Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:39 pm

I don’t really understand why people having an attachment to Toonami or children’s entertainment in general should be considered an awful thing, especially when this is a forum that’s dedicated entirely to a silly children’s franchise that’s hardly known for being profound. I realize that’s not entirely what Kunzait was saying, but it still sounds somewhat condescending to describe people who like Toonami as having been “sheltered middle school kids”. I don’t see why that’s necessary.

To be clear, I don’t care for Toonami. It’s just a cable advertising block. I thought it was cool back in the day, but it’s obsolete nowadays. Still, if some people have an attachment to it, I’m not sure why they need to be spoken of as if they’re a bunch of ignorant weirdos.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Super Sonic » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:19 pm

Kunzait is an older person who at the time DB ended in 2003, quite a few Funimation regulars like Justin Briner, Alexis Tipton and Byn Appril would've been too young for him/her to date. (No clue on Kunzati's personal life or gender hence referring to women and men who would've been 12, 14 and 7 at the time). So there's a generation gap with quite a few fans who were in school still during the 2000s.

But yeah, while I don't watch as much, think the block will. After all, Samurai Jack season 5 was very well received, though like some folks, would've liked to have tweaked the ending a little. Y'all know what I mean.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Dr. Casey » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:18 am

Kunzait's a male, and he's actually not too far outside the age range of the average Kanzenshuu forum member.
Kunzait_83 wrote:to say nothing of it somehow being "ground zero" all things anime in the U.S. (which is as outright laughably ahistorical, and moronic as claiming that something like Men In Black was somehow "ground zero" for all things sci fi in film) is SO overwhelmingly widespread and so oft trumpeted as stone cold, iron clad "fact", that it MORE than earns the bile aimed its way in kind given the reality of how cringingly lame and narrow-reaching its scope of anime actually was in the grand scheme of things.
Hmm... some thoughts on that.

It's definitely true that some people think that the generation of anime fans who got their beginnings in the mid to late 90s were the very first origins of anime fandom in the United States. I've seen people around my age make this claim, with no wiggle room for any sort of nuance or ambiguity.

On the other hand, though, there are some times where the ambiguity of language can make it come across as though people are saying something which they are not. For one thing, it can depend upon your definition of the word 'mainstream.'

To me, 'mainstream' basically means that, if you walk up to a random person on the street or at a store and raise that particular subject with them, you can almost take for granted that they will know about it (if not be a fan of that something themselves). If you assume that any given adult wandering around Wal-Mart has a cell phone in their pocket and spends a considerable amount of time using it, it's highly unlikely that you will be wrong. If you assume they enjoy watching videos on YouTube, you're more than likely correct. If you assume that they know who Donald Trump is, that's a bet that you have rather low odds of losing.

It's possible for something to be significantly popular but not reach the mantle of mainstream status. A novel, TV series, or some other kind of product can have three million people in the US that are aware of its existence and very fond of it, but it wouldn't be mainstream (at least under my definition) because the other 99 percent are still unaware.

I don't know if the following influences your opinions to any degree (though even if it does, it's a minor enough influence that it doesn't really matter or impact the validity of what you're saying; your statements about the overall trajectory of anime's popularity in the US is correct either way, so I guess I'm just talking to hear myself talk here), but sometimes if you're part of a sub-culture, it can be difficult to properly gauge its visiblility. When I came across the emulator and ROM scene as an 11 year old in 1999, it seemed like a pretty happening place. New ROMs were being uploaded to places like Vimm's Lair every single day, the Visitor Counter (because no 90s website was complete without one) never failed to display higher numbers every time you visited, and if you posted a question on the forums you'd likely get a reply within 20 or 30 minutes. But with all that said, I would be incredibly surprised if there was even a single other person in my 6th grade class that had any kind of idea what emulation was.

