handle itself without Dragon Ball.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:06 am

Toonami is very much indeed a "brand" in the most nauseatingly gross and cynically corporatized sense of the word.
While I'm usually in agreement with Kunzait, THIS is a view that I find deeply cynical. I see no issue with Toonami's block of anime narrowing the focus of the genre it broadcasts.

Considering the access people have nowadays and the prevalence of the long-tail effect, I would like to see the actual numbers about what people are watching because I truly doubt the range of anime people are watching has actually narrowed.
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Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:22 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:10 pm
I get it, things have changed. Appointment TV isn't really a thing anymore, but that mostly applies to first run programming and events like sports. DB is neither.
Was it ever really? I think most people DVR’d and tivo’d shows to watch at their convenience before streaming took off and before that taped them.
Before DVR's, yes it was. I'm not sure it ever applied to DB, though.

Regarding the whole Toonami having its own lore and characters, as condescending as this sounds, there's no accounting for taste. I think the specialness you are ascribing to the experience is asinine. The experience of watching something the same time as someone else is primarily for two reasons: 1) To talk about it and not be out of the loop, 2) watching something in proximity to someone else.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:13 am

I mean at the end of the day Toonami was a children's action cartoon block that happened to strike gold with Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon reruns and wanted more similar stuff that fit the demographic they were going for. You can't really blame or damn it for providing a narrow scope.

The impression I've always gotten is that surrounding fandom of anime in that demographic was basically a mutation of what used to be obsessive comic book geekdom. In other words, the type of people inclined to go crazy over the Shonen anime of the month would have been the people with shelves full of unopened comic books. The type of people that would be inclined to dive deeper into anime as a whole...are still around in probably the same numbers they were back then, but now there's another side of western fandom adjacent to them.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:14 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:13 am
I mean at the end of the day Toonami was a children's action cartoon block that happened to strike gold with Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon reruns and wanted more similar stuff that fit the demographic they were going for. You can't really blame or damn it for providing a narrow scope.

Note the following from me in the previous post:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:06 am
And if you want to lament along with me the depressingly narrow scope and lack of visibility in the mainstream for other kinds of anime apart from the Shonen Jump set... then most of the people reading this can't really blame anything for that but themselves. Because these things don't just magically grow out of nowhere from a vacuum.

The overall fanbase ITSELF is and remains largely to blame for anime's horrible mainstream perception and reputation in the U.S. (and other English language countries).
Toonami, like you correctly noted, was little more than just a dumb kids' cartoon block. The "fault" for its narrowing of the scope of wider anime fandom lies ultimately with the overwhelming bulk of the English language fanbase themselves for being so ridiculously infantile and obsessed with the past and with being forever children, that they remain to this day unable to allow themselves to move past the narrow, stiflingly limited conception of anime that Toonami planted into their heads at a young age. Something as silly and stupid as Toonami can only have as much of an overpowering hold over the mainstream narrative and focus on anime in America/the English language world if so many people collectively and continually ALLOW it to have it. Which they do.

That all having been said though: given the patently ridiculous layers of inflated importance and "creative quality" that so much of the fanbase projects onto Toonami (and on its particular shitty flavor/brand of anime), I certainly also think that its more than warranted to be in every which way 100% real and sobering about how ultimately shallow, vapid, and artistically bankrupt the block's skewed filter of anime is, has been, and always was (again, with the VERY rarest of rare exceptions aside: getting a new Junji Ito adaptation off the ground is certainly nothing at all to sneeze at in itself).

The venom aimed at it isn't because I place the onus of blame for the past 15+ years status quo for anime in the U.S. on the block itself (believe me, I place that onus SQUARELY on the fanbase itself ultimately): its because the delusion of it as being this once bastion of "cutting edge" material (for fuck's sake, most of its defining flagship shows were more than decade-old series that its audience of sheltered-ass middle schoolers were just playing catch-up on long after the fact) to say nothing of it somehow being "ground zero" all things anime in the U.S. (which is as outright laughably ahistorical, and moronic as claiming that something like Men In Black was somehow "ground zero" for all things sci fi in film) is SO overwhelmingly widespread and so oft trumpeted as stone cold, iron clad "fact", that it MORE than earns the bile aimed its way in kind given the reality of how cringingly lame and narrow-reaching its scope of anime actually was in the grand scheme of things.

