Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

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Kokonoe
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kokonoe » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:11 pm
Ecchi isn't simply just anime that has some level of sexual content, but rather its anime that contains an INCREDIBLY specific style of humor and storytelling that revolves entirely around extremely over the top sexual situations as its core plot themes (which are generally little more than a thin clothesline in which to hang sexual gags as well as gratuitous upskirt or downshirt shots of the female characters).


Titles like Najica or Ikki Tousen or Tona-Gura! are some examples of Ecchi anime just off the top of my head.

Ninja Scroll is a Chanbara-style action/martial arts/ninja fantasy anime. It has nudity and sexual scenes, but NONE of them are portrayed over the top or comedically in the LEAST bit: they are VASTLY grounded and the majority of them are in no way gratuitous and are 100% rooted in character development and storytelling (particularly when it comes to the character Kagero). Its as straightforwardly serious and earnest in its dramatic approach (both to its sexual content, and just in general) as can be, with not so much as even the BAREST hint of the wacky humor and over the top "fanservice" style of cheesecake that ENTIRELY defines Ecchi to its core.

Ecchi is oftentimes (though not necessarily always) also considered a kind of "soft/light" pornography (softer than full-blown Hentai generally). If Ninja Scroll were a live action film, literally fucking NO ONE would consider it to be "pornographic" in the slightest bit. There's a couple of graphic sex scenes in it, but they're 100% played for straight drama (and are the absolute farthest thing from eroticized: they're fairly clinical and even somewhat stomach churningly uncomfortable to watch, and purposefully so) and tie directly into the storyline and character arc of Kagero as a survivor of a lifetime of sexual abuse and being used as a sex object by men throughout her life (the story is set in Feudal Japan during the Edo period, a time where many Japanese women were often used and discarded as little more than concubines, particularly by politicians, military leaders, and other such powerful figures).
No one? What is this then?

NSFW warning.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5exq ... roll15.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1pGtXcfmabs/T ... e-down.jpg
http://blog.alltheanime.com/wp-content/ ... 00-375.jpg

Whatever you want to call it, you don't draw these scenes like that if you're not trying to make people horny. This ain't a serious portrayal of rape, it's there to be horny.
And yes, there's a lot of gore in it. And the problem with that is.... what exactly? How does the presence of blood & gore, all by itself, somehow lessen the degree of depth or maturity in a given work? I'm certainly not saying that it therefore INCREASES it either: but the idea that a work being graphically violent somehow means that its somehow innately more shallow and unserious is JUST as wrong, nonsensical, and ridiculous as saying that graphic violence/gore innately makes something more mature. Gore is little more than a singular element in a given work, neither innately good nor bad, and its all contingent upon how its used and to what effect.

And the gore in Ninja Scroll *certainly* by no means doesn't detract from its overall quality, and largely just adds visceral impact to many of its actions scenes (which are largely phenomenal and largely considered iconic classic examples of action sequences in anime overall). Its level of gore is certainly in keeping and of a kind with that of a vast majority of Chanbara (Feudal-set Samurai/Ninja tales) works in general, which largely tend to be fairly graphic and bloody affairs overall. Lady Snowblood for example is a Chanbara manga (and live action film) that is RIFE with graphic blood and gore, and its generally (and rightly) considered an elegantly and intelligently crafted classic of the genre.
I don't like overly violent shows. I personally think that the glorification of these gorefests is troubling. That's a whole other topic though.
But that being said, its CERTAINLY a tremendous deal more thoughtful, genuinely mature, and exceedingly subtle in how it approaches its sexual themes (which are focused on exploring sexual violence, abuse, and trauma, not on pleasing or pandering to a horny male audience) than is/was/are a gigantic swath of the kinds of Shonen that aired on Cartoon Network (be it Toonami or Adult Swim): sexual themes which are very much far from and indeed (I cannot stress enough) the polar diametric opposite of merely just the kind of gratuitous, dopey cheesecake that defines Echhi.
Can't say I agree at all being that women are being put on display getting raped for titulation. That's worse than any fan service those shows offered. If anything the women in Ninja Scroll are one dimensional and just there as rewards and motivations for the male characters.
Virtually nearly ALL of those shows (other than MAYBE Outlaw Star: I'm not 100% sure about that one off the top of my head) are children's anime. Like, SMALL children. Literally almost every single one of those listed titles. Kenshin, Hakusho, Gundam Wing, and CERTAINLY the likes of Dragon Ball, G Gundam, and Hamtaro were made for and directly aimed at elementary school children in Japan.
In what world if Big O, Kenshin, Outlaw Star a children show? Did you even watch these? Do you understand what they explore?

The society aspect of Big O is fucking insane and what is real and what is illusion, right or wrong.

Kenshin in general is about a huge self reflection and a mature tale of forgiving oneself.

Outlaw Star is simply not for kids that should be obvious.

Gundam Wing goes hella into politics it isn't just some kids show lol.

Yes I'm aware Hamtaro is for kids, hence I said most.
And while a few of those are certainly children's anime that I happen to very much enjoy myself (particularly Yu Yu Hakusho, and obviously DB): not a SINGLE one of them come within MILES of touching the level of depth, subtlety, and maturity one would generally find in an ACTUAL "mature" anime intended for actual adults (like virtually anything directed by Satoshi Kon, Isao Takahata, or Mamoru Oshii).

And honestly: calling a list that contains fucking Hamtaro of all things as being made up of "all mature classics"? Hamtaro? A "mature classic"? Seriously? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I figured someone who makes wall posts out of the smallest details would be able to read what is being placed before them?
And nearly all these are "mature" shows.
Either way. The point is that those shows are all mother fucking classics. To say otherwise is to be revisionist of history. Either someone personally likes them or not is another story.

Ninja Scroll is a classic even if I think it's personally shit.

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Kunzait_83
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:29 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
No one? What is this then?

NSFW warning.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5exq ... roll15.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1pGtXcfmabs/T ... e-down.jpg
http://blog.alltheanime.com/wp-content/ ... 00-375.jpg

Whatever you want to call it, you don't draw these scenes like that if you're not trying to make people horny. This ain't a serious portrayal of rape, it's there to be horny.
The first two images are taken from what is a fairly disturbing and grotesque rape scene in the film. While there are certainly are some first-class sickos out there who get off to even the most vile depictions of rape in media, they in NO way constitute an overall majority of people broadly speaking.

Kagero's rape scene is in NO way animated or depicted in a way that is remotely intended to get any sane, rational audience anywhere within lightyears of horny. The scene is stark, silent, and sickening as Tessai basically uses her prone body like an inanimate object (which ends up tying into a whole broader theme with Kagero's entire self-loathing psychology/self-image) while she's unconscious: and the look of horror and shame on her face when waking up to it is nausea-inducing and the stuff of nightmares.

I've watched this anime, including this scene with plenty of different people/audiences over the decades (including some fairly young, healthily sexual guys): and the reaction has ALWAYS unanimously been one of PROFOUND discomfort and fear/sadness for the female character rather than anything within lightyears of "aroused" by what's happening to her.

I'm sorry, but someone who sees a scene like this as "titillating" or "erotic"... its far, FAR more indicative of something PROFOUNDLY and DEEPLY fucked up and badly broken that's going on within them personally than it is ANYTHING that is demonstrable within the scene in question in terms of how its directed, staged, and animated. By this metric, the rape scene in something like The Accused may as well also be tagged as "titillating" and "solely there to get the audience horny". Its a patently ridiculous, asinine, and frankly downright disturbingly warped reading of a scene who's basic intent is pretty damn obvious and in no way subtle.

I've seen PLENTY of examples of anime/Hentai where rape is depicted and used as a means of purposefully titillating and getting the audience aroused (something like La Blue Girl or Venus 5 springs to mind): and this AIN'T it. At all. This is played 100% for stark, queasy horror. And it further is part of a broader point with regards to Kagero, who has a fairly heartbreaking and complex character arc throughout the anime.

If you're someone who watches a scene like this and reads it as even VAGUELY arousing and erotic: by all means, seek professional help ASAP.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
I don't like overly violent shows. I personally think that the glorification of these gorefests is troubling. That's a whole other topic though.
Image

Seriously though, there's SO many examples of works throughout film, television, and literature that use violence to outstanding and compelling effect that I don't even know where to begin listing them all.

This is basically just textbook prudish pearl-clutching of a similar kind expressed by parental/moral watchdog groups that have blamed things like violent video games, movies, and comic books for the "moral decay" of society for the past half century or so.

Image

Ninja Scroll isn't snuff, nor is it a glorification of sexual violence against women: if you walk away from the anime's stark and unflattering depiction of sexual violence and the cultural objectifying of women by men in positions of power within its period setting and seeing it as in any which way a "celebration" or "glorification" of it, then I simply don't know what else to tell you other than that is an ABSURDLY fucking deranged and ludicrous reading of the material to the nth possible degree.

Similarly, Ninja Scroll's gory sword violence is hardly even VAGUELY more outlandish than just about almost ANYTHING you'd see in most ANY given Chanbara works in existence. Its maybe a hair more severe than a typical Masaki Kobayashi film of this kind. I mean what, by this logic are we also gonna decry the blood-soaked violence in something like Kurosawa's Throne of Blood or in Lone Wolf and Cub as "a deeply troubling glorification of violence" as well?