GameFAQs would be another example. I first came across it the Christmas of 1998 to help me with the Deku Tree in Ocarina of Time, because I'm a very dumb person with an IQ of 3 and can't into puzzles. Amongst those who were both into the internet, as well as had a more than casual interest in gaming, you could be pretty certain that they knew of GameFAQs. Dozens of new guides and reviews were submitted every day, and the website in general felt like a popular hub for activity. Far as my 5th grade classroom goes, though, I would be very surprised if even a single other person in there besides myself knew what a GameFAQs was. Maybe one or so other person at the max. As for people who enjoyed videogames but weren't super into the internet, GameFAQs probably didn't start becoming their best friend until somewhere in the range of 2001 to 2003.

You could also subdivide things further into 'mainstreamness of awareness' and 'mainstreamness of usage.' Smartphones and text messaging would fit the bill for both. As for things that fit the former but not the latter, I guess that would be like if you walked up to some randomer at Wal-Mart and ask them about The Bachelor, House, or Dexter. They would almost certainly have heard of those things, but the odds of them being fans, or having watched more than just a tiny scrap of said series (at best), is relatively low.

All of this means that, depending upon your definitions of words like 'popular' or 'mainstream' or whatever, one can claim that anime didn't become fully mainstream in the US until the later 90s and that such a claim can come from an understanding of anime's history and development, rather than ignorance.

Here's a couple of my thoughts, as someone who subscribes to the "anime underwent a major spike in awareness and popularity during the late 90s" idea. One thought experiment you can do is this: if you asked a random person what anime was during xxxx year, how would they respond?

In 1993, my kindergarten classmates would have gone "Japanimation? Those are the cartoons with the weird animation and the bad voice acting." In 2003, my 10th grade classmates would have gone "Anime? Yeah, those are those weird cartoons. People who like anime are a bunch of nerds."

In a subtle kind of way, that distinction is telling. In 1993, awareness of anime was mainstream enough that all the kids in my class would have been united in their disregard for those weird cartoons; but in 2003, almost any given random classmate would have wrinkled their nose not just at anime, but at the fandom as well. There's an implication in there that, by this point, the anime fanbase was more visible and, by extension, significantly larger than what it once was. (I'm not saying that anime fans didn't have any kind of reputation, for better or worse, during the olden days. Just that by the early 2000s, "anime fans are nerds" was such a common conception that almost any random boy or girl felt this way. In the kindergarten example, fans don't factor into the equation at all. Though I guess it's possible that my rural area isn't the most representative sample.)

Another point of contrast would be that, though anime was available in your average video store by the late 80s or early 90s and people like Spielberg were crediting anime movies as inspiration for their work, most people probably wouldn't have any significant awareness of anime (aside from on a very blurry "lol Japanimation is weird" level). It was probably mainstream amongst people who loved film enough to actively seek out things to watch on a more regular basis, the same way that GameFAQs would have been mainstream amongst people who were both non-casual gamers and internet dwellers in 1999; but if you were someone that just watched a couple of sitcoms after coming home from work and went to the movies a handful of times per year, anime could easily evade your notice. You used the word 'pseudo-mainstream' once to describe this era, and I think that's a good word for it.

That's a stark difference from Pokemon at the height of Pokemania. If you existed in 1999, it was literally almost impossible not to have heard about Pokemon. It reached the ears of an entirely different caste of people, and was something that at least existed in your vocabulary whether you were a soccer mom who never watched anything except Oprah, a 50 year old farmer who only used TV as a source of political news, or an 80 year old grandfather with an excitable grandchild who rambled to you about Pokemon while you watched reruns of Andy Griffith.

Anime's Western fanbase was large enough that it could be described as 'popular' and 'successful' in the later 80s and early 90s and had come a long way from its earliest origins, and it was mainstream in terms of awareness on an extremely blurry level (Japanimation, weird cartoons, bad animation, voice acting doesn't match the words, etc)... but in terms of actually becoming a fan, or of understanding 'Japanimation' on anything but the most vague and stereotypical of levels, there are more conditions to match here (ie, have enough of an interest in film and media in general that you're somewhat keyed in to what's going on in the media world). By the later 1990s and early 2000s, those shackles are off. If you speak English and don't live in a cave, you know what Pokemon is. If you're a fan of Pokemon in kindergarten or first grade circa 1998-2000, you're much more likely to have someone who shares your enthusiasm for the series located in your classroom than I would have had I been an anime fan in kindergarten for Ranma or whatever.