The fandom itself earns the lion's share of the blame for the overall broader situation and the past 15 to 20 year long status quo: the over-inflated sense of self-importance that said fanbase projects onto Toonami though is what earns the block itself much of the scorn and derision, particularly when the pumped-up, rose-tinted, idealized view of it from the fanbase is contrasted directly with the reality of how blatantly stupid, shallow, and milquetoast the block itself actually was.

Raw, uncritical nostalgia is literally ALL that Toonami has or embodies, and its continued over-the-top worship within the broader English language fanbase for anime remains a central edifice for everything that is deeply uncritical, backwards, ahistorical, and anti-intellectual within the English speaking anime world, and lies at the heart of what prevents so many within fandom from evolving & developing their own sensibilities past that of a sugar-high 6th grader's, and thus maybe taking an active interest in helping to push the broader perception and anime anime within the Western world as something OTHER than nostalgia wankery for manchildren (or worse, sexual fetish fuel for deeply repressed, emotionally stunted shut-ins).
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:11 pm

What is your perception of US anime fandom based on? Not starting anything, just wondering.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by gokaiblue » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm

Yep. Just as I thought. I can't explain the appeal of Toonami to someone who hasn't experienced it. Can't say I didn't try.

I just take objection to someone telling me it's stupid to be a fan of something period. That's my entire point. I don't care what you think Toonami has done or whatever manifesto you have to sell me. A lot of these posts are kinda proving my point.
This is honestly a problem I see all across the board (myself included): we make assumptions about things based on only our own understandings, and if they differ from our perspective, we automatically think there's something wrong or that the perspective has no merit. We judge only on what we know, and when someone even suggests something that might differ from our view, we claim it either is invalid or question it. If I am wrong, please tell me, but I have seen and participated in these judgments. There are definitely some who exhibit this behavior more than others, however. This attitude can lead to fruitful discussions. After all, questioning ideas and their merit is at the heart of any discussion, but the way I've been seeing it here is mainly to shut ideas down or jump on people and claim they're wrong for thinking the way they do.
This will be the last I'll say on this subject: I don't care what you think of me being a Toonami fan. Call me sheltered or whatever, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, even if it supposedly narrowed the perception of anime. So what? I really don't think it's such a big deal. People like what they like, and I'm not here to judge them for it, just like I don't like being judged for what I like.

I'm probably just going to ignore this topic so I don't get sucked into an argument that I know I won't win. Quote me if you want, but don't expect a response.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:47 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:11 pm
What is your perception of US anime fandom based on? Not starting anything, just wondering.
15+ years of near-constant engagement with it's current post-Cartoon Network incarnation on a fairly broad-ranging level (across a vast litany of online communities, both major and minor), contrasted against more than a decade+ prior engagement with its older, pre-CN incarnation.

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
Yep. Just as I thought. I can't explain the appeal of Toonami to someone who hasn't experienced it. Can't say I didn't try.
"Someone who hasn't experienced it"? What are you even talking about here? I'm genuinely flummoxed. Dude... I've SEEN Toonami back in the day. I had a television with cable in the late 1990s and early-2000s, and I was long plenty enough plugged into anime fandom in general since well long prior enough to where something like Toonami would be a thing I would have a great deal of awareness of and exposure to at the time. You make it sound like I'm someone who missed out on Beatlemania back in the 60s or something. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've seen & been exposed to plenty enough of the block back during its "heyday". I wouldn't be on here shitting on it if I didn't know what the hell it was about or what it was like in the first place. I'm not pulling "Toonami was a vapid, shitty brand for mostly vapid, shitty anime" out of my ass: I'm basing that assessment of my having "experienced" it prior.

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
I just take objection to someone telling me it's stupid to be a fan of something period. That's my entire point.
What's the alternative? You want me to pretend that I don't think Toonami's brand, in and of itself, was stupid or that its fanbase's continued desperate clinging to it this long after the fact isn't cringey and absurd? To say nothing of their repeated, near constant ignoring and revisionist rewriting of basic history for the medium in North America in order to pump up the block's level of cultural impact and importance?