This is little more than just a boilerplate standard conservative/reactionary view of violence in media, and one that's been explored and debunked to death a billion times over throughout the past half century (at a minimum) by people who are countless orders of magnitude smarter and better read/written than my dumb, college-dropout ass.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Can't say I agree at all being that women are being put on display getting raped for titulation. That's worse than any fan service those shows offered. If anything the women in Ninja Scroll are one dimensional and just there as rewards and motivations for the male characters.
There are three major female characters in Ninja Scroll: Benisato, Zakuro, and Kagero. Literally all of ZERO of them are used in ANY which way as "rewards" for ANY of the male characters. Not even REMOTELY.

Zakuro is the jealous, spurned third wheel in a bisexual love triangle among the villains (she's spiteful and viscous, but is in no way presented as a "reward" for anyone), Benisato is simply one of Jubei's seven main opponents that he faces (and yes, she's often nude, and its really the only nudity in the whole movie that seems to largely be there gratuitously just for its own sake; though her moving full-body tattoos are certainly a striking and memorable image), and Kagero is an incredibly fleshed out and well developed character who's romantic feelings for Jubei are in NO WAY depicted with her acting as his "reward".

If anything, we mainly and primarily view the romance between them from squarely HER perspective, rather than Jubei's and we get WAY more insight into how it affects her relative to how it affects Jubei. And insofar as how their romance does impact Jubei: at one point late in the film, Jubei is given a VERY compelling and valid reason to have sex with Kagero (doing so would literally, physically save his own life from a fatal poison)... and purposefully turns it down (at the long-term eventual cost of his own life) specifically because he doesn't see her as a sexual tool/object, knows and is conscious of the fact that that's how she's largely been treated by men her whole life, and refuses to further play into that dynamic, valuing her self-respect as a woman/human being above his own life and physical safety.

Basically the movie actively goes out of its fucking way to COMPLETELY subvert and avoid making Kagero into Jubei's "romantic reward" in the end, with Jubei instead showing a profound level of respect for Kagero's agency and humanity, to the point where he literally gives up his life-saving antidote in his regard for it: because Kagero to him is a human being and NOT just an antidote to the poison, nor a sexual object to be used and discarded like so many have before him.

At this point, I'm genuinely questioning whether or not you've ever actually even SEEN this anime at all in the first place: because based on this completely absurd and made-up description of "all the female characters are there as rewards for the men", I'm finding it increasingly unlikely you've either actually sat down and watched this, or if you did that you barely paid any actual attention to it.

Benisato's nudity is literally the ONE SOLE piece of female sexuality that is used at ANY point in the whole anime to titillate in the slightest (and its often fleeting, at best). Beyond this, there's Kagero's rape (which I'd already gone over) and another scene where Kagero is forced to watch her clan's Chamberlain have sex with one of his concubines while she's reporting to him. This scene, much like the rape scene, is played as discomforting and clinical rather than in ANY which way eroticized or titillating.

Rather than arousing or "hot", the Chamberlain's fucking of his concubine is shown as dispassionate, mechanical, and largely sleazy and gross: he doesn't even register so much as an ounce of pleasure or enjoyment on his face at any point in the scene, and seems to get on with the task almost like its a requisite chore, while the concubine's moans of ecstasy are transparently fake and overdone as a performance for the Chamberlain's amusement.

Much like Kagero in her prior rape, the concubine is simply being used as a sex object by the politically powerful Chamberlain, as a display of his power and status. Coming right on the heels of Kagero's rape scene, again there are actual purposeful themes of sexual shame, self-loathing, and the cold and detached use of women as commodities rather than people that are at play in both this scene and in pretty much all of the sexual scenes featuring Kagero throughout the anime.

None of these are in any which way gratuitous and serve a very specific narrative and character function that play into Kagero's entire character arc throughout the anime. They are GREATLY uncomfortable scenes to watch, yes, but they're supposed to be. In both scenes, you are put SQUARELY in the shoes and perspective of Kagero (the anime's female lead) rather than that of the sexually predatory men that she's dealing with. The film is in NO way taking the side or perspective either Tessai nor the Chamberlain (nor Shijima later in the film), as the audience is AT ALL TIMES in the woman's perspective and views every single scene of sexual violence and abuse through the woman's lens rather than that of the men's.

Tessai isn't the character we were previously following or introduced to earlier in the movie: Kagero is. Tessai is little more than a thug under Gemma's employ. We don't know much about him (nor do we need to), other than he's imposing, barbaric, and viscous. Kagero we get to know and like and root for throughout the film. We also get to know deeply her self-hating image of herself as little more than a sexual tool/device to be used by the powerful political factions she works for, and we follow throughout the film her gradual and subtle change from bitter self-resignation to this role to a fleeting moment of genuine empowerment and happiness with herself before she meets her ultimate, tragic fate.

When Kagero is violated by Tessai, the audience FEELS her terror and feels the ensuing guilt/shame she undergoes in the aftermath (the scene of her cradling herself in the grass afterward after Jubei leaves is one of the most powerful and emotionally harrowing moments in the entire anime). And the worst part is, its heavily implied full well that this was hardly the first time she's been made to undergo and deal with this type of abuse, and she more or less heavily suggests that she's been used in this fashion for basically her entire life.

Its not at all an accident that Tessai is shown disturbingly playing with her limp, unconscious body - almost doll-like - for much of the rape scene: this is very much an apt visual representation of Kagero's entire inner-shame and objectification (not to mention that of women overall within the film's brutal, bleak, and unromanticized depiction of Edo-era Japan) that's at the heart of her whole character throughout the movie (and that she ultimately, albeit in very bittersweet fashion, emotionally rises above in her last moments).

Its gross, sick, degrading, dehumanizing, and utterly fucking horrible to watch: but again that's what its supposed to be. That's how almost ANY rape scene should feel and be portrayed as in any given work, because that's what rape ultimately IS. And its shown here as much the polar diametric exact opposite of literally anything even remotely resembling anything the least bit "titillating" or "arousing" in a sexual act: at least for anyone with an actual conscience or a semblance of basic humanity and empathy anyway.

Subsequently, we're then made to witness the Chamberlain's dismissively casual and callous humping of his concubine through, once again, Kagero's perspective immediately following her being raped by Tessai. The emotion we're meant to feel, beyond that of uncomfortable awkwardness, is the bitter shame and abject outrage via Kagero's visible and palpably visceral disgust, contempt, and rage that's boiling inside her throughout this scene - mixed with a healthy dose of shame, self-hate, and resignation - at the horribly degrading societal station that she (and by extension, most of the women in this world) are forced to occupy: as embodied by her boss' casual use of his sex slave, which is meant to purposefully be directly compared and overlapped with Kagero's rape in the previous scene.

There is literally ZERO room in these scenes WHATSOEVER for these acts of sexual violence and abuse to be viewed within a ZILLION MILES of a lens of "Oooh baby, that's hot!" Almost all of the visual/artistic choices made within them regarding the depictions of sexual violence are 100% narrative, character, and thematically-driven, full-stop.

Within JUST THESE TWO SCENES back to back, there is SO MUCH going on, in terms of emotions, themes, characterization, etc. Within a couple of (incredibly brutal and blunt) scenes relatively early in the movie, we get a very horrible and vivid picture painted of the overall role/societal station in this world for that of women and particularly as it pertains to this one character, her inward clonflicting feelings and views of it, and we are instantly made to empathize with her and root for her to overcome her self-hatred and rediscover some measure of self-respect and dignity as a person.

Its harsh and unflinching and not at all pleasing to watch, but its also incredibly economical and emotionally powerful storytelling. Its all conveyed SUBTLY through both character actions, through directorial framing, and through facial expressions & visual "acting" from the characters, rather than ANY expository or descriptive words uttered whatsoever. Indeed, there are barely any lines at all within these two scenes, other than some (sexually disturbing & horrifying) threats from Tessai during the rape, some brief but tense banter between Jubei and Kagero immediately afterward, and the Chamberlain boredly & dispassionately rattling off orders for Kagero's next mission while she watches him with his "servant" in the next scene.

None of the scant dialogue that's present within these scenes at ANY point ever describes the REAL story that's actually going on and being told within them (purely visually/contextually to the audience), which is the setting up of the gender/sexual dynamics that are at the center of Kagero's entire story arc and role throughout the film.

THIS right here is a PERFECT example of the clear and stark difference between a work/story aimed at children and one that's aimed at older/adult audiences: both in terms of psychological/political themes, as well as in terms of general execution.

And moreover, there are clearly and obviously some VERY nuanced and thoughtful gender and sexual dynamics at play within the anime's two main characters and overall narrative (that are ultimately when it comes down to it, firmly on the side of women being seen as nuanced human beings rather than as sex objects for the amusement of men).