As for my own personal background/perspective, I dipped my toes into anime for the first time around 1992 when I was 5, but wouldn't become an avid fan until many years later. The first anime that I remember ever watching was Aladdin and the Wonderful Lamp, which we owned on Beta and was a movie right around ten years old at the time. I had an intuitive sort of understanding that the movie was foreign and that it came before my time, but that it wasn't a terribly old product that belonged to the distant past, either (I didn't have a mental model in my mind for what each decade meant yet, specifically, but this was the general vibe that things from the 1970s and 1980s gave me). I also just naturally figured that if foreign cartoons like this existed, there was probably a collection of people that enjoyed them. I could have become a relative old-timer had I stuck with anime beyond that, but I didn't. :P Oh well.

All that's to say that, sometimes, there could be miscommunication at play. There's definitely some people who honestly do think that 1995-ish was ground zero and I understand your irritation there, but sometimes people can say "Anime became mainstream in the late 90s" and say as such with an understanding of Western anime history. So I dunno, there might be certain edge cases where you should ask someone what precisely they mean to get a better idea of what their thought processes are.

As for the kinds of shows that the Western fandom puts emphasis on, I think there's a little bit of a "If you build them, they will come" element here. The older generations might have placed more priority on 'mature' anime, but that's also likely because the OVA market at the time meant that such arthouse anime works were being produced on a regular basis. If OVAs and anime movies weren't a thing that existed, an anime fandom still more than likely would have arisen. It simply would have focused on different works - that is, focused purely on TV serials - and included some different people (ie some fans that loved OVAs might have dipped out if the entirety of the anime landscape consisted of TV anime, like the deluge of mecha anime during the 1980s or the wholesome, classy family-friendly adaptations of literature stories like Tom Sawyer or Anne of Green Gables that were a mainstay of many anime seasons during the 70s and 80s).

Of course, the OVA market is very different now and has been for a long time. OVAs nowadays are mostly just bonus episodes appended to TV series. Looking at old anime charts, this was a trend that started around 2004, maybe? OVAs prior to that point still tended to be original works, even if the style that you yourself enjoy mostly dried up before 2003.

On the reverse side of the coin, anime with more 'mature' styles released nowadays actually tend to be quite popular. Devilman Crybaby, Castlevania, Junji Ito, Carole and Tuesday, and so on, almost invariably receive a lot of attention and discussion. Despite the common wisdom, slice-of-life series generally sell terribly (with most of the successes - Lucky Star, K-On, etc - coming from when the genre was still young and something unique and different), and in any given season the best sellers are generally those that show some kind of narrative ambition. I think it's entirely possible that the 2020s will see a rise in such series, given that Netflix (and the Western world in general) is playing a larger role in anime development, and since 2017 has pumped out its own (generally more mature) series on a regular basis.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:08 am

Well, the anime craze started in the early 2000s which was when DBZ, Toonami's flagship series, was really killing it with the North American audience.

While it's a stretch to credit Toonami (entirely) to introducing the masses to anime, it's undeniably a huge part in popularizing it within the west and there's nothing wrong with that.

Let the normies like what they like while Kunzait can sit back and enjoy his "real" anime.

Different folks for different strokes.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:17 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:50 pm
I don't think Toonami is responsible for that. They responded to audience demand.
To be fair to Toonami they didn’t just do the commercially viable toy advertisements kids anime. They did do shows like Tenchi Muyo and Outlaw Star as well. Even getting the actors from Tenchi Muyo at least to re-record dialog, 5 years from when they first dubbed the show, to allow the show to be suitable for kids broadcast.

Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z were mostly likely broadcasted because Toonami needed content (I think before that they were mostly just doing Superfriends reruns and the like) and those shows were probably cheap to obtain the broadcast rights for. And their popularity kind of launched the direction Toonami went into.

You can’t really blame Toonami for going with the formula that worked for them (anime mostly appealing to boys around age 6-12) but I think Kunzait’s frustration is with 20 and 30 somethings who still live and breath by Toonami.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:20 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:08 pm

Digimon and Medabots have NEVER aired on Toonami. Nice Strawman. And Jason De Marco HATED Yu Gi Oh and got rid of it ASAP.
I was talking about how the anime industry went from those titles to more kid friendly titles. I do remember you had anime and manga fans online back in the early 2000s talking about how the anime industry is focusing more on dumb kids stuff than the anime titles that they want. The VHS generation did help make anime more well known and titles like MD Geist made it on the top 10 video charts back in the day. I still respect Toonami for being a gateway for many people, I wish they had better anime to air in my opinion. Most of their anime on the old Toonami in my opinion was bad compare to the stuff that Sci-Fi, Starz and TechTV had at the time in my opinion.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:
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Say good bye to The Guyver, Fist of the North Star, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D, Urusei Yatsura, Robot Carnival, Wicked City, Golgo 13, Bubblegum Crisis, etc. and say hello to DBZ (A very bad dub of it), Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Medabots, Rave Master, etc.
You are aware the revival did air Akira, basically uncut aside from f-bombs and boobies right? Hell, they aired "Deadman Wonderland" and "Black Lagoon" which are definitely not kids' shows. I'd say the same for "Pop Team Epic" which was different as it was a comedy rather than an action series.
That was much later on. The newer Toonami is much better at picking out anime (for the most part) than they did back in the day. Also, back on topic, Toonami does not need Dragon Ball to surive. The new Toonami has done fine before Kai and Super was added on their block. I think the Blade Runner anime and Uzamki will do well for them next year.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:39 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:17 am
ABED wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:50 pm
I don't think Toonami is responsible for that. They responded to audience demand.
To be fair to Toonami they didn’t just do the commercially viable toy advertisements kids anime. They did do shows like Tenchi Muyo and Outlaw Star as well. Even getting the actors from Tenchi Muyo at least to re-record dialog, 5 years from when they first dubbed the show, to allow the show to be suitable for kids broadcast.

Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z were mostly likely broadcasted because Toonami needed content (I think before that they were mostly just doing Superfriends reruns and the like) and those shows were probably cheap to obtain the broadcast rights for. And their popularity kind of launched the direction Toonami went into.

You can’t really blame Toonami for going with the formula that worked for them (anime mostly appealing to boys around age 6-12) but I think Kunzait’s frustration is with 20 and 30 somethings who still live and breath by Toonami.
I can't remember the sequence of events. Which came before which - Toonami or DBZ on CN?
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Dr. Casey » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm

Just did a Google search to check because I had no idea; the Funi dub originally ran on WB and UPN from September 1996 to May 1998, and migrated to Toonami August 1998. Toonami first started the March of 1997.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:15 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm
Just did a Google search to check because I had no idea; the Funi dub originally ran on WB and UPN from September 1996 to May 1998, and migrated to Toonami August 1998. Toonami first started the March of 1997.
WB? I was certain it aired on Fox Kids, especially given Saban’s involvement.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Dr. Casey » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:44 pm

We're both right, looks like it aired on all three
they partnered with Saban Entertainment (known at the time for shows such as Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and X-Men) to distribute their adaptation to Fox, UPN and The WB affiliate stations.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:19 pm

Some of you (Kunzait) get way too into these arguments... Just let people enjoy what they want to enjoy.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:49 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm
Just did a Google search to check because I had no idea; the Funi dub originally ran on WB and UPN from September 1996 to May 1998, and migrated to Toonami August 1998. Toonami first started the March of 1997.
Don't you mean the Ocean dub? Funimation did help distribute the series but didn't actually start dubbing till 1999 with 'season 3'.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by MetaMoss » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:53 pm