I mean, I can LIE to you if you want: but I think its beyond ridiculous, childish, and yes stupid that a grown person's feelings over a children's cartoon block from 20 years ago are SO hyper-sensitive that anyone calling said block out as dumb or silly would make them clutch their pearls.

I mean come on.

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
I don't care what you think Toonami has done or whatever manifesto you have to sell me. A lot of these posts are kinda proving my point.
What "manifesto"? "Sell you"? Proving WHAT "point"? What are you even talking about? The only thing I've gathered from you so far is that you're upset that I (some random internet nobody) thinks that a 20 year old kids' cartoon television block was dumb and that its grown adult fanbase's continued obsessive clinging to it are being ridiculous as well as ahistorical in their over-inflated appraisal of its broader significance to the medium of Japanese animation.

Anything else beyond that I'm left completely at a loss. If you've got a bigger point to express on this topic beyond "what you're saying upsets and bothers me", then by all means you're more than welcome to make it anytime you like. I'm all ears.

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
This is honestly a problem I see all across the board (myself included): we make assumptions about things based on only our own understandings, and if they differ from our perspective, we automatically think there's something wrong or that the perspective has no merit. We judge only on what we know, and when someone even suggests something that might differ from our view, we claim it either is invalid or question it. If I am wrong, please tell me, but I have seen and participated in these judgments. There are definitely some who exhibit this behavior more than others, however. This attitude can lead to fruitful discussions. After all, questioning ideas and their merit is at the heart of any discussion, but the way I've been seeing it here is mainly to shut ideas down or jump on people and claim they're wrong for thinking the way they do.
The premise outlined in that quote are 100% on point, and I basically agree with it completely. Except for, of course, the context over which party in this discussion it actually applies to.

Most of the kinds of Toonami-weaned anime fans that I'm talking about here tend to typically be people who are working to their conclusions and developing their perspectives ENTIRELY from their own personal perspective, while simultaneously COMPLETELY disregarding EVERYTHING that happened within the medium and its Western fanbase that came before them.

What you're (I think?) suggesting that I'm doing here - working backwards to a flawed conclusion from purely my own personal, subjective perspective - is literally the EXACT opposite of what I've been talking about here all along, and shows me that literally almost NOTHING of the substance of what I'm saying here has been getting through.

One of the main problems that I've been babbling on about here right along is that a gigantic contingent of typically Toonami-bred fans VERY often tend to be the kinds of people who FLAGRANTLY disregard even the most BASIC history of the anime medium's Western/American presence prior to their first being introduced to it via Toonami. Their ENTIRE perception of anime literally begins right from "when I first heard of it on Toonami" and going forward from there COMPLETELY ignore/deny/disregard ANYTHING that might predate them, no matter how important or critical to historical context for the medium's Western history.

For my own part, I'm going off of not just my own personal perspective (which obviously stems from long well before most Toonami fans: by at least a decade), but also actual history that PREDATES MY OWN introduction to anime. Unlike most Toonami fans, I remain cognizant and well aware that I'm HARDLY among the very first wave of fans who glommed onto anime in the U.S. and that there was a VAST and critically important history that predates even my own late 80s introduction. Hell, I was aware of and cognizant of that history EVEN WHEN I WAS A SMALL KID at the time myself!

I'm completely at a loss as to how you could even vaguely come to the conclusion that I'm someone who is "making assumptions from solely my own understanding, and regarding any perspective that differs from mine as innately wrong" (per the quote) when I'm literally the one person here who is arguing on behalf of basic historical awareness of what happened before a person's personal cognizance of something: contrasted against the vast swath of people within contemporary anime fandom (particularly in Toonami circles) who for more than a decade and a half now have been continually pushing the narrative that "all history with this medium in the Western world officially started when WE first took notice of it, and everything before that can be totally disregarded as non-existent".

Basically a crucial part of my ENTIRE point here is predicated upon the idea that "history doesn't somehow magically start only when YOU PERSONALLY became aware of and invested in something" (which is how a vast chunk of Toonami fandom tends to define their ENTIRE conception of anime's Western history)... and yet you're making the argument (again, at least I think you are), via that quote, that I'm the one who is simply arguing purely from my own, subjective perspective while disregarding anyone else's!