Indeed, I find it baffling how ANY of this can be so thoroughly missed, since the movie spends a LOT of its time with Jubei and Kagero fleshing this stuff out (albeit largely wordlessly and through character actions with only some key pieces of dialogue: its not a movie that hits you over the head with clunky exposition, apart from some of the details from its political subplots), which is why I'm genuinely wondering whether or not you've ever actually either watched the movie, or if you did, how much actual attention you gave it. And its not like Ninja Scroll is some super art house, existential work of profound depth on the level of a Fellini film or anything remotely all that challenging.

Frankly, much of what you're postulating about it is SO far removed and detached from its actual content that it kind of reeks of having thoughtlessly prejudged the movie on a super-shallow surface level from a self-righteously moralizing high horse (i.e. "there's filthy sex & violence in it, ergo it is inherently trash that is beneath me and unworthy of any critical engagement") rather than actively engaging with its actual content.

Though that having been said, as far as the female characters "being used as motivation for the male characters" goes... yes, I do certainly think its largely a fault of the film's that the ultimate conclusion of Kagero's (otherwise beautifully well executed, thoughtful, and moving) arc ends up in its aftermath resulting largely in motivating Jubei to his final confrontation with Gemma at the anime's climax. That's a perfectly valid and legitimate criticism and one that I've made of the anime myself several times in the past.

But even with its noted flaws (as I said, its hardly a spotless work of perfection and has plenty of room for critique), your overall reduction of the - generally nuanced and thoughtful (though certainly flawed and lacking in some areas) - sexual themes inherent in Ninja Scroll display a complete inability and/or unwillingness to seriously engage with the themes and ideas that the movie is presenting, because you have a personal discomfort with graphic content that is WHOLLY ON YOU PERSONALLY and NOT on the movie itself or what its trying to convey.

There is a VAST universe of difference between "This movie contains themes and ideas that are poorly conveyed, and/or are inherently and innately awful, vapid, and retrograde" and "This movie made me feel personally uncomfortable". Those are NOT the same thing and should NOT be equated in the way that you are equating them here, as it does a gross disservice to works that actually aim to tackle difficult or taboo subjects in a genuinely worthwhile or compelling way and reinforces an overly conservative, censoring mindset of "this concept, theme, or idea is inherently off-limits and must ALWAYS be avoided and looked down upon as puerile no matter what because it makes me personally feel icky".

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
In what world if Big O, Kenshin, Outlaw Star a children show? Did you even watch these? Do you understand what they explore?

The society aspect of Big O is fucking insane and what is real and what is illusion, right or wrong.

Outlaw Star is simply not for kids that should be obvious.
First of all: yes I have seen these shows. No however, most of them don't explore themes that are NEARLY as awe-inspiringly deep or profound as you're making them out to be.

That having been said though: Big O certainly is indeed aimed at an adult (or at least older) audience to the best of my knowledge. Outlaw Star I'm honestly not sure of offhand (if it is, then that's fine obviously).

Literally ALL of the other titles you listed though, yes, are CHILDREN'S anime. That isn't my opinion, that is FACTUAL per their actual target demographic in Japan.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Kenshin in general is about a huge self reflection and a mature tale of forgiving oneself.
Kenshin is very much still a children's anime. I'm sorry to break this to you, but its from a manga that was printed within the same exact publication as Dragon Ball, Yu Gi Oh, Yu Yu Hakusho, One Piece, Naruto, etc. Kenshin is a Weekly Shonen Jump series: its audience - both as a manga and an anime - is that of grade school, prepubescent young boys. That's its core demo. That's an absolute, iron-clad fact. There's literally NO arguing with that.

Its 100% fine to still like it of course at any age: anyone is obviously free to like anything they damn well please. And I myself, contrary to how my posts tend to be seen on here, obviously like more than a fair few WSJ titles myself (not least of which the very one that we're all primarily here posting about). But no matter how much you may like Kenshin or how "deep" it may come across to you... its ultimately a young children's manga & anime when all is said and done. Full stop.

And frankly, its own similar themes (hearkening to classic Ronin Chanbara archetypes of masterless Japanese swordsmen with checkered, shady pasts and sorrowful regrets) are both WELL worn and trodden territory (if not outright cliches) within the Jidaigeki/Chanbara genre, and furthermore are VASTLY better and more deeply explored within TONS of ultimately more culturally significant and intellectually denser works. Kenshin is in NO way a unique or particularly special type of story within Japanese media: its kind and like are INCREDIBLY commonplace as their own entire genre throughout Japanese media (much like Wuxia is within Chinese and East Asian media overall).

And much like how Dragon Ball is hardly the be-all, end-all of Wuxia/Chinese-style martial arts fantasy stories... neither is Kenshin the be-all, end-all of Jidaigeki/Samurai stories (even just within anime and manga). For a children's entry into the genre, its fairly well executed obviously, and I don't really have much of anything negative to say about it in and of itself. Its a perfectly fine enough story for its type, and Trust & Betrayal in particular is masterfully executed (while also containing a very similar level of gore & violence as Ninja Scroll: funny how that's conveniently not a problem HERE though :think: :shh: ).

But that being said: its hardly a particularly noteworthy masterwork within its own genre, and there are PLENTY of other stories of its ilk (just within the realm of anime & manga ALONE, nevermind out within the further realm of other media, particularly literary and live action film & TV) that present just as, if not VASTLY more, richer and denser stories and characters. That's not even a particularly unique opinion from me: most fans of Jidaigeki/Chanbara material will amost overwhelmingly likely express a very similar viewpoint.

My only real issue with Kenshin has nothing to do really with the title itself, and more to do with its wider North American perception among die-hard Cartoon Network anime fans as being somehow uniquely outstanding and original as a work of Samurai fiction, when in reality it is simply one of the few if not ONLY works of Samurai fiction that such fans ever even bother to try and explore or expose themselves to.

There's nothing wrong obviously with only exploring just one lone entry into any particular genre, but its certainly annoying and bothersome when it being the sole, lone example of a genre entry that a certain set of people have actually been exposed to or explored is somehow also mistaken by them for it being either uniquely the ONLY of its kind, or otherwise somehow the absolute pinnacle best of its kind, despite said-audience having little to no exposure to anything else within its wheelhouse.

Kenshin is perfectly solid (and sometimes occasionally flirts with being legitimately great at times) but there's still a GIGANTIC universe of other Samurai stories out there (literally decades if not centuries worth) with very similar themes, character-types, and ideas that are, in a great many cases, VASTLY better executed and better explored overall. Path of the Assassin, Lone Wolf and Cub, Lady Snowblood, Dagger of Kamui, Vagabond, etc. just to name a few off the cuff within the realm of anime and manga.

And outside anime & manga, there's virtually the entire back catalog of Akira Kurosawa, Masaki Kobayashi, Kenji Misumi, Hideo Gosha, and on and on and on and on and on. And most of these examples, unlike Kenshin, tend to be aimed at MUCH older audiences than Kenshin and tend to tackle their themes and concepts with a GREAT deal more nuance and depth by comparison. Similar to how Dragon Ball is pretty featherweight itself within the grander scheme of Wuxia overall.

Kenshin's perfectly fine, but its much more "baby's first Jidaigeki" than it is some standout, outstanding, culturally significant classic of the genre (and once again, that's not a particularly unique opinion or take on it within the broader audience of Chanbara fiction). I don't have much of a problem with it, but I do have a problem with the absurd pedestal that its often placed on largely by people (primarily within Cartoon Network/Toonami spaces) who either don't know or don't care that there exists FAR more (and far better) of its kind out there and portray Kenshin as if its the only Kidaigeki anime/manga that's ever mattered.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Wing goes hella into politics it isn't just some kids show lol.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gundam Wing's politics are roughly about as shallow, obvious, and idiotic as those of the Star Wars prequels. Its literally THE textbook example of EXACTLY the kind of "faux-deep and faux-mature nonsense idiocy for 13 year old boys who are trying too hard to appear grown up and intellectual" that so many people in this community are usually so hyper-vigilant and trigger-happy about decrying (but conveniently never do when it happens to be some sacred cow Toonami title like this one).

Wing's vapid stupidity is particularly all the more egregious and glaring within the overall larger lineage of Gundam titles, some of which explore Gundam's usual pet "war is hell" political themes with a FAR greater degree of depth, impact, and substance (such as War in the Pocket or 08th MS Team). As it stands, Wing is little more than the cringingly overwrought, melodramatic angsting of shrieking, wailing middle school boy pilots who act as EXACTLY the sort of thinly-veiled power fantasies for the show's grade school-age audience that vastly superior and more ambitious Gundam titles like War in the Pocket specifically aim to subvert and take the piss out of.

And yes, Gundam Wing, once again, is a goddamn kids' show. Its ALWAYS been a kids' show. That's not my opinion: that's the stone cold fact of its native Japanese target demographic (the fucking show was practically made to sell toys for fuck's sake). Its "political themes" (such as they are) being as shallow and paper-thin as they are makes the fact that it was made for 3rd grade children even more apparent and glaring. People here being blown away by it as children IN NO WAY reverses the reality of its actual target demo that it was written/created for.