I'm frankly impressed that Toonami's revival has lasted this long. Though, in this age of streaming, I imagine having a whole block of shows (with a variable lineup) with its own devoted fandom is a powerful asset to a traditional TV channel. That's why I'm thinking that Toonami will be sticking around for a little while yet, even without new Dragon Ball on the horizon.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:18 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:49 pm
Dr. Casey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm
Just did a Google search to check because I had no idea; the Funi dub originally ran on WB and UPN from September 1996 to May 1998, and migrated to Toonami August 1998. Toonami first started the March of 1997.
Don't you mean the Ocean dub? Funimation did help distribute the series but didn't actually start dubbing till 1999 with 'season 3'.
FUNimation were the ones in charge of the dub. Ocean were simply the ones who provided the voice work.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:31 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:49 pm
Dr. Casey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm
Just did a Google search to check because I had no idea; the Funi dub originally ran on WB and UPN from September 1996 to May 1998, and migrated to Toonami August 1998. Toonami first started the March of 1997.
Don't you mean the Ocean dub? Funimation did help distribute the series but didn't actually start dubbing till 1999 with 'season 3'.
Those first 53 dubbed episodes were every bit Funimation's product as all the material with the in-house cast that followed it. If you hire someone to paint your house it's still your house, the painters are just hired guns.

Speaking of which, and it would obviously never happen but if Toonami really needed fresh Dragon Ball content they could always air Kai again, but this time with the Ocean dub. It would be like a treat for people who were fans since the days they aired the old Saban episodes.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:49 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:18 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:49 pm
Dr. Casey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm
Just did a Google search to check because I had no idea; the Funi dub originally ran on WB and UPN from September 1996 to May 1998, and migrated to Toonami August 1998. Toonami first started the March of 1997.
Don't you mean the Ocean dub? Funimation did help distribute the series but didn't actually start dubbing till 1999 with 'season 3'.
FUNimation were the ones in charge of the dub. Ocean were simply the ones who provided the voice work.
Well in there's no need to specify any portion of the series as the FUNimation Dub.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:55 pm

If you want to be precise, it's all the FUNimation dub. Calling it the Ocean dub is just a nice short hand.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:06 am

Dr. Casey wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:44 pm
We're both right, looks like it aired on all three
they partnered with Saban Entertainment (known at the time for shows such as Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and X-Men) to distribute their adaptation to Fox, UPN and The WB affiliate stations.
It aired on more than even that: it was on local CBS affiliates in some cases. It was a true syndication show offered up to any local network that wanted to pick it up.
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:19 pm
Some of you (Kunzait) get way too into these arguments... Just let people enjoy what they want to enjoy.
Some of you get way too involved in mini-modding and policing other peoples' conversations... just let people talk about what they want to talk about.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:11 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:31 pm
Those first 53 dubbed episodes were every bit Funimation's product as all the material with the in-house cast that followed it. If you hire someone to paint your house it's still your house, the painters are just hired guns.
I almost quite literally spat out my cereal upon reading this because I used that exact same analogy just last week in my latest video. :P
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:57 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:11 am
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:31 pm
Those first 53 dubbed episodes were every bit Funimation's product as all the material with the in-house cast that followed it. If you hire someone to paint your house it's still your house, the painters are just hired guns.
I almost quite literally spat out my cereal upon reading this because I used that exact same analogy just last week in my latest video. :P
Ha, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't inspired by your video. You are our local Dragon Ball historian and always full of insight. I'd recommend anyone to check it out:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92fUvJiEfIU

Another way of looking at it is that Ocean were never the rights holder for Dragon Ball as they have always been outsourced by other companies making their own dubs. It just so happens in those first two seasons the company calling the shots was Funimation.
Selling
- Arrival DVD single
- Betrayal DVD single

Looking For
- Showdown DVD single
- Madman Level 1.1

If interested PM with offers

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