Unreal. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
This will be the last I'll say on this subject: I don't care what you think of me being a Toonami fan.
I don't think literally ANYTHING of you being a Toonami fan, nor do I give a shit in the slightest whether or not you are. This entire subject was never at all about you specifically in the first place. This whole discussion wasn't about "putting you on trial". This whole "victim/martyr complex" shit from various people on this forum/community is SO beyond played out and exhausting. With all due respect (and this applies to literally EVERYONE who over-personalizes this shit in general): get the fuck over yourself.

The whole "is he talking about ME?!?!!" shtick in general is something that really, REALLY needs to die. For the 840 quadrillion time: I'm not singling out ANYONE within this fucking thread/forum. I'm speaking in VERY broad strokes about an entire SUBSET of fandom that is WAY bigger and WAY more pervasive than any one, lone random schmuck in this particular forum.

What a single, solitary, random person likes, does not like, or thinks about whatever... I honestly couldn't BEGIN to give less of a shit about. This is about MUCH larger, broader patterns of thought and views put forth by the vast bulk of the community as a MUCH larger entity.

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
Call me sheltered or whatever,
I never called you sheltered at any point, but okay. :eh: :eh: :eh:

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, even if it supposedly narrowed the perception of anime. So what? I really don't think it's such a big deal.
This right here is the heart and soul of the problem that I'm trying to get at.

First of all: we're not talking about any one particular franchise or series or standalone work here. We're talking about an ENTIRE CREATIVE MEDIUM. One with a GARGANTUAN, dense, decades-long history and BOUNDLESS depth to what its accomplished creatively throughout more than half a century and change.

Of COURSE it matters and OF COURSE its a big fucking deal. At least if you're someone who cares about art and creative media as something more than just a consumer product or as something more than brainless entertainment to rot out your mind out on for hours at a time.

If however, you're someone for whom art/creative media is generally NOT a whole lot much more than those things, if an endless parade of children's television cartoons and Hollywood summer tentpole features and the like are all largely the sum total definition to you of what constitutes valid and relevant media: then sure, obviously the reaction to an entire creative medium's creative depth being gutted within the broader mainstream consciousness would be "So what? Who cares?"

The analogy I tend to use the most often goes like this: forget anime or cartoons in general (if possible), and think of live action film. Imagine a world where both popular and critical focus throughout the culture had NEVER gone to ANY film that wasn't a feathery, lightweight children's film. Imagine a world with no Scorsese, no De Palma, no Fritz Lang, no Bergman, no Hitchcock, no Spike Lee, etc.

Imagine the ENTIRE landscape of live action film was SOLELY defined by either Disney fare or sappy family comedies. Imagine a creative landscape where something like Home Alone or Night at the Museum and the like were the absolute creative height and pinnacle of artistic achievement that film had been widely recognized for attaining. Furthermore, imagine ANYTHING that aimed even SLIGHTLY higher than that ilk would be roundly and routinely either ignored completely or derided and pushed aside entirely.

With a few relatively RARE exceptions (your odd Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Bebop, Lain, etc) this is by and large more or less effectively the type of landscape that has been carved out within North America for Japanese anime. Just replace "family friendly comedies" in that above equation with "Shonen" (and creepy fetish shit, but that's neither here nor there).

And while Toonami in NO way is solely responsible for this (tons of other factors were also obviously at play)... it certainly played a fairly decently heavy role in helping this skewed, fucked up paradigm along. And more than Toonami itself, its diehard fanbase who act as the self-appointed "hardcore anime experts" both online and within broader fandom.

Needless to say, yes this kind of completely fucked paradigm - where vapid children's fluff is overwhelmingly overvalued and over-fixated on across the vast spectrum of both casuals, enthusiasts, and even critics alike, largely to the direct exclusion and expense of a great majority of anything of greater creative substance - is something that ABSOLUTELY and OVERWHELMINGLY matters more than ANYONE'S personal nostalgic attachment to whatever. And like, not just in my personal opinion: this matters more than anything else to a creative medium, I would argue, on fairly objective grounds.