Gundam Wing isn't an anime made for adults just because it has (laughably idiotic) attempts at "political intrigue" any more than Dragon Ball or Naruto are examples of anime that are made for adults just because their characters can bleed and die. Once again, the Toonami audience being so ridiculously media-sheltered that these (largely standard Japanese children's) shows were enough to blow their socks off as kids doesn't somehow alter the reality of their actual Japanese production, marketing, and target demographics.

As I always note for the sake of perspective: Fist of the North Star (in all of its brain-exploding, graphically gore-soaked, raping and marauding biker punks, post-nuclear war Mad Max glory) was ALSO a manga & anime aimed at the very same demographic of grade school-aged small children in Japan as Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, One Piece, Yu Gi Oh, and yes even Kenshin.

Japan not treating its children like fragile china glass in terms of their media diets doesn't therefore mean that their kids' shows aren't in fact still kids' shows at the end of the day. And that very much indeed goes for about 98% of the anime that aired on Toonami, certainly at least back during its pre-revival heyday.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Either way. The point is that those shows are all mother fucking classics. To say otherwise is to be revisionist of history. Either someone personally likes them or not is another story.
Dragon Ball, Ruroni Kenshin, and Yu Yu Hakusho are the only titles you listed that I would agree are generally seen (love them or hate them) as classics. The others... not really. Not outside of the VERY insular realm of diehard Toonami/Cartoon Network fans at least.

Gundam Wing is SOMEWHAT looked back on fondly within broader fandom (globally I mean), but is hardly regarded as a Capital C Classic the way that the original Mobile Suit Gundam series is, and indeed Wing also has more than its fair share of detractors (of which I'm certainly one of).

Even more egregiously, G Gundam was widely (and justifiably) DESPISED for YEARS as absolute garbage until the Toonami audience embraced it many years after the fact. To this day, nostalgic Cartoon Network stans largely remain the primary torch-carriers of that particular series, and beyond that maybe a scattered few hardcore mecha fanboys. Its still regarded largely as a black sheep overall within the broader Gundam audience.

Big O has a passionate as all hell fanbase... but its largely within the realm of, once again, die hard Cartoon Network fans. It doesn't seem to have nearly as much of a footprint beyond that: hell, the only reason it had a "2nd season" at all was because Cartoon Network sought out the original creators and helped to fund it, since the show was FAR more popular on Toonami than it EVER was in Japan (where it actually bombed) or anywhere else in the world.

And Outlaw Star is FAR more of a cult/niche hit than it is an outright classic-classic, even within anime circles. And I say that as someone who likes it a decently good deal myself.

And Hamtaro... does ANYONE, anywhere actually, sincerely, and unironincally give a flying fuck about Hamtaro? Like, seriously? If so, that's pretty depressing.

My snark on Hamtaro aside, my above appraisals there certainly aren't about whether or not I personally like or don't like any of these titles. There's a good deal of anime that I personally either couldn't really care less about ultimately (like Saint Seiya) or regard as absolutely unwatchable, brain-rotting sewage (like Pokemon) that are, like it or not, unquestionably iconic and notably important or landmark. And I'm certainly MUCH more fond of and partial to something like Outlaw Star for example than I am plenty of other examples of otherwise much more widely popular and "iconic" titles that I don't really happen to care for or respect.

Other than a handful of notable exceptions though, most of what you listed simply AREN'T really seen (within wider, broader anime circles) as the kind of indispensable, cornerstone classics that you, or other people within the Cartoon Network-sphere, might think they are. Something that doesn't generally get brought up enough is how much of their own heavily filtered bubble much of the diehard audience for Cartoon Network/Toonami anime titles often tend to view things or operate within themselves.

For example, I don't think I've EVER seen Big O (which I have nothing remotely against personally) come up very often within any anime discussions that aren't firmly rooted among primarily Cartoon Network enthusiasts. Likewise, I cannot stress enough how virulently LOATHED G Gundam was for over a decade+ until Toonami basically all but single-handedly rehabilitated it by introducing it to a whole new audience who had none of the preconceptions or baggage of older Gundam fans from before.

Point being, the lens of anime as viewed through the diehard Cartoon Network/Toonami audience is INCREDIBLY skewed and not at all totally in line with that of anime audiences as a broader, international whole. Its very much a bubble, one with its own oeuvre of "important classics" and its own heavily skewed & filtered "revision of history" that certainly isn't at all nearly 100% in line with that of bigger tapestry of anime as a broader medium beyond CN/Toonami's particular Western/English language niche.
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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:25 am

Gundam Wing didn't deal with politics with any degree of depth or sophistication. It's biggest statement on the matter is "peace good, war bad." What interests me in this whole conversation is the type of material that's considered acceptable to kids in different cultures. I would not be going out on a limb to say most of American children's programming doesn't aim high enough. It seems like much of the content on Toonami was originally aimed at a younger Japanese audience, but American children's programming standards make it seem like those same series are aimed at an older demographic. Damn our puritanical roots!
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:43 am

Yeah, I've always hated this idea that Japanese shonen anime are more adult just because they are more violent than American stuff.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:44 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:25 am
Gundam Wing didn't deal with politics with any degree of depth or sophistication. It's biggest statement on the matter is "peace good, war bad."
"War sucks" is pretty much THE predominant and defining theme/sentiment of Gundam as a franchise (or at least its ostensibly supposed to be: it kinda falls off further and further in some of the more tangential, non-UC series & spinoffs): its hardly a profound statement obviously, but its one that's made to FAR infinitely better and more impactful/meaningful effect in other Gundam series (again, I cannot praise and gush enough over War in the Pocket: its phenomenal and still probably the single best thing to ever come out of the entire Gundam franchise, hands down): certainly a DAMN sight better than in fucking Gundam Wing, which as an anime is literally the personification of a Linkin Park or Evanescence song (with all the shallow, insipid "13 year old scribbling overwrought, emo attempts at poetry in his notebook" levels of faux-profundity and absolute cringe that comes with such a comparison).

ABED wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:25 am
What interests me in this whole conversation is the type of material that's considered acceptable to kids in different cultures. I would not be going out on a limb to say most of American children's programming doesn't aim high enough. It seems like much of the content on Toonami was originally aimed at a younger Japanese audience, but American children's programming standards make it seem like those same series are aimed at an older demographic. Damn our puritanical roots!
This is pretty much EXACTLY spot on and succinctly gets right to the heart of discussions like these.

American kids' cartoons (both in general, and particularly back during the 80s and 90s) have historically tended to be SO overwhelmingly watered down into gutter-level nothingness (both in terms of onscreen content, as well as in terms of themes, concepts, subject matter, and ideas tackled), that the kids' cartoons from a culture that, by comparison, treats its children with VASTLY greater degrees of basic-most respect for their intelligence simply come across to American kids like the most mind-blowingly transgressive art house masterworks in existence by comparison.

They're not obviously and are certainly far from it (though anime is certainly home to the real McCoy within those more legitimately mature & genuinely ambitious realms: you just generally aren't going to find very many of them on Cartoon Network or adapted from the pages of Weekly Shonen Jump, either then or now), they're simply more closer to what children's programming SHOULD be aiming to go for as a broader cultural standard worldwide, since there's nothing about Japanese children that makes them innately or inherently smarter or more capable of handling more mature themes and concepts than American children, or children from any other corner of the world.

Japanese culture simply tends to give their kids much more of the benefit of the doubt, relatively speaking.

Though as with anything, even with Japanese children's material being as overall comparatively less stupid/reigned in as they often are from a lot of our kids' media (though even that's hardly always a given of course, as there's still some REALLY braindead Japanese kids' shows, even by American standards), its one thing to still hang onto a few of these when you grow up, but at the same time you really SHOULDN'T be hanging your hat solely, entirely, or largely on these kinds of kids' shows, and really, REALLY should be broadening out into more actually adult-driven material by the time you're at least a teenager (much less when you hit your 20s and 30s).

And by that same token:
8000 Saiyan wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:43 am
Yeah, I've always hated this idea that Japanese shonen anime are more adult just because they are more violent than American stuff.
"More adult" isn't in any way the right word, but on a relatively broad-ish level, Shonen anime at the very least tends to be (VERY relatively mind you) more sophisticated than most American cartoons. Again, there's gradation for sure (some examples of American kids' cartoons that are much more sophisticated than the norm, and some Japanese Shonen anime that are particularly more vapid and moronic than usual), but we're talking more on the overall average here.

But ultimately, its still fairly silly and pointless to quibble over which children's cartoons are more relatively "adult" than the other, since there's something else that is FAR more "adult" than any of them: actual adult works that are actually made for real adults.

They exist in anime in fairly great supply, and they exist in non-Japanese animation as well, albeit to frustratingly more limited degrees. But there are entire ENDLESS GALAXIES worth of worthwhile adult stories and material in other, non-animated media as well (including not just live action film and TV but also in, heaven forbid I know, the literary realm).

Thus, instead of getting into utterly embarrassing and sad dick-measuring contests with one another over who's preferred children's cartoon is relatively more grown-up seeming than the other person's, its possible instead to just, like I dunno: spend far more time and attention focusing more on exploring ACTUAL adult-aimed works in general instead! :o :o :o :o :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:19 am

We absolutely expect to little of kids media. Kids are like sponges, soaking up the world around them. Way too much kids programming effectively say "Who cares about the story not making any sense or the theme not being integrated well? It's just a kids show." Kids deserve better.