Assuming once again that is, that art and creative media means something more to you than brainless noise or filler, and that you perceive art to be of great importance and value across both the broader culture as a whole as well as to the personal enrichment and intellectual/emotional growth of the individual. That kind of baseline personal framework that you're working from makes quite literally all the difference in the world in how you perceive this kind of subject.

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
People like what they like, and I'm not here to judge them for it, just like I don't like being judged for what I like.
Again: no one here is judging YOU. I'm not judging you, nor do I particularly care to. I don't fucking know you from a hole in the wall. This ENTIRE conversation was NEVER about YOU. YOU made it about you.

This is about a VERY large and far-ranging swath of fandom as a collective, cumulative whole and about its impact on the cultural perception and fate of an entire medium of art. Its a MUCH bigger topic than any one single lone individual. I don't have the slightest interest or care to nitpick and police people's personal taste down to the individual level.

That's NEVER what this subject has been about for me, and the fact that I have to CONTINUALLY repeat that point (because so many people are fundamentally unable to get the fuck over themselves and think about the broader reach and scope of a topic as it extends BEYOND themselves) is fucking excruciating.

gokaiblue wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:12 pm
I'm probably just going to ignore this topic so I don't get sucked into an argument that I know I won't win. Quote me if you want, but don't expect a response.
Feel free to respond or not respond as you like. I'm good either way.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:02 pm

I enjoyed Toonami for the five years or so of my adolescence that I watched. My teenage years would not have been the same without it. But after that I moved on. I can definitely understand the nostalgia for it, but I agree that web-shrines created and maintained by grown folks might just be a bit much. Maybe not, I'm not entirely sure.

I think Toonami was in many ways a double-edged sword. As much as I appreciate it, I can understand why it may have had such a negative effect on the overall Anime fandom at large.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:25 pm

Not stepping into the massive wall of a discussion about whether or not liking Toonami as an adult is okay or not (other than to say that, uh, of course it is? I'm sure some people take their love of it too far, but that's true for basically everything, so...not really sure what the point of singling out that is, but okay, sure, whatever), but as far as will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball content goes? I figure it'll do well enough. They've got a ton of other great shows on there that will likely still pull in pretty good ratings, and it's not like the block didn't ever not have Dragon Ball stuff on it before, both back in the day and in the more recent incarnation.

That and, while we may not know for certain or have any idea when, it's still pretty likely that we'll get another show of some kind eventually, and you can bet that as soon as they can, Toonami will pick that show up too.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:47 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:25 pm
Not stepping into the massive wall of a discussion about whether or not liking Toonami as an adult is okay or not
This is a fairly reductive spin on what was being said in the first place.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm

Toonami is a double edge sword to me. I do think having an anime block for kids is not bad and know many people who got into anime because of DBZ on CN that are really awesome people. Sadly, most of the anime on Toonami was bad. There was probably maybe like 10 good anime in total before Toonami's rival in 2012. I don't like the impact that it did cause since it made the industry to focus more on dumb kids anime instead.

Say good bye to The Guyver, Fist of the North Star, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D, Urusei Yatsura, Robot Carnival, Wicked City, Golgo 13, Bubblegum Crisis, etc. and say hello to DBZ (A very bad dub of it), Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Medabots, Rave Master, etc.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:46 pm

I have a hard time believing the industry moved away from more adult material and put all its focus on what you deem to be tripe. My guess is more mature material got as much focus as it got before.
Say good bye to The Guyver, Fist of the North Star, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D, Urusei Yatsura, Robot Carnival, Wicked City, Golgo 13, Bubblegum Crisis, etc. and say hello to DBZ (A very bad dub of it), Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Medabots, Rave Master, etc.
The first list is full of shows that had VERY short runs, not to mention already over and released. And as an aside, Akira is WAY overrated. The shows you mentioned in the negative column have a much longer run. It's not a wonder why they get a lot of focus. And there's no "good bye". They aren't gone. Anyone can find them with ease.