There's an episode of the original Transformers cartoon that shows a greater degree of sophistication than anything in Gundam Wing. After a long battle between the Autobots and Decepticons, the forest they were fighting in gets destroyed, and drives all the animals from their habitats. At the very end, one of the autobots sits on a rock and sighs, "Well, we won." meaning, we were victorious, but at too steep a price. That's not something you see in most cartoons. Gundam Wing paid lipservice to "war sucks", but then proceeds to entertain the audience with giant robot battles, so there's a large degree of cognitive dissonance.

I'm sympathetic to Kunzait's view that Toonami did likely skew American kids view of what anime is, but I also don't fault CN for embracing a brand identity. I'd be interested in studies that looked into this subject. How many kids got into anime through programming blocks like this and eventually went on to see more mature works.

Regardless, I don't know what Toonami's fate will be without DB, but its significance (for good or bad) is long since over. No matter how many people haven't cut the chord, the days of blocks like these being important are through. Like the Monday Night Wars in Wrestling, they aren't coming back because people's media habits are too different.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:26 am

ABED has climbed the list of my favorite Kanzenshuu members!
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Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:38 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:26 am
ABED has climbed the list of my favorite Kanzenshuu members!
He's cool with me now. I admittedly didn't like him when I was going through some things as I was swinging back at dudes in the community with my back against the wall but he seems like a real dude with some good points now with a relatively clear mind.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:44 am

Never thought I'd see someone give praise to an episode of Transformers G1 for showing sophistication. Sure, like most 80's cartoons, it was made to sell toys, but at least there were times where the writers were at least trying. But maybe I'm being too kind. I believe that even G.I. Joe sometimes tried to be sophisticated, although not to the same extent as the Larry Hama comics.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:26 am
ABED has climbed the list of my favorite Kanzenshuu members!
While I might not agree with some of the stuff he says, he's definitely a cool guy to have a conversation with.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:49 am

Thank you guys, I also think it has to do with maturing along the way. I'm now in my thirties and no longer feel the need to give my opinion and disagree about EVERYTHING since it's likely not worth the time, effort, and some aggravation. I don't think I'll change anyone's mind politically, so why interject. I'd much rather come here and discuss issues like this. Cultural differences and media habits. Hell, instead of being sad that it's only relatively recently that I found out the genre DB actually belongs to, I look at it as a learning opportunity.

Regarding the 80s cartoons used to sell toys not being sophisticated, I think much of that can be attributed to government guidelines imposed on those cartoons. If I recall, there were laws on the books years prior that banned companies from making cartoons that were basically just 30 minute toy commericals, but during the Reagan era deregulation, they got rid of some of those laws, but under the condition they had to impart lessons to kids, hence why you get explicit lectures at the end of GI Joe episodes.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:04 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:29 am
Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
No one? What is this then?

NSFW warning.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5exq ... roll15.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1pGtXcfmabs/T ... e-down.jpg
http://blog.alltheanime.com/wp-content/ ... 00-375.jpg

Whatever you want to call it, you don't draw these scenes like that if you're not trying to make people horny. This ain't a serious portrayal of rape, it's there to be horny.
The first two images are taken from what is a fairly disturbing and grotesque rape scene in the film. While there are certainly are some first-class sickos out there who get off to even the most vile depictions of rape in media, they in NO way constitute an overall majority of people broadly speaking.

Kagero's rape scene is in NO way animated or depicted in a way that is remotely intended to get any sane, rational audience anywhere within lightyears of horny. The scene is stark, silent, and sickening as Tessai basically uses her prone body like an inanimate object (which ends up tying into a whole broader theme with Kagero's entire self-loathing psychology/self-image) while she's unconscious: and the look of horror and shame on her face when waking up to it is nausea-inducing and the stuff of nightmares.

I've watched this anime, including this scene with plenty of different people/audiences over the decades (including some fairly young, healthily sexual guys): and the reaction has ALWAYS unanimously been one of PROFOUND discomfort and fear/sadness for the female character rather than anything within lightyears of "aroused" by what's happening to her.

I'm sorry, but someone who sees a scene like this as "titillating" or "erotic"... its far, FAR more indicative of something PROFOUNDLY and DEEPLY fucked up and badly broken that's going on within them personally than it is ANYTHING that is demonstrable within the scene in question in terms of how its directed, staged, and animated. By this metric, the rape scene in something like The Accused may as well also be tagged as "titillating" and "solely there to get the audience horny". Its a patently ridiculous, asinine, and frankly downright disturbingly warped reading of a scene who's basic intent is pretty damn obvious and in no way subtle.

I've seen PLENTY of examples of anime/Hentai where rape is depicted and used as a means of purposefully titillating and getting the audience aroused (something like La Blue Girl or Venus 5 springs to mind): and this AIN'T it. At all. This is played 100% for stark, queasy horror. And it further is part of a broader point with regards to Kagero, who has a fairly heartbreaking and complex character arc throughout the anime.

If you're someone who watches a scene like this and reads it as even VAGUELY arousing and erotic: by all means, seek professional help ASAP.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
I don't like overly violent shows. I personally think that the glorification of these gorefests is troubling. That's a whole other topic though.
Image

Seriously though, there's SO many examples of works throughout film, television, and literature that use violence to outstanding and compelling effect that I don't even know where to begin listing them all.

This is basically just textbook prudish pearl-clutching of a similar kind expressed by parental/moral watchdog groups that have blamed things like violent video games, movies, and comic books for the "moral decay" of society for the past half century or so.

Image

Ninja Scroll isn't snuff, nor is it a glorification of sexual violence against women: if you walk away from the anime's stark and unflattering depiction of sexual violence and the cultural objectifying of women by men in positions of power within its period setting and seeing it as in any which way a "celebration" or "glorification" of it, then I simply don't know what else to tell you other than that is an ABSURDLY fucking deranged and ludicrous reading of the material to the nth possible degree.

Similarly, Ninja Scroll's gory sword violence is hardly even VAGUELY more outlandish than just about almost ANYTHING you'd see in most ANY given Chanbara works in existence. Its maybe a hair more severe than a typical Masaki Kobayashi film of this kind. I mean what, by this logic are we also gonna decry the blood-soaked violence in something like Kurosawa's Throne of Blood or in Lone Wolf and Cub as "a deeply troubling glorification of violence" as well?

This is little more than just a boilerplate standard conservative/reactionary view of violence in media, and one that's been explored and debunked to death a billion times over throughout the past half century (at a minimum) by people who are countless orders of magnitude smarter and better read/written than my dumb, college-dropout ass.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Can't say I agree at all being that women are being put on display getting raped for titulation. That's worse than any fan service those shows offered. If anything the women in Ninja Scroll are one dimensional and just there as rewards and motivations for the male characters.
There are three major female characters in Ninja Scroll: Benisato, Zakuro, and Kagero. Literally all of ZERO of them are used in ANY which way as "rewards" for ANY of the male characters. Not even REMOTELY.

Zakuro is the jealous, spurned third wheel in a bisexual love triangle among the villains (she's spiteful and viscous, but is in no way presented as a "reward" for anyone), Benisato is simply one of Jubei's seven main opponents that he faces (and yes, she's often nude, and its really the only nudity in the whole movie that seems to largely be there gratuitously just for its own sake; though her moving full-body tattoos are certainly a striking and memorable image), and Kagero is an incredibly fleshed out and well developed character who's romantic feelings for Jubei are in NO WAY depicted with her acting as his "reward".

If anything, we mainly and primarily view the romance between them from squarely HER perspective, rather than Jubei's and we get WAY more insight into how it affects her relative to how it affects Jubei. And insofar as how their romance does impact Jubei: at one point late in the film, Jubei is given a VERY compelling and valid reason to have sex with Kagero (doing so would literally, physically save his own life from a fatal poison)... and purposefully turns it down (at the long-term eventual cost of his own life) specifically because he doesn't see her as a sexual tool/object, knows and is conscious of the fact that that's how she's largely been treated by men her whole life, and refuses to further play into that dynamic, valuing her self-respect as a woman/human being above his own life and physical safety.

Basically the movie actively goes out of its fucking way to COMPLETELY subvert and avoid making Kagero into Jubei's "romantic reward" in the end, with Jubei instead showing a profound level of respect for Kagero's agency and humanity, to the point where he literally gives up his life-saving antidote in his regard for it: because Kagero to him is a human being and NOT just an antidote to the poison, nor a sexual object to be used and discarded like so many have before him.

At this point, I'm genuinely questioning whether or not you've ever actually even SEEN this anime at all in the first place: because based on this completely absurd and made-up description of "all the female characters are there as rewards for the men", I'm finding it increasingly unlikely you've either actually sat down and watched this, or if you did that you barely paid any actual attention to it.

Benisato's nudity is literally the ONE SOLE piece of female sexuality that is used at ANY point in the whole anime to titillate in the slightest (and its often fleeting, at best). Beyond this, there's Kagero's rape (which I'd already gone over) and another scene where Kagero is forced to watch her clan's Chamberlain have sex with one of his concubines while she's reporting to him. This scene, much like the rape scene, is played as discomforting and clinical rather than in ANY which way eroticized or titillating.

Rather than arousing or "hot", the Chamberlain's fucking of his concubine is shown as dispassionate, mechanical, and largely sleazy and gross: he doesn't even register so much as an ounce of pleasure or enjoyment on his face at any point in the scene, and seems to get on with the task almost like its a requisite chore, while the concubine's moans of ecstasy are transparently fake and overdone as a performance for the Chamberlain's amusement.

Much like Kagero in her prior rape, the concubine is simply being used as a sex object by the politically powerful Chamberlain, as a display of his power and status. Coming right on the heels of Kagero's rape scene, again there are actual purposeful themes of sexual shame, self-loathing, and the cold and detached use of women as commodities rather than people that are at play in both this scene and in pretty much all of the sexual scenes featuring Kagero throughout the anime.

None of these are in any which way gratuitous and serve a very specific narrative and character function that play into Kagero's entire character arc throughout the anime. They are GREATLY uncomfortable scenes to watch, yes, but they're supposed to be. In both scenes, you are put SQUARELY in the shoes and perspective of Kagero (the anime's female lead) rather than that of the sexually predatory men that she's dealing with. The film is in NO way taking the side or perspective either Tessai nor the Chamberlain (nor Shijima later in the film), as the audience is AT ALL TIMES in the woman's perspective and views every single scene of sexual violence and abuse through the woman's lens rather than that of the men's.

Tessai isn't the character we were previously following or introduced to earlier in the movie: Kagero is. Tessai is little more than a thug under Gemma's employ. We don't know much about him (nor do we need to), other than he's imposing, barbaric, and viscous. Kagero we get to know and like and root for throughout the film. We also get to know deeply her self-hating image of herself as little more than a sexual tool/device to be used by the powerful political factions she works for, and we follow throughout the film her gradual and subtle change from bitter self-resignation to this role to a fleeting moment of genuine empowerment and happiness with herself before she meets her ultimate, tragic fate.

When Kagero is violated by Tessai, the audience FEELS her terror and feels the ensuing guilt/shame she undergoes in the aftermath (the scene of her cradling herself in the grass afterward after Jubei leaves is one of the most powerful and emotionally harrowing moments in the entire anime). And the worst part is, its heavily implied full well that this was hardly the first time she's been made to undergo and deal with this type of abuse, and she more or less heavily suggests that she's been used in this fashion for basically her entire life.

Its not at all an accident that Tessai is shown disturbingly playing with her limp, unconscious body - almost doll-like - for much of the rape scene: this is very much an apt visual representation of Kagero's entire inner-shame and objectification (not to mention that of women overall within the film's brutal, bleak, and unromanticized depiction of Edo-era Japan) that's at the heart of her whole character throughout the movie (and that she ultimately, albeit in very bittersweet fashion, emotionally rises above in her last moments).

Its gross, sick, degrading, dehumanizing, and utterly fucking horrible to watch: but again that's what its supposed to be. That's how almost ANY rape scene should feel and be portrayed as in any given work, because that's what rape ultimately IS. And its shown here as much the polar diametric exact opposite of literally anything even remotely resembling anything the least bit "titillating" or "arousing" in a sexual act: at least for anyone with an actual conscience or a semblance of basic humanity and empathy anyway.

Subsequently, we're then made to witness the Chamberlain's dismissively casual and callous humping of his concubine through, once again, Kagero's perspective immediately following her being raped by Tessai. The emotion we're meant to feel, beyond that of uncomfortable awkwardness, is the bitter shame and abject outrage via Kagero's visible and palpably visceral disgust, contempt, and rage that's boiling inside her throughout this scene - mixed with a healthy dose of shame, self-hate, and resignation - at the horribly degrading societal station that she (and by extension, most of the women in this world) are forced to occupy: as embodied by her boss' casual use of his sex slave, which is meant to purposefully be directly compared and overlapped with Kagero's rape in the previous scene.

There is literally ZERO room in these scenes WHATSOEVER for these acts of sexual violence and abuse to be viewed within a ZILLION MILES of a lens of "Oooh baby, that's hot!" Almost all of the visual/artistic choices made within them regarding the depictions of sexual violence are 100% narrative, character, and thematically-driven, full-stop.

Within JUST THESE TWO SCENES back to back, there is SO MUCH going on, in terms of emotions, themes, characterization, etc. Within a couple of (incredibly brutal and blunt) scenes relatively early in the movie, we get a very horrible and vivid picture painted of the overall role/societal station in this world for that of women and particularly as it pertains to this one character, her inward clonflicting feelings and views of it, and we are instantly made to empathize with her and root for her to overcome her self-hatred and rediscover some measure of self-respect and dignity as a person.

Its harsh and unflinching and not at all pleasing to watch, but its also incredibly economical and emotionally powerful storytelling. Its all conveyed SUBTLY through both character actions, through directorial framing, and through facial expressions & visual "acting" from the characters, rather than ANY expository or descriptive words uttered whatsoever. Indeed, there are barely any lines at all within these two scenes, other than some (sexually disturbing & horrifying) threats from Tessai during the rape, some brief but tense banter between Jubei and Kagero immediately afterward, and the Chamberlain boredly & dispassionately rattling off orders for Kagero's next mission while she watches him with his "servant" in the next scene.

None of the scant dialogue that's present within these scenes at ANY point ever describes the REAL story that's actually going on and being told within them (purely visually/contextually to the audience), which is the setting up of the gender/sexual dynamics that are at the center of Kagero's entire story arc and role throughout the film.

THIS right here is a PERFECT example of the clear and stark difference between a work/story aimed at children and one that's aimed at older/adult audiences: both in terms of psychological/political themes, as well as in terms of general execution.

And moreover, there are clearly and obviously some VERY nuanced and thoughtful gender and sexual dynamics at play within the anime's two main characters and overall narrative (that are ultimately when it comes down to it, firmly on the side of women being seen as nuanced human beings rather than as sex objects for the amusement of men).

Indeed, I find it baffling how ANY of this can be so thoroughly missed, since the movie spends a LOT of its time with Jubei and Kagero fleshing this stuff out (albeit largely wordlessly and through character actions with only some key pieces of dialogue: its not a movie that hits you over the head with clunky exposition, apart from some of the details from its political subplots), which is why I'm genuinely wondering whether or not you've ever actually either watched the movie, or if you did, how much actual attention you gave it. And its not like Ninja Scroll is some super art house, existential work of profound depth on the level of a Fellini film or anything remotely all that challenging.

Frankly, much of what you're postulating about it is SO far removed and detached from its actual content that it kind of reeks of having thoughtlessly prejudged the movie on a super-shallow surface level from a self-righteously moralizing high horse (i.e. "there's filthy sex & violence in it, ergo it is inherently trash that is beneath me and unworthy of any critical engagement") rather than actively engaging with its actual content.

Though that having been said, as far as the female characters "being used as motivation for the male characters" goes... yes, I do certainly think its largely a fault of the film's that the ultimate conclusion of Kagero's (otherwise beautifully well executed, thoughtful, and moving) arc ends up in its aftermath resulting largely in motivating Jubei to his final confrontation with Gemma at the anime's climax. That's a perfectly valid and legitimate criticism and one that I've made of the anime myself several times in the past.

But even with its noted flaws (as I said, its hardly a spotless work of perfection and has plenty of room for critique), your overall reduction of the - generally nuanced and thoughtful (though certainly flawed and lacking in some areas) - sexual themes inherent in Ninja Scroll display a complete inability and/or unwillingness to seriously engage with the themes and ideas that the movie is presenting, because you have a personal discomfort with graphic content that is WHOLLY ON YOU PERSONALLY and NOT on the movie itself or what its trying to convey.

There is a VAST universe of difference between "This movie contains themes and ideas that are poorly conveyed, and/or are inherently and innately awful, vapid, and retrograde" and "This movie made me feel personally uncomfortable". Those are NOT the same thing and should NOT be equated in the way that you are equating them here, as it does a gross disservice to works that actually aim to tackle difficult or taboo subjects in a genuinely worthwhile or compelling way and reinforces an overly conservative, censoring mindset of "this concept, theme, or idea is inherently off-limits and must ALWAYS be avoided and looked down upon as puerile no matter what because it makes me personally feel icky".

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
In what world if Big O, Kenshin, Outlaw Star a children show? Did you even watch these? Do you understand what they explore?

The society aspect of Big O is fucking insane and what is real and what is illusion, right or wrong.

Outlaw Star is simply not for kids that should be obvious.
First of all: yes I have seen these shows. No however, most of them don't explore themes that are NEARLY as awe-inspiringly deep or profound as you're making them out to be.

That having been said though: Big O certainly is indeed aimed at an adult (or at least older) audience to the best of my knowledge. Outlaw Star I'm honestly not sure of offhand (if it is, then that's fine obviously).