I think you guys are blowing this issue way out of proportion. We are living in an era of niche.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:08 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm
Toonami is a double edge sword to me. I do think having an anime block for kids is not bad and know many people who got into anime because of DBZ on CN that are really awesome people. Sadly, most of the anime on Toonami was bad. There was probably maybe like 10 good anime in total before Toonami's rival in 2012. I don't like the impact that it did cause since it made the industry to focus more on dumb kids anime instead.

Say good bye to The Guyver, Fist of the North Star, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D, Urusei Yatsura, Robot Carnival, Wicked City, Golgo 13, Bubblegum Crisis, etc. and say hello to DBZ (A very bad dub of it), Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Medabots, Rave Master, etc.
Digimon and Medabots have NEVER aired on Toonami. Nice Strawman. And Jason De Marco HATED Yu Gi Oh and got rid of it ASAP.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Super Sonic » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:09 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm

Say good bye to The Guyver, Fist of the North Star, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D, Urusei Yatsura, Robot Carnival, Wicked City, Golgo 13, Bubblegum Crisis, etc. and say hello to DBZ (A very bad dub of it), Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Medabots, Rave Master, etc.
You are aware the revival did air Akira, basically uncut aside from f-bombs and boobies right? Hell, they aired "Deadman Wonderland" and "Black Lagoon" which are definitely not kids' shows. I'd say the same for "Pop Team Epic" which was different as it was a comedy rather than an action series.

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:44 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:08 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm
Toonami is a double edge sword to me. I do think having an anime block for kids is not bad and know many people who got into anime because of DBZ on CN that are really awesome people. Sadly, most of the anime on Toonami was bad. There was probably maybe like 10 good anime in total before Toonami's rival in 2012. I don't like the impact that it did cause since it made the industry to focus more on dumb kids anime instead.

Say good bye to The Guyver, Fist of the North Star, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D, Urusei Yatsura, Robot Carnival, Wicked City, Golgo 13, Bubblegum Crisis, etc. and say hello to DBZ (A very bad dub of it), Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Medabots, Rave Master, etc.
Digimon and Medabots have NEVER aired on Toonami. Nice Strawman. And Jason De Marco HATED Yu Gi Oh and got rid of it ASAP.
I think his point is those shows became the forefront of what the average joe, and even self-proclaimed “otaku” think of when they think of anime. Which Toonami was heavily responsible for contributing to that mindset.

Digimon and Medabots may have never aired on Toonami but they wouldn’t have looked out of place if they had.

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ABED
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:50 pm

I don't think Toonami is responsible for that. They responded to audience demand.
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Cure Dragon 255
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:05 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:44 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:08 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm
Toonami is a double edge sword to me. I do think having an anime block for kids is not bad and know many people who got into anime because of DBZ on CN that are really awesome people. Sadly, most of the anime on Toonami was bad. There was probably maybe like 10 good anime in total before Toonami's rival in 2012. I don't like the impact that it did cause since it made the industry to focus more on dumb kids anime instead.

Say good bye to The Guyver, Fist of the North Star, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D, Urusei Yatsura, Robot Carnival, Wicked City, Golgo 13, Bubblegum Crisis, etc. and say hello to DBZ (A very bad dub of it), Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Medabots, Rave Master, etc.
Digimon and Medabots have NEVER aired on Toonami. Nice Strawman. And Jason De Marco HATED Yu Gi Oh and got rid of it ASAP.
I think his point is those shows became the forefront of what the average joe, and even self-proclaimed “otaku” think of when they think of anime. Which Toonami was heavily responsible for contributing to that mindset.

Digimon and Medabots may have never aired on Toonami but they wouldn’t have looked out of place if they had.
I want to be reasonable, but as soon as one resorts to strawmen I lose respect for them. Also Urusei Yatsura has never been dubbed other than a handful of episodes and movies, so no, its not Toonami's fault that they didnt show it. Oh and Akira was shown on Revived Toonami. And as much as I despise the man, Studio Ghibli's Miyazaki Movies aired UNCUT on Daytime CN Toonami to celebrate him.

EDIT: I want to make it clear I'm only talking about the person who said that. Not Kunzait. As much as he gives Toonami fans a hard time, he's not using strawmen and is actually making compelling arguments. I admire his passion.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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