Literally ALL of the other titles you listed though, yes, are CHILDREN'S anime. That isn't my opinion, that is FACTUAL per their actual target demographic in Japan.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Kenshin in general is about a huge self reflection and a mature tale of forgiving oneself.
Kenshin is very much still a children's anime. I'm sorry to break this to you, but its from a manga that was printed within the same exact publication as Dragon Ball, Yu Gi Oh, Yu Yu Hakusho, One Piece, Naruto, etc. Kenshin is a Weekly Shonen Jump series: its audience - both as a manga and an anime - is that of grade school, prepubescent young boys. That's its core demo. That's an absolute, iron-clad fact. There's literally NO arguing with that.

Its 100% fine to still like it of course at any age: anyone is obviously free to like anything they damn well please. And I myself, contrary to how my posts tend to be seen on here, obviously like more than a fair few WSJ titles myself (not least of which the very one that we're all primarily here posting about). But no matter how much you may like Kenshin or how "deep" it may come across to you... its ultimately a young children's manga & anime when all is said and done. Full stop.

And frankly, its own similar themes (hearkening to classic Ronin Chanbara archetypes of masterless Japanese swordsmen with checkered, shady pasts and sorrowful regrets) are both WELL worn and trodden territory (if not outright cliches) within the Jidaigeki/Chanbara genre, and furthermore are VASTLY better and more deeply explored within TONS of ultimately more culturally significant and intellectually denser works. Kenshin is in NO way a unique or particularly special type of story within Japanese media: its kind and like are INCREDIBLY commonplace as their own entire genre throughout Japanese media (much like Wuxia is within Chinese and East Asian media overall).

And much like how Dragon Ball is hardly the be-all, end-all of Wuxia/Chinese-style martial arts fantasy stories... neither is Kenshin the be-all, end-all of Jidaigeki/Samurai stories (even just within anime and manga). For a children's entry into the genre, its fairly well executed obviously, and I don't really have much of anything negative to say about it in and of itself. Its a perfectly fine enough story for its type, and Trust & Betrayal in particular is masterfully executed (while also containing a very similar level of gore & violence as Ninja Scroll: funny how that's conveniently not a problem HERE though :think: :shh: ).

But that being said: its hardly a particularly noteworthy masterwork within its own genre, and there are PLENTY of other stories of its ilk (just within the realm of anime & manga ALONE, nevermind out within the further realm of other media, particularly literary and live action film & TV) that present just as, if not VASTLY more, richer and denser stories and characters. That's not even a particularly unique opinion from me: most fans of Jidaigeki/Chanbara material will amost overwhelmingly likely express a very similar viewpoint.

My only real issue with Kenshin has nothing to do really with the title itself, and more to do with its wider North American perception among die-hard Cartoon Network anime fans as being somehow uniquely outstanding and original as a work of Samurai fiction, when in reality it is simply one of the few if not ONLY works of Samurai fiction that such fans ever even bother to try and explore or expose themselves to.

There's nothing wrong obviously with only exploring just one lone entry into any particular genre, but its certainly annoying and bothersome when it being the sole, lone example of a genre entry that a certain set of people have actually been exposed to or explored is somehow also mistaken by them for it being either uniquely the ONLY of its kind, or otherwise somehow the absolute pinnacle best of its kind, despite said-audience having little to no exposure to anything else within its wheelhouse.

Kenshin is perfectly solid (and sometimes occasionally flirts with being legitimately great at times) but there's still a GIGANTIC universe of other Samurai stories out there (literally decades if not centuries worth) with very similar themes, character-types, and ideas that are, in a great many cases, VASTLY better executed and better explored overall. Path of the Assassin, Lone Wolf and Cub, Lady Snowblood, Dagger of Kamui, Vagabond, etc. just to name a few off the cuff within the realm of anime and manga.

And outside anime & manga, there's virtually the entire back catalog of Akira Kurosawa, Masaki Kobayashi, Kenji Misumi, Hideo Gosha, and on and on and on and on and on. And most of these examples, unlike Kenshin, tend to be aimed at MUCH older audiences than Kenshin and tend to tackle their themes and concepts with a GREAT deal more nuance and depth by comparison. Similar to how Dragon Ball is pretty featherweight itself within the grander scheme of Wuxia overall.

Kenshin's perfectly fine, but its much more "baby's first Jidaigeki" than it is some standout, outstanding, culturally significant classic of the genre (and once again, that's not a particularly unique opinion or take on it within the broader audience of Chanbara fiction). I don't have much of a problem with it, but I do have a problem with the absurd pedestal that its often placed on largely by people (primarily within Cartoon Network/Toonami spaces) who either don't know or don't care that there exists FAR more (and far better) of its kind out there and portray Kenshin as if its the only Kidaigeki anime/manga that's ever mattered.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Wing goes hella into politics it isn't just some kids show lol.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gundam Wing's politics are roughly about as shallow, obvious, and idiotic as those of the Star Wars prequels. Its literally THE textbook example of EXACTLY the kind of "faux-deep and faux-mature nonsense idiocy for 13 year old boys who are trying too hard to appear grown up and intellectual" that so many people in this community are usually so hyper-vigilant and trigger-happy about decrying (but conveniently never do when it happens to be some sacred cow Toonami title like this one).

Wing's vapid stupidity is particularly all the more egregious and glaring within the overall larger lineage of Gundam titles, some of which explore Gundam's usual pet "war is hell" political themes with a FAR greater degree of depth, impact, and substance (such as War in the Pocket or 08th MS Team). As it stands, Wing is little more than the cringingly overwrought, melodramatic angsting of shrieking, wailing middle school boy pilots who act as EXACTLY the sort of thinly-veiled power fantasies for the show's grade school-age audience that vastly superior and more ambitious Gundam titles like War in the Pocket specifically aim to subvert and take the piss out of.

And yes, Gundam Wing, once again, is a goddamn kids' show. Its ALWAYS been a kids' show. That's not my opinion: that's the stone cold fact of its native Japanese target demographic (the fucking show was practically made to sell toys for fuck's sake). Its "political themes" (such as they are) being as shallow and paper-thin as they are makes the fact that it was made for 3rd grade children even more apparent and glaring. People here being blown away by it as children IN NO WAY reverses the reality of its actual target demo that it was written/created for.

Gundam Wing isn't an anime made for adults just because it has (laughably idiotic) attempts at "political intrigue" any more than Dragon Ball or Naruto are examples of anime that are made for adults just because their characters can bleed and die. Once again, the Toonami audience being so ridiculously media-sheltered that these (largely standard Japanese children's) shows were enough to blow their socks off as kids doesn't somehow alter the reality of their actual Japanese production, marketing, and target demographics.

As I always note for the sake of perspective: Fist of the North Star (in all of its brain-exploding, graphically gore-soaked, raping and marauding biker punks, post-nuclear war Mad Max glory) was ALSO a manga & anime aimed at the very same demographic of grade school-aged small children in Japan as Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, One Piece, Yu Gi Oh, and yes even Kenshin.

Japan not treating its children like fragile china glass in terms of their media diets doesn't therefore mean that their kids' shows aren't in fact still kids' shows at the end of the day. And that very much indeed goes for about 98% of the anime that aired on Toonami, certainly at least back during its pre-revival heyday.

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm
Either way. The point is that those shows are all mother fucking classics. To say otherwise is to be revisionist of history. Either someone personally likes them or not is another story.
Dragon Ball, Ruroni Kenshin, and Yu Yu Hakusho are the only titles you listed that I would agree are generally seen (love them or hate them) as classics. The others... not really. Not outside of the VERY insular realm of diehard Toonami/Cartoon Network fans at least.

Gundam Wing is SOMEWHAT looked back on fondly within broader fandom (globally I mean), but is hardly regarded as a Capital C Classic the way that the original Mobile Suit Gundam series is, and indeed Wing also has more than its fair share of detractors (of which I'm certainly one of).

Even more egregiously, G Gundam was widely (and justifiably) DESPISED for YEARS as absolute garbage until the Toonami audience embraced it many years after the fact. To this day, nostalgic Cartoon Network stans largely remain the primary torch-carriers of that particular series, and beyond that maybe a scattered few hardcore mecha fanboys. Its still regarded largely as a black sheep overall within the broader Gundam audience.

Big O has a passionate as all hell fanbase... but its largely within the realm of, once again, die hard Cartoon Network fans. It doesn't seem to have nearly as much of a footprint beyond that: hell, the only reason it had a "2nd season" at all was because Cartoon Network sought out the original creators and helped to fund it, since the show was FAR more popular on Toonami than it EVER was in Japan (where it actually bombed) or anywhere else in the world.

And Outlaw Star is FAR more of a cult/niche hit than it is an outright classic-classic, even within anime circles. And I say that as someone who likes it a decently good deal myself.

And Hamtaro... does ANYONE, anywhere actually, sincerely, and unironincally give a flying fuck about Hamtaro? Like, seriously? If so, that's pretty depressing.

My snark on Hamtaro aside, my above appraisals there certainly aren't about whether or not I personally like or don't like any of these titles. There's a good deal of anime that I personally either couldn't really care less about ultimately (like Saint Seiya) or regard as absolutely unwatchable, brain-rotting sewage (like Pokemon) that are, like it or not, unquestionably iconic and notably important or landmark. And I'm certainly MUCH more fond of and partial to something like Outlaw Star for example than I am plenty of other examples of otherwise much more widely popular and "iconic" titles that I don't really happen to care for or respect.

Other than a handful of notable exceptions though, most of what you listed simply AREN'T really seen (within wider, broader anime circles) as the kind of indispensable, cornerstone classics that you, or other people within the Cartoon Network-sphere, might think they are. Something that doesn't generally get brought up enough is how much of their own heavily filtered bubble much of the diehard audience for Cartoon Network/Toonami anime titles often tend to view things or operate within themselves.

For example, I don't think I've EVER seen Big O (which I have nothing remotely against personally) come up very often within any anime discussions that aren't firmly rooted among primarily Cartoon Network enthusiasts. Likewise, I cannot stress enough how virulently LOATHED G Gundam was for over a decade+ until Toonami basically all but single-handedly rehabilitated it by introducing it to a whole new audience who had none of the preconceptions or baggage of older Gundam fans from before.

Point being, the lens of anime as viewed through the diehard Cartoon Network/Toonami audience is INCREDIBLY skewed and not at all totally in line with that of anime audiences as a broader, international whole. Its very much a bubble, one with its own oeuvre of "important classics" and its own heavily skewed & filtered "revision of history" that certainly isn't at all nearly 100% in line with that of bigger tapestry of anime as a broader medium beyond CN/Toonami's particular Western/English language niche.
You wrote this book just to say "Har har what I like is more mature because I like it more." You really should condense this shit in the future, this isn't the story of your life.

You don't draw characters flipped over and getting licked and raped and put on display if you aren't trying to objectify them to a audience. If you are going to write rape, have some fucking tact for it.

If we're being real for a second. Just because a show has rape or violence doesn't make that shit mature.

If all honesty Hamtaro is way more mature than Ninja Scroll because it actually teaches you shit about making friends, keeping friends, exploring self. Ninja Scroll is trash. Trashy trash.

Honestly the only skewed person here is you, you should get off your high horse. I'm sorry dubs, and particularly shows on Toonami offend who you are a person to the point you throw out these weird statements that feel petty.

And ngl? It shows quite a bit how naive your views are if you consider it "conservative" to be against graphic violence. Conservatives don't care about graphic violence, look at the drama regarding Last of Us 2 lol.

Also I'm quoting this just to show how ridiculously large that post is.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:41 pm

G Gundam
Gundam Wing
Outlaw Star
Dragon Ball
Ruroni Kenshin
Yu Yu Hakusho
Big O
Hamtaro
You said Ninja Scroll is gore porn and you consider Hamtaro is a classic anime? I know that's your opinion, but I'm like "WTF?!? :crazy: ". The shows that you posted are pretty good except for Hamtaro. However, 10 out of 30 something shows is not the best number in my opinion.
Kokonoe wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:04 am
And ngl? It shows quite a bit how naive your views are if you consider it "conservative" to be against graphic violence. Conservatives don't care about graphic violence, look at the drama regarding Last of Us 2 lol.
They do care since you have people like Trump and other republicans that think violent video games still cause mass shootings. You sound pretty conservative yourself by hating something that is violent and gross which is a major pet peeve of mine of this current generation. They will hate on something that is good art because it is sick and gross when it meant to be that way. Ninja Scroll does have a rape scene, but it is not added for fan service or anything like that. It is added for the story and plays a role the dangerous world in the series takes place in. It's like saying The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (2011) is bad and a rape fantasy for men because you see a women get rape in it.

Also, Kagero in Ninja Scroll is a good female character and is not used for sex. She has fought against a fair share of male enemies in the movie as well.
If all honesty Hamtaro is way more mature than Ninja Scroll because it actually teaches you shit about making friends, keeping friends, exploring self. Ninja Scroll is trash. Trashy trash.
None of those themes are mature. Having themes of friendship is as family friendly as you can. It's like saying Care Bears is more mature than A Clockwork Orange, Deer Hunter or American Psycho
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:35 pm

So, DBS ended. Anyone know about the ratings since then?

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:52 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:41 pm

G Gundam
Gundam Wing
Outlaw Star
Dragon Ball
Ruroni Kenshin
Yu Yu Hakusho
Big O
Hamtaro
You said Ninja Scroll is gore porn and you consider Hamtaro is a classic anime? I know that's your opinion, but I'm like "WTF?!? :crazy: ". The shows that you posted are pretty good except for Hamtaro. However, 10 out of 30 something shows is not the best number in my opinion.
Kokonoe wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:04 am
And ngl? It shows quite a bit how naive your views are if you consider it "conservative" to be against graphic violence. Conservatives don't care about graphic violence, look at the drama regarding Last of Us 2 lol.
They do care since you have people like Trump and other republicans that think violent video games still cause mass shootings. You sound pretty conservative yourself by hating something that is violent and gross which is a major pet peeve of mine of this current generation. They will hate on something that is good art because it is sick and gross when it meant to be that way. Ninja Scroll does have a rape scene, but it is not added for fan service or anything like that. It is added for the story and plays a role the dangerous world in the series takes place in. It's like saying The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (2011) is bad and a rape fantasy for men because you see a women get rape in it.

Also, Kagero in Ninja Scroll is a good female character and is not used for sex. She has fought against a fair share of male enemies in the movie as well.
If all honesty Hamtaro is way more mature than Ninja Scroll because it actually teaches you shit about making friends, keeping friends, exploring self. Ninja Scroll is trash. Trashy trash.
None of those themes are mature. Having themes of friendship is as family friendly as you can. It's like saying Care Bears is more mature than A Clockwork Orange, Deer Hunter or American Psycho
Oh so now I'm a Trumper because I think Ninja Scroll is trash?

LMAO

I'm done.

Fucking weebs.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:58 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:52 pm

Oh so now I'm a Trumper because I think Ninja Scroll is trash?

LMAO

I'm done.

Fucking weebs.
No, but you act like conservatives are not against violent media when they are. You didn't read what I wrote. It's fine not liking something, but you should have good reasons for it. Hating something because it is violent and sick is not a good criticism for something. Your ethos is dropped if you post silly shit like Hamtaro being mature. It reminds when I see people that say Digimon Tamers is more mature than Blade Runner.
Kokonoe wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 pm

I don't like overly violent shows. I personally think that the glorification of these gorefests is troubling. That's a whole other topic though.
It's fine if you don't like them, but I won't call them troubling. People who enjoy violent media don't do violent things to people. Someone liking Mortal Kombat is not going to make them into the next Ted Bundy. People who enjoy violent stuff knows it is fake and is not meant to promote real violence. Not to mention, violent media never really promotes hate speech or has real people get hurt or kill.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:07 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:58 pm
Kokonoe wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:52 pm

Oh so now I'm a Trumper because I think Ninja Scroll is trash?

LMAO

I'm done.

Fucking weebs.
No, but you act like conservatives are not against violent media when they are. You didn't read what I wrote. It's fine not liking something, but you should have good reasons for it. Hating something because it is violent and sick is not a good criticism for something. Your ethos is dropped if you post silly shit like Hamtaro being mature. It reminds when I see people that say Digimon Tamers is more mature than Blade Runner.
They aren't against violent media. They use it as a scapegoat for their REAL violence.

There's a big difference about them actually caring about people and them using it as a scapegoat.

And I don't give a flying fuck what you consider "good ethos" cause I'm already aware you come from some Kunzait discord as I've been informed by someone else where you circle jerk each other into oblivion over anime opinions.

In some bizarre world where Hamtaro is not a classic is what helps you sleep at night by all means.

I'm done with this topic and I'm done with you two people.

Get your last word in you won't getting one from me after this post.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by VDenter » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:47 pm

First time i have ever seen anyone make the claim that hamtaro is a classic. This is news to me. Guess standards have really fallen if something like that is considered a classic.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:08 pm

One of the greatest directors to ever live directed 4 Hamtaro movies, all of which owned in different ways. They are classic in the same way most of his other works are. Hamtaro is good in general anyways.

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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:09 pm

Kokonoe, you don't appear to be interested in genuine conversation, and have been removed for the time being. Things like "I'm quoting just to show how long this is" (along with, well, basically every other response you've had here) is a gross misrepresentation what conversation on Kanzenshuu should be.

The conversation has strayed far enough; while some of the tangents were relevant at one point in the conversation, they no longer are. Further action against other users will be taken if necessary.
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Re: Will Toonami survive without new Dragon Ball Content?

Post by UltraPrimus22 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:40 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:35 pm
So, DBS ended. Anyone know about the ratings since then?
There's a thread dedicated to the archiving and discussing of DBS's Nielson television rating on Toonam USA. The final episode (Episode 131) offered the highest ratings that the block (and Adult Swim in general) has had this year at the moment, with 911 million viewers and a 0.47 audience share among ages 18-49.

It was also the highest-rated scripted original of the Saturday Oct. 5 night, only being preceded by live sporting events and Live P.D.